The Film Debate Thread - #5: 'Zodiac'

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  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,503
    @thelivingroyale, want to give me your 'Alien'/'Aliens' debate idea? If not, does anyone have any other suggestions?
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited March 2013 Posts: 28,694
    Some film suggestions with open or ambiguous endings:

    Good Will Hunting

    Casablanca

    High Noon

    Zodiac

    Layer Cake

    The Dark Knight Rises
  • edited March 2013 Posts: 7,653
    Some film suggestions with open or ambiguous endings:

    Good Will Hunting

    Casablanca

    High Noon

    Zodiac

    Layer Cake

    The Dark Knight Rises this one has been talked to death on this site already so leave it out

    some worthy movies with the exception of the last. ;)

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    SaintMark wrote:
    Some film suggestions with open or ambiguous endings:

    Good Will Hunting

    Casablanca

    High Noon

    Zodiac

    Layer Cake

    The Dark Knight Rises this one has been talked to death on this site already so leave it out

    some worthy movies with the exception of the last. ;)

    Yeah, I actually agree with you a bit. I couldn't bear to read more people proclaiming that the ending is just a dream sequence. 8-|
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,503
    I like the choices, Brady. Unfortunately, though, none of the films are fresh in my mind, so let's go with 'Layer Cake' for now: post up your ambiguous questions, and let's dissect it. It's a great film.
  • edited March 2013 Posts: 2,081
    I love the idea of this thread. :)

    May I make a suggestion? Could the name of each film that gets debated be in big and bold letters so that it's easier to spot where new discussions start. Maybe then there would be no need for spoiler tags - people who haven't seen that particular film could skip to the next discussion easily if they so wish and maybe read the discussion later after watching if they're interested. I don't see why practically all discussion would need to be in spoiler tags, especially since they're not new films, anyway and there's a warning in the title.

    I loved the previous discussions (just read them) - made me want to watch all three films again, since I don't remember them that well.

    Sooooo.... what about Layer Cake? :)
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,503
    @Tuulia, so I suppose you mean to do so in the topic? If so, good idea! I'll edit both the title and the topic around once Brady gives me what he wants to discuss on the film. I'll make it look a bit more professional and appropriate.

    Thanks for the tips, too. If more people got into this, I feel like it could be a very fun thread.
  • Posts: 2,081
    Yes I mean when a new one is introduced for discussion, make it very visible so that just scrolling down the page it would be easy to spot.
  • Layer Cake is a film I love emotionally, it gets me on some level. It is how I would like a James Bond film to be, the right amount of humour and realism. It has more Bond moments than Craig's films imo, for instance when the Serbian hood phones Craig up, and Craig offers to invite him round... fantastic payoff. The look of the movie is lush, and the set pieces are memorable in particular the one in Greenwich.

    Fine use of music too, esp DD's Ordinary Day, and Gimme Shelter.

    Sienna Miller's brief scene is just right, makes an impression.

    Wish Matthew Vaughan had done CR, but guess that's a minority view here. Okay, not sure about his action credentials, but the whole feel of Layer Cake I just like, and wish a few Bonds could be like that now, sort of exotic without seeming naff. It's eye candy.
  • Posts: 1,817
    Great! Layer Cake is one of my favorite movies of all time.
    First, I have to say that I am a big fan of crime films. So just the topic brings this movie to my attention. But it also has so many good things, it is so well made, for example:
    - great dialogue: from Craig's introduction ("I'm businessman, whose commodity happens to be cocaine") to the "layer cake" speech.
    - brillant performances: by Craig, Gambon, Sienna Miller (who also appears extremely hot in this movie), Ben Whishaw, the guy of Jimmy Price and everyone else.
    - music is good, not only the songs that already being mentioned but the original tracks by Lisa Gerrard as well.
    - interesting story, even if, similar to Faust, it's "complex".
    It is great at the end when we see the "big picture" of the huge dutch facility and we learn that what the Duke stole, what we see is was commercialize it's one little portion of the whole operation

    The only negative side, for me it's:
    When XXXX talks to the audience, but I tolerate it because of the magnifence of the whole movie

    Best quotes:
    "Many times we're asked to do something behind the line of duty. It's called sacrifice son".
    "Thirteen million pounds?" (Eddie Temple says this like if he lost his voice)
    "Mr Troop could find anyone in the planet in 10 minutes".

    Definetly one of my top 10 movies.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    It is your thread, @Creasy47, so feel free to discuss what you wish. It isn't as fresh for me, but I find the ending up to debate. Does XXXX live, or does he die (it is a tad funny that Bond is shot by Q)? Considering that he survives in the novels by J. J. Connolly (he just wrote a sequel not long ago), it is a possibility that he survives the shot.

    Also, would everyone here like to see Dan come back and reprise his role for a sequel? If Vaughn is on board I would love to see another film based around XXXX and his exploits.
  • edited March 2013 Posts: 2,081
    ^^ I certainly would. The ending is great the way it is. In the extras Daniel and Vaughn get questions about the movie, including the ending - the possibility of another movie gets mentioned and it is of course made possible by XXXX maybe not dying after all. Either way it's a good ending - I'm happy they shot that version, too, and that it ended up in the film, instead of the one Sony had wanted.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Any you have to love "Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood" playing. It fits the story and moment so well, aside from being a great tune.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,503
    Like I said, Brady, I hadn't seen the film in years, and when you put together that cartoon joke about Q shooting Bond months ago, I was blown away.

    I say that XXXX lives. It's quite the possibility, and because of the new book that was written, we find out that he does. Author's word goes, I suppose. I for one would love to get another 'Layer Cake' with Craig returning. Perhaps it would garner an even bigger fan base now that Craig is a more well-known actor.
  • Posts: 1,817
    I've never read the novels, but infering from the film I'll say he dies because I think they wanted to say that a small mistake can pass the bill any time.
    And in that kind of business there's always the risk of be (A) arrested or (B) murder. I believe that was the whole point (as it is also presented in The Sopranos, "you never see it coming").
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited March 2013 Posts: 40,503
    @0013, good point, good point. So, do you not feel that the novels change the outcome of the film at all?
  • Posts: 1,817
    It could be, @Creasy47, I mean they are canon. But I hope it didn't. It has more sense if he finished there.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,503
    I need to revisit the film some time in the near future. Picked it up (and returned it after I was running low on cash) on blu-ray a while back, but never did watch it.

    So, some feel that he died and others don't. Any other opinions?
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,459
    I think there was a tentative script of him surviving and going to a Caribbean island an carrying on from there.

    It's an ending you can have suit you either way. I'd like to see him live, though. It is one of my fav films, whether a sequel is ever made or not (and I doubt it now that Craig has been so successful as Bond).
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I think there was a tentative script of him surviving and going to a Caribbean island an carrying on from there.

    It's an ending you can have suit you either way. I'd like to see him live, though. It is one of my fav films, whether a sequel is ever made or not (and I doubt it now that Craig has been so successful as Bond).

    I don't think Dan's fame feeds into it. Even after he became a household name with CR he did a passion project called Flashbacks of a Fool with an old friend, so he isn't opposed to the idea. If Dan wanted to do another turn as XXXX, I think he would.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,459
    I don't think he will also because it is too much like Bond - albeit huge differences, too. And I think it feels "settled" the way it is. Saying that, though, I don't think any other actor could carry on with the part either.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,503
    I just feel that with the place Craig is at now, alongside a new(er) novel being released that continues XXXX's story, why not? I'd love to see it, and it would go along with him surviving and following a new storyline.

    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, that he did, and I quite liked 'Flashbacks of a Fool.' Another smaller film of his that I loved was 'Enduring Love.'
  • I felt there was a crossover with Flashbacks, in terms of it being filmed around the time of CR. After that, I felt Craig wanted to go for broke and be a big A list star with stuff like Cowboys and Aliens, Golden Compass, Dragon Tattoo, slightly ropey 'ought to be hits but aren't quite' movies. When you have a big star as Bond, it seems any other big movie can seem contrived, like getting a singer to segue into a big acting career. You can't quite manufacture a hit.

    So, no, not sure an ambitious Craig would want to hark back to a Layer Cake sequel, after all not sure that film made a vast amount of money.
  • Posts: 2,081
    ^^ I have no idea if he'd be interested in a sequel (or if anyone is even planning one), but if he was then he wouldn't care about the money. I'm sure nobody expected Flashbacks to be a huge commercial success or something, but he did it because he wanted to, and it's a good movie. Not everything has to make "a vast amount of money" to be worthwhile.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Tuulia wrote:
    ^^ I have no idea if he'd be interested in a sequel (or if anyone is even planning one), but if he was then he wouldn't care about the money. I'm sure nobody expected Flashbacks to be a huge commercial success or something, but he did it because he wanted to, and it's a good movie. Not everything has to make "a vast amount of money" to be worthwhile.

    Precisely, and immaculately put. Some of the greatest films in celluloid history weren't big commercial hits (some not even critical), but as time went by people took notice.

    As it has been said, Dan does projects because they are new to him, and interest and challenge him, not because of the paycheck.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,503
    @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, and that's why I love Dan and his work.

    Any final words on 'Layer Cake'? If not, does anyone have a suggestion for the next movie?
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I left some suggestions at the top of the page if you want to consider them.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,503
    Let's go with Fincher's 'Zodiac':

    So, what do you think about the ending, and with that, the real case of the Zodiac Killer? Do you believe Arthur Leigh Allen was the killer off of Mageau's mugshot identification of him? Do you think the DNA tests really held up enough to confirm that Allen was not the Zodiac Killer?
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Ohhh, one of my favorites!

    I have been intrigued for as long as I can remember by the real life case and this masterpiece of a film from the first time I saw it, and must say that Allen really seems to be the killer in my eyes.

    The things that make me suspect him:

    *He lived in very close proximity to one of the first victims (that we know of), a female, and had been reported to be at a party that same woman was having and some thought he was "odd."

    *His favorite story was "The Most Dangerous Game", a book he was obsessed with since his youth, a book where a man named Count Zaroff hunts people on his island because it is hunting man, not animals that is the "most dangerous game" of all. Allen was said to have been intrigued by the idea of hunting people because they "have intelligence."

    *Leigh Allen had a Zodiac brand watch, with the same symbols on the face that the killer used to sign his letters.

    *There is testimony by one of Allen's friends, Don Cheney, that Allen used the premise of writing a novel to communicate this fantasy similar to what the Zodiac did. He claims Allen told him:

    He would like to kill couples at random.
    He would taunt the police with letters detailing his crimes.
    He would sign the letters with the cross-circle symbol from his watch.
    He would call himself "Zodiac."
    He would wear make-up to change his appearance.
    He would attach a flashlight to the barrel of his gun in order to shoot at night.
    AND
    He would fool women into stopping their cars in rural areas by claiming they had problems with their tires, then loosen their lug nuts and eventually take them captive.

    ^ He see basically all of these in the film itself, except for the statement regarding him wearing make-up to change his appearance.

    *While Allen was imprisoned for molestation charges, the Zodiac letters stopped. They began again not long after his release.

    *The day before police got a warrant for the search of Allen's residence, he had cleaned out most of what was in his home. There were still guns similar to the Zodiac's there, though.

    *Allen's birthday coincides with that of the Zodiac's, the date of which the killer mentions in a letter he sent to the home of Melvin Belli (I think the birthday was December 18th).

    *Mike Mageau, one of the first Zodiac victims (and one of the few survivors) claims he is "very certain" Allen is the man that shot him.

    *Robert Graysmith says that after Allen died, the mysterious phone calls made to his home (with just he breathing on the other line) stopped.

    There is a lot more, but I just wanted to outline why I feel it was Allen. The writing not matching up doesn't bother me, since it isn't a very conclusive test to do because it can change and some people are ambidextrous. As for the DNA, that still puzzles me. What are your thoughts, @Creasy47?
  • edited March 2013 Posts: 2,015
    IMO, one should not consider Zodiac as a film on the Zodiac killer himself, but rather as a film on the obsession of Robert Graysmith to "prove" that he found the Zodiac killer, (ie : Allen in the end, but the elder guy at the movie theater is also strongly hinted to "know something"). You then see all the reality through his obsession : he sees coincidences so "strong" one cannot help but conclude he's right etc. So, IMO, it's an "unreliable narrator" movie. You also see the impact on his life and mind (were the phone calls really happening ?)

    For instance, the most blatant invention is the fact that during the interview with the police, Allen is wearing a very rare kind of boots that the Zodiac wore too. No such things happened in real life according to Zodiac expert websites (and there's quite a few !). And that explains why such a critical clue is given to the viewers (with the help of a scene in which the police officer notice the boots but say nothing about them, and earlier explanations these boots are very rare), but then has no impact at all on the story. That's just the author wishing he had a smoking gun in his theory.
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