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The Film Debate Thread - #5: 'Zodiac'

Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
edited March 2013 in General Movies & TV Posts: 40,473
The rules are simple: I'll announce a film, and we will debate on any part of the film we see fit. - I'll be going for whatever films you all would like to talk about, and would love exceptions, so PM me for further additions. Of course, SPOILERS are going to follow, so be wary. This is all in good fun, please keep it on topic, and remember, films with ambiguous endings have no wrong or right answer, I think, so keep the knives sheathed and off one another's throats. I'll go ahead and start off with one that seems to be pretty popular on the boards:

1.) Inception

So, does the top keep spinning or does it roll off the table? What leads you to this assumption? Do you think Nolan changed things and gave us a happy ending in general, whether he is dreaming or not, or was it a dark, twisted film, as others feel all of his other films are? Debate away.
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Comments

  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,034
    I believe he's dreaming. All the things we had learned about the levels of dreaming throughout the film make Cobb waking up to a happy ending unlikely. Him simply coming out of limbo by putting a bullet through his brain just doesn't feel right to me. I haven't watched it in a couple of months though, may have to revisit.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,473
    But, as he has visions of his children throughout the film, he says that no matter what he does, he can't see their faces, yet at the end, he can. Also, someone pointed out something about his wedding ring: it's either on in his dreams and off in the real world, or vice versa, so that's something to consider, as well.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,034
    Was it on or off in the last scene?
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,473
    Honestly, it's been a while, and I don't recall. I really need to see and dissect it again, as soon as possible.
  • thelordflasheartthelordflasheart
    Posts: 1,370
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote:
    Was it on or off in the last scene?

    IIRC they purposely never showed his hand so you can't tell...much like how the top wobbles but they don't show it falling over (which some people have told me that they remember seeing!). They mostly* kept that scene ambiguous.

    I bought Inception a while back and was surprised that it wasn't as fun during its second viewing. Everything is so well laid out that there was nothing new to discover the second time around. Still a very enjoyable puzzle of a film though.

    * I read an interview with a key person from the film's production and he confirmed that despite the obvious clues being absent there is indeed a different one that confirms whether or not Cobb is dreaming in that final scene.

  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,473
    @thelordflasheart, so you're saying that, in the final scene, there's another clue that gives away if it is a dream or not? Wow, that's very interesting. The only other thing I can think of is the outfits of the kids, for some reason. I'd like to take a look at everything in his house one time, pre-finale, and then look at it again in the finale and see if anything is different.
  • thelordflasheartthelordflasheart
    Posts: 1,370
    Creasy47 wrote:
    @thelordflasheart, so you're saying that, in the final scene, there's another clue that gives away if it is a dream or not? Wow, that's very interesting. The only other thing I can think of is the outfits of the kids, for some reason. I'd like to take a look at everything in his house one time, pre-finale, and then look at it again in the finale and see if anything is different.

    I was going to mention it but then thought maybe I shouldn't in case anyone wanted to try to find it. I assumed that it would be common knowledge - surely the "solution" must have made its way around the net as soon as that interview was published. It was something that I never noticed myself until it was brought to my attention.

  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,473
    Yeah, I thought they looked different, but, like an idiot, waved it off, thinking nothing that small could make such a difference.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,034
    The kids were definitely much clearer in the final shots. But again, I think Nolan could quite easily be testing us with them too. Dreams after all, can occur many times, and with each repetition details can become clearer to us, even if they're just from fragments of our minds. As such, the evidence from Inception's final scene is so contradictory, it's merely a personal preference as to what you believe, isn't it?
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Oh, I can't have this argument again so soon... #-o
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,473
    Haha, @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, join in. The last discussion on this wasn't too bad; I just got the idea for it (saw the argument pop up in another thread), and I figured a discussion like this with the films changing constantly would be good.

    That's how it is: some people say it's this and he did it because of this, and some people will disagree. The film is ambiguous for a reason: Nolan wants us to bicker, debate, and fight over it. If he wanted us to know whether he is in the dream world or reality, he would have shown us.
  • RogueAgentRogueAgent
    Posts: 12,506
    Not seen it? Only seen the trailers and promo shows. Is it worth a watch?
  • thelordflasheartthelordflasheart
    Posts: 1,370
    Creasy47 wrote:

    That's how it is: some people say it's this and he did it because of this, and some people will disagree. The film is ambiguous for a reason: Nolan wants us to bicker, debate, and fight over it. If he wanted us to know whether he is in the dream world or reality, he would have shown us.

    Yes, and then there was that interview that I read:
    I believe that it was the costume designer who said that the children were wearing different clothes at the end to signify that it wasn't Cobb's recurring dream but was in fact reality.

    So even though Nolan wanted it ambiguous for the audience according to this interview he always knew the "true" meaning of the final scene and shared it with the production staff.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,473
    That's pretty cool, I love how the biggest or smallest of people involved in a large production can give away answers like that, based off of their profession.

    Now, I don't remember exactly where it's at in the film, but the only part that ever made me question the ending's 'reality' validity was when Dom and his team go underground, and they see all of the older people hooked up to machines for their dreams, so he tries it out. When he wakes up, he goes to the bathroom to spin his top, sees Mal, and before it stops spinning, it falls on the ground on accident. When he goes to respin it, he gets interrupted, so he doesn't give the chance to.

    I just think Nolan had this scene exactly for that: make people definitely question from there on out whether he makes it out in the end or not.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    edited June 2012 Posts: 12,837
    RogueAgent wrote:
    Is it worth a watch?

    YES!!!


    Anyway, I like to think that it was real. I'm don't know if it was or wasn't but I like to think that the film had a happy ending.
    Creasy47 wrote:
    I just think Nolan had this scene exactly for that: make people definitely question from there on out whether he makes it out in the end or not.

    Yep. Seems like the sort of thing he would do.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,473
    Yeah, I say it's real, as do a lot of people on here. There's just too much that goes towards it - along with me wanting him to be in reality - that I want it to be real.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,690
    For me the ending was 'real'.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,473
    Good, it appears we all agree. Perhaps this wasn't the best discussion, then, haha. I'll select a new one in a few days, try to get more responses.
  • SaintMarkSaintMark
    Posts: 7,653
    I can recall the ending or most of the story simple because all the CGI and smartarse story made me fall asleep. And I never felt the need the re-watch the movie for that reason. I never connected with this movie similar to the SW prequels 2 & 3 which is too much thunder.
  • RogueAgentRogueAgent
    Posts: 12,506
    thelivingroyale wrote:
    RogueAgent wrote:
    Is it worth a watch?

    YES!!!


    Anyway, I like to think that it was real. I'm don't know if it was or wasn't but I like to think that the film had a happy ending.
    Creasy47 wrote:
    I just think Nolan had this scene exactly for that: make people definitely question from there on out whether he makes it out in the end or not.

    Yep. Seems like the sort of thing he would do.

    Lol! Ok i will give it a go ASAP.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited June 2012 Posts: 40,473
    SaintMark wrote:
    I can recall the ending or most of the story simple because all the CGI and smartarse story made me fall asleep. And I never felt the need the re-watch the movie for that reason. I never connected with this movie similar to the SW prequels 2 & 3 which is too much thunder.

    Where was the CGI, aside from the city bending in on itself?
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,690
    @Creast47 you could make a discussion on the final twist in Usual Suspects or The Sixth Sense, to see if anyone saw it coming (or saw little clues indicating where the movie would go )
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,473
    @DC007, thank you for those, I'll have to write them down. I won't lie...I haven't seen 'Usual Suspects,' but since it's one of those 'huge twist' films, I already know the ending. I have seen 'The Sixth Sense,' though, so I might go with that shortly. I had an idea for one, but I just can't remember it now.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Inception discussions always give me headaches, but the debates and the interpretive ending is why I love it so much.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,473
    Indeed. This one just doesn't really seem like much of a debate instead of an agreement.

    But, I'm curious as to why @SaintMark thought the film was filled with CGI, when I can recall only one instance. Granted, it's been a while, but what else? It was the giant water scene in the beginning that filled Cobb's dreams, because they used giant water cannons for that. It wasn't the spinning hallway scene, because they created a hallway that spun with the camera, and it wasn't the debris explosion scene with Cobb and Ariadne, because they threw and detonated items and used big fans to blow all the debris around them and the coffee table.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,459
    Ahhh, I love this movie. I have got to buy it soon. So much about it is enjoyable for me: in broad strokes -, the story, the performances, the visuals, the pacing, etc. I always thought the ending was real - the talisman/totem/top (whatever it was called) started to wobble and therefore would fall; and the children for sure turned full to him and looked different from before. Ambiguous but not so much that I wanted to scream in frustration.

    Like Nolan was leadng us down a foggy lane, just showing us enough for us to want to debate it ... keep talking about it ... relive it. A memorable film, which is what any filmmaker wants. I love the action sequences in this and the score really fits the action, just driving you along with it. Love the snow scenes, etc. ... so many etcs. One of my favorite films of the past 10 years for sure.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,459
    Creasy47 wrote:
    Indeed. This one just doesn't really seem like much of a debate instead of an agreement.

    But, I'm curious as to why @SaintMark thought the film was filled with CGI, when I can recall only one instance. Granted, it's been a while, but what else? It was the giant water scene in the beginning that filled Cobb's dreams, because they used giant water cannons for that. It wasn't the spinning hallway scene, because they created a hallway that spun with the camera, and it wasn't the debris explosion scene with Cobb and Ariadne, because they threw and detonated items and used big fans to blow all the debris around them and the coffee table.

    Whatever CGI was there it never bothered me or intruded upon my enjoyment of the film. I think the long view of the Japanese castle was CGI, Paris upending and folding onto itself, and some other effects - the world Cobb built with Mal from scratch where they spent 50 years together. I am no expert so I am just guessing. Doesn't matter to me as the overall effect was stunning and fit the story, in my opinion.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    4EverBonded wrote:
    Creasy47 wrote:
    Indeed. This one just doesn't really seem like much of a debate instead of an agreement.

    But, I'm curious as to why @SaintMark thought the film was filled with CGI, when I can recall only one instance. Granted, it's been a while, but what else? It was the giant water scene in the beginning that filled Cobb's dreams, because they used giant water cannons for that. It wasn't the spinning hallway scene, because they created a hallway that spun with the camera, and it wasn't the debris explosion scene with Cobb and Ariadne, because they threw and detonated items and used big fans to blow all the debris around them and the coffee table.

    Whatever CGI was there it never bothered me or intruded upon my enjoyment of the film. I think the long view of the Japanese castle was CGI, Paris upending and folding onto itself, and some other effects - the world Cobb built with Mal from scratch where they spent 50 years together. I am no expert so I am just guessing. Doesn't matter to me as the overall effect was stunning and fit the story, in my opinion.

    No CGI there, the others, I am unsure.
  • WVPoefWVPoef
    Posts: 147
    Love all Nolan's work, great director.

    For me the ending was in the reality and not a dream. Great ending!
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,570
    Dropped in to Movies & TV
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