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For me, the lack of "wackiness" in TB is what makes it appeal to me all the more. GF is in some instances just a bit too "wacky" for my liking. It's entertaining for sure, and in a Moore Bond movie I might have preferred it, but here it's just a bit too much.
In a sense, I can agree it's a bit less colourful, but at the same time I feel the exotic locations and atmosphere more than makes up for it. For someone who doesn't get the chance to travel much, that travelogue aspect of the film is one of the things that appeals to me, just like most of the Bond films that tops my ranking.
The Bahamas > Kentucky Stud Farm.
Yes, TB is as much Bond formula as GF can be. When people say it was successful because it was a sequel to GF, they're missing the point. It's the first epic Bond film and I don't think something like OHMSS could have been that.
Yeah that's my problem with the end too, it's weird really. Largo and Spectre have basically lost as soon as Bond knows where they are, there's not much tension. The climax to YOLT is much better.
Yeah I don't disagree, watching it in 4K and HDR, it is the genuine sunshine leaking out of the screen which makes it a great watch. If it were set anywhere else I think it would have bigger problems. The bits in France and the UK actually look quite dreary! :D
It's strange they didn't even seem to consider it. Seems like an easy fix.
Fair enough, especially if it led onto stronger Bond films down the line. I can acknowledge the underwater sequences, dull as I think they can be, are important and made way for better underwater scenes later in the franchise.
Still though, I struggle with the film a bit. It's so epic and stylish and yet simultaneously not as engaging as it could be on a plot level (for me anyway). It's like we got more scale compared to GF/the other films but with a lot of the fun sucked out (it does seem a rather tired film in places, if that even makes sense. It's got its high points though).
Yeah there is something fundamentally not very interesting about the plot; there's nothing very cool or inventive going on. Goldfinger had a big laser and nerve gas and planes, you know? And if I were making I'd have promoted Luciana Paluzzi to lead villain as she's so good in it: have her kill off bland old Largo! :D
To be fair that may well be down to the issues with footage that Hunt often cited with Young. Or perhaps that's just his editor's excuse, haha.
Needless to say, when I watched it on 4K I skipped the Vulcan landing :)
I must say, watching the scene on YouTube I think they could have tightened it and gone sooner to Largo looking up at Bond. I can understand maybe reinforcing what's going on in the battle scene a bit in order to give the idea Bond's swooping in, but the whole battle is a little plodding all round (it's underwater which doesn't help, and the cuts do seem a bit flabby at points. Even Barry's score is slower. I can see the logic I suppose - underwater everything is genuinely slowed... but it doesn't quite work fully).
However, at the end of the day I think they're both peak Bond. TB is my preferred one here, but GF isn't far behind either.
I don't. I'll admit to it being my favorite of the series for various reasons. I don't mind the underwater action and it doesn't drag for me, but by the same token, I find much of Bond's time Goldfinger's stud farm to be how others feel about the underwater battle.
Something meant to be suspenseful like the car crushing just turns into questions like why go to the trouble and why wouldn't Oddjob take out the gold to save his boss the trouble of separating it from what could be the remains of Solo all over it? Then you have Leiter, who's so bushed from observing with binoculars and more eager to eat KFC than do his job.
At the same time, I disagree with those who claim Bond has no impact and is just a prisoner during that stretch. His encounter barn encounter with Pussy turns the whole thing around.
Nope! It’d be my favorite Connery Bond if not for the greatness of FRWL. The underwater scenes are cool. Everything about the movie is cool!
I give TB a pass on the slow underwater sequences because I think this filming was new, and fresh, at the time.
But, and I think I might be remembering something @mtm said a while ago, TB feels staid, a throwback to pre-GF days or even pre-DN, since its development started long before the Bond phenomenon.
Throw all the McClory tension into the mix, and we don't get a prime Broccoli-Saltzman production like DN, FRWL, GF, and arguably YOLT.
By OHMSS, the Broccoli-Saltzman partnership had started to wear down, and they were alternating films (OHMSS and LALD were Saltzman, DAF and TMWTGG were Broccoli).
Back to TB, certainly Terence Young hanging on for one film too many didn't help. The series had basically grown past him after GF.
GF is okay, perhaps too iconic that's why it tends to be counted as one of the greats, but if looking deeply into the film, it has so many flaws: Bond doing nothing, not saying he's captured all the time, but Bond literally did nothing other than to switch Pussy Galore's sides in a questionable way, Felix Leiter even did more of the job, Goldfinger had great lines but he's not threatening, maybe in the first half, but in his later scenes, the menace seemed to die out, he's inconsistent (Oddjob was way more threatening and kept that consistent, Largo was very much an improvement despite of Adolfo Celi's 'lacking in some spice' performance, because the character at least was menacing), which I'd argue Klaus Maria Brandauer later did better (because his performance also complimented the character).
TB, despite being my favorite novel (still to this day) is my mid ranked film, yes, I do agree that the underwater scenes could've been cut, but also could've added some action too, it's lacking in action, something that NSNA later did better (adding that chase scene between Bond and Fatima is a delight), and the lighting was also a problem: there are too many portions of the film in night scenes where it's too dark that I couldn't see anything or what's happening, and the soundtrack seemed to crash in with the actual sound playing in the film (this was more evident in the Junkanoo festival where the background soundtrack was playing while the actual music of the festival was playing), the problems of TB, for me, is more on the technical side, in terms of story, NSNA did this better, especially regarding Bond's rationale to investigate Domino or getting Domino's brother got hooked on drugs instead of replacing him with a clone, and more action scenes outside of the underwater scenes.
I hope I get the chance to see TB in 4K too one day! [-O<
Very much agree with Bond in captivity in GF, that's where the film falls apart somewhat for me. Everything up to that point (and the scenes at Fort Knox later on) is much more fun.
One of my favourite Barry scores too.
Here's a controversial opinion - I think Majesty's is still the most poignant ending of the entire series. Following roughly 2 hours and 15 minutes of escapist action and a Bond who was perhaps a bit more jovial than some of the others - that ending is a shocking and brutal reminder of the consequences of violence. Bond doesn't get to say or express goodbye to her the way he does to Vesper or Madeline. She's just gone; she's lifeless and its shattering especially after becoming invested in the relationship between the two. And that final shot of the bullet hole in the shattered window is brilliant because it represents how Bond's hopes and dreams for a normal life free of Her Majesty's Secret Service have been shattered.
I wish Casino Royale went ahead with a bit more of a somber ending like this as opposed to the "Bond, James Bond" moment. It's awesome don't get me wrong but I think it turns Vesper's death into some sort of slam dunk moment to leave the film on and robs her death of the dramatic impact that was present in Fleming's novel.
100% agreed. OHMSS's ending is more "artistic" (if you'll forgive me the word) in the sense that it doesn't go for a big moment, just a kick in the stomach, and I think it works much better that way.
Very well said my friend ☺️ I couldn't have said it better myself, you've explained it very well, nothing could beat OHMSS in that tragic, poignant ending, and I think this was also rooted to the fact that their relationship are developed and complex, we've seen them together, overcome challenges and all (unlike in the book where the relationship was half baked, Tracy rarely appeared in the book either, so her death left me unsatisfied), and to see it being stolen away from Bond, it's devastating, she's happy, only in seconds or minutes she's suddenly dead, very quick, and from that, my love for Diana Rigg's Tracy went deeper, she affected me as a viewer.
I also agreed with CR, it undermined Vesper's death, it was supposed to be a heartbreaking, tragic moment, not just to the "Bond, James Bond" line but since from the sinking house in Venice, it undermined the emotion that should be felt in Vesper's death, the quiet yet somber atmosphere, but instead, what we've got in the film was this adrenaline heightening action scenes that completely altered our emotions from supposed sadness to excitement, and when Vesper died, no emotions was felt.
I think what makes a large difference, for me anyway, is that Rigg is just so brilliant and and characterful and it's easy for the audience to fall in love with her so her loss is very easily felt. Whereas Green isn't as good and I don't really mourn her: I feel more for Bond himself as Craig is so good.
They learned their lesson. That's why Casino Royale was so successful. They also used this trick in SF and NTTD.
This is correct.
I love the toast at the end of NTTD. Perfectly gauged.
The novel ending is really powerful, but I don't think it would have worked to relaunch the franchise. Or in any Bond film for that matter. Poignant, yes, more realistic and believable as a suicide, yes, but too quiet and too much of a downer.
And that's making me wonder what makes her the best Bond Girl? Why many people ranked her so high? I do think she had an impact on Craig's Bond but what makes the people think she's the best? I do agree with @mtm, he's really on point, Craig's Bond gets the sympathy more than Vesper herself, I don't see her that much great, sure, maybe she and Craig have chemistry, but that's not enough to put Vesper too much on the Pedestal, many people are telling how Vesper's death is sad, what's sad in that? She died in the middle of an action sequence, full of adrenaline and excitement, not somber or downright depressing compared to say Tracy's death or that of M in SF.
I think like @mtm have said, it's only Craig's performance that brought Vesper to the top, as the audience felt more for Bond himself, but if taking Vesper alone, she's not particularly great, I could even rank Natalya Simonova above her (Tracy for me remains the best Bond Girl, bar none).
But if we're evaluating Vesper as a character, that scene in the book elevated their relationship and gave meat to their romance, we felt sad not just for Bond, but for their relationship, for Vesper herself, it's so somber that we felt sympathy for all the aspects of their romance, Vesper left a heartfelt message for Bond, signifying her love for him was genuine and that she was struggling, we feel sorry for Vesper, there's showing of complexity in her character in that scene.
Vesper in the film just killed herself, drowned herself without saying a word, making her a downright villainess, instead of a complicated woman who was torn between her love for Bond and the danger she was facing.
The novel leans into melodrama, which I think is great but isn't necessarily right for a film. It's quite a stark tonal shift in many ways, with Bond's new life crumbling around him with Vesper's hysteria/personal deterioration. If they'd really leaned into that with the film it would have felt like audiences had walked into a James Bond movie and ended up watching a Romantic Drama. It would have been very, very weird.
It's that old adage Bond fans sometimes say. Just because it's Fleming doesn't necessarily mean it should be faithfully adapted.
I don't know if she's necessarily the best Bond girl. That's perhaps subjective. The character's pretty strong in many ways though (or is at least quite important to that film), and as you said Green has good chemistry with Craig... I can only say if, supposedly, a relatively large portion of viewers felt invested in the character and would say she's one of the best Bond girls, then the film (and indeed Green) must have done something right.
I don't mind that she dies after an action sequence. That's not a problem in itself, and you have to account for the pacing of the scene, how impactful her death is in itself, how they convey it etc. I do think that's what you're missing in your assesment. I think they do a fantastic job of shifting the mood once Bond defeats the goons and tries to get her out of the elevator. I actually think it's much more powerful for a film seeing her take her own life too and Bond failing to save her (it's a visual medium after all, and it's a big moment. Half arsing it by having her die off-screen or purposely creating this sort of underwhelming melodramatic moment is a big no no).
As I said, I think if viewers don't know how Vesper's demise plays out in the book, I suspect the film's interpretation isn't something people would automatically claim to be underwhelming or disappointing (it's subjective, but I suspect a majority would say it's a sufficiently dramatic, pathos filled scene). It's because we have this source material to compare it to so we tend to prioritise our feelings towards that. I don't think that's very useful, but it's somewhat natural if one's a fan of the book. But no, I don't think there's any circumstance where adapting that death faithfully or even underplaying her death would have worked unfortunately. And ultimately the priority of a film is conveying the best story for the medium possible. Not adapting the source material to the letter. Personally I have yet to see any alternative suggestion that I felt would have improved it.