Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,333
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I never got the appeal.
    It's the Bond theme. :-bd

  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,993
    bondjames wrote: »
    (These two are so far below the others I had to drop down into another post)

    3. QOS - Good dogfight with Bond using his brain in a crapper plane.
    4. SP - Bond not using his brain and nearly killing everyone before succeeding by pure chance.
    Agreed, but I'll also add that the QoS sequence is let down by pretty awful photography. Sometimes it's difficult for me to keep up with the little plane and where it's at. Additionally there is some naff CGI used for the plane towards the end when it's on a near vertical trajectory. It sort of reminds me of the sequence in DAD over the demilitarized zone when the plane is about to disintegrate.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    @echo Is the plane-car chase and the PTS in SP any different in that regard than the tank chase in GE? He's pursuing a vehicle with a much bigger and overpowering one and did most definitely put civilians in danger.
    True. They are very similar types of sequences, right down to the damsel in distress. I suppose the difference is that Bond didn't directly put Natalya in danger by slamming the tank into her car, as he did with the plane in SP. I'm not a fan of either sequence really, although I realize the GE one is looked upon positively by most.

    This is a good point. There's something about a car/tank chase (how fast can a tank go?) that is more controllable than a plane/car chase. The streets seem fairly deserted. And in the PTS of SP, where are the bodies from the helicopter landing? Campbell, to his credit, and even though it's ridiculous, shows the police car driver surviving the tank. That's a Bond film.

    I wish I could find the quote. I'm pretty sure it's Cubby or MGW.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,195
    Bond crashing half of St. Petersburg is pointless of course. At the same time it is quite funny and does stand out. The plane chase in SP is completely forgettable. So I agree with @TheWizardOfIce. However I would like to add the point that the location als matters. GE makes at least use of the city. Does anybody care about a snowy region somewhere in Austria??
  • Posts: 14,854
    GBF wrote: »
    Bond crashing half of St. Petersburg is pointless of course. At the same time it is quite funny and does stand out. The plane chase in SP is completely forgettable. So I agree with @TheWizardOfIce. However I would like to add the point that the location als matters. GE makes at least use of the city. Does anybody care about a snowy region somewhere in Austria??

    I love any snowy region especially in Austria. I'm all for more Austria in Bond movies. Whatever the problem was with the chase in SP it certainly was not its setting.
  • Posts: 19,339
    The LTK petrol truck situation blows all the above mentioned out of the water...awesome stuff.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2018 Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    Bond crashing half of St. Petersburg is pointless of course. At the same time it is quite funny and does stand out. The plane chase in SP is completely forgettable. So I agree with @TheWizardOfIce. However I would like to add the point that the location als matters. GE makes at least use of the city. Does anybody care about a snowy region somewhere in Austria??

    I love any snowy region especially in Austria. I'm all for more Austria in Bond movies. Whatever the problem was with the chase in SP it certainly was not its setting.
    I was so looking forward to that setting after reading about it prior to the film's release. What I couldn't understand is why they made it look so drab. There was more life in the still photos of Craig, Bautista and Seydoux that preceded the film's release than there was in the actual final product. Once again a lens filter was applied, making the entire locale washed out and monotone. Compare that to the daytime scenes in OHMSS for instance.
  • Posts: 14,854
    I don't I really liked the look of SP. Regarding Austria it could have been the location of the whole movie (minus a few scenes here and there) and I would have been very happy.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I don't I really liked the look of SP. Regarding Austria it could have been the location of the whole movie (minus a few scenes here and there) and I would have been very happy.
    Austria would be a fantastic place for a future Bond film. I don't think it was done justice in TLD.
  • edited March 2018 Posts: 1,162
    Ludovico wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    Bond crashing half of St. Petersburg is pointless of course. At the same time it is quite funny and does stand out. The plane chase in SP is completely forgettable. So I agree with @TheWizardOfIce. However I would like to add the point that the location als matters. GE makes at least use of the city. Does anybody care about a snowy region somewhere in Austria??

    I love any snowy region especially in Austria. I'm all for more Austria in Bond movies. Whatever the problem was with the chase in SP it certainly was not its setting.

    The problem was that you didn't see anything of it. Just like before and in the rest of the movie. And come to think about it, like in SF before. Seems to be another Mendes trademark. Along with lack of originality, modesty and humor that is.
  • Posts: 14,854
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I don't I really liked the look of SP. Regarding Austria it could have been the location of the whole movie (minus a few scenes here and there) and I would have been very happy.
    Austria would be a fantastic place for a future Bond film. I don't think it was done justice in TLD.

    In any Bond film in fact. In how many high profile movies has Austria been featured extensively? Last one I can think of was... The Sound of Music. And that was a while ago. Amadeus was set in Vienna but was shot in Prague.

    I'd love a Bond movie featuring an Austrian castle as the villain's lair.
  • Posts: 1,885
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    Bond crashing half of St. Petersburg is pointless of course. At the same time it is quite funny and does stand out. The plane chase in SP is completely forgettable. So I agree with @TheWizardOfIce. However I would like to add the point that the location als matters. GE makes at least use of the city. Does anybody care about a snowy region somewhere in Austria??

    I love any snowy region especially in Austria. I'm all for more Austria in Bond movies. Whatever the problem was with the chase in SP it certainly was not its setting.
    I was so looking forward to that setting after reading about it prior to the film's release. What I couldn't understand is why they made it look so drab. There was more life in the still photos of Craig, Bautista and Seydoux that preceded the film's release than there was in the actual final product. Once again a lens filter was applied, making the entire locale washed out and monotone. Compare that to the daytime scenes in OHMSS for instance.

    That brings to mind one of my disappointments in SP was the trailer with the OHMSS theme hints and Craig finally in a snowy environment against Blofeld that had me getting OHMSS vibes, especially that still with Craig and the Walther.

    And we got the plane crashing thing. Besides being uninventive, it was just uninspired. Then it's back to the desert. All that planning and build-up for that?
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    BT3366 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    Bond crashing half of St. Petersburg is pointless of course. At the same time it is quite funny and does stand out. The plane chase in SP is completely forgettable. So I agree with @TheWizardOfIce. However I would like to add the point that the location als matters. GE makes at least use of the city. Does anybody care about a snowy region somewhere in Austria??

    I love any snowy region especially in Austria. I'm all for more Austria in Bond movies. Whatever the problem was with the chase in SP it certainly was not its setting.
    I was so looking forward to that setting after reading about it prior to the film's release. What I couldn't understand is why they made it look so drab. There was more life in the still photos of Craig, Bautista and Seydoux that preceded the film's release than there was in the actual final product. Once again a lens filter was applied, making the entire locale washed out and monotone. Compare that to the daytime scenes in OHMSS for instance.

    That brings to mind one of my disappointments in SP was the trailer with the OHMSS theme hints and Craig finally in a snowy environment against Blofeld that had me getting OHMSS vibes, especially that still with Craig and the Walther.

    And we got the plane crashing thing. Besides being uninventive, it was just uninspired. Then it's back to the desert. All that planning and build-up for that?

    The use of the OHMSS music and the way they cut the trailer was extremely dishonest, as if we were going to get something to compare.

    The film that was sold in the trailer looked so much better than what we ended up with.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2018 Posts: 23,883
    BT3366 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    Bond crashing half of St. Petersburg is pointless of course. At the same time it is quite funny and does stand out. The plane chase in SP is completely forgettable. So I agree with @TheWizardOfIce. However I would like to add the point that the location als matters. GE makes at least use of the city. Does anybody care about a snowy region somewhere in Austria??

    I love any snowy region especially in Austria. I'm all for more Austria in Bond movies. Whatever the problem was with the chase in SP it certainly was not its setting.
    I was so looking forward to that setting after reading about it prior to the film's release. What I couldn't understand is why they made it look so drab. There was more life in the still photos of Craig, Bautista and Seydoux that preceded the film's release than there was in the actual final product. Once again a lens filter was applied, making the entire locale washed out and monotone. Compare that to the daytime scenes in OHMSS for instance.

    That brings to mind one of my disappointments in SP was the trailer with the OHMSS theme hints and Craig finally in a snowy environment against Blofeld that had me getting OHMSS vibes, especially that still with Craig and the Walther.

    And we got the plane crashing thing. Besides being uninventive, it was just uninspired. Then it's back to the desert. All that planning and build-up for that?

    The use of the OHMSS music and the way they cut the trailer was extremely dishonest, as if we were going to get something to compare.

    The film that was sold in the trailer looked so much better than what we ended up with.
    It's true. I'm not sure why they did that. It raised expectations unnecessarily. Same goes for the famous bullet through glass at the end. What a let down eventually.
  • Posts: 19,339
    bondjames wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    Bond crashing half of St. Petersburg is pointless of course. At the same time it is quite funny and does stand out. The plane chase in SP is completely forgettable. So I agree with @TheWizardOfIce. However I would like to add the point that the location als matters. GE makes at least use of the city. Does anybody care about a snowy region somewhere in Austria??

    I love any snowy region especially in Austria. I'm all for more Austria in Bond movies. Whatever the problem was with the chase in SP it certainly was not its setting.
    I was so looking forward to that setting after reading about it prior to the film's release. What I couldn't understand is why they made it look so drab. There was more life in the still photos of Craig, Bautista and Seydoux that preceded the film's release than there was in the actual final product. Once again a lens filter was applied, making the entire locale washed out and monotone. Compare that to the daytime scenes in OHMSS for instance.

    That brings to mind one of my disappointments in SP was the trailer with the OHMSS theme hints and Craig finally in a snowy environment against Blofeld that had me getting OHMSS vibes, especially that still with Craig and the Walther.

    And we got the plane crashing thing. Besides being uninventive, it was just uninspired. Then it's back to the desert. All that planning and build-up for that?

    The use of the OHMSS music and the way they cut the trailer was extremely dishonest, as if we were going to get something to compare.

    The film that was sold in the trailer looked so much better than what we ended up with.
    It's true. I'm not sure why they did that. It raised expectations unnecessarily. Same goes for the famous bullet through glass at the end. What a let down eventually.

    I watched that trailer over and over,and yes,basically it was a disgusting thing to do.
    Show a film that didnt exist just to dupe the public into thinking it was something it wasnt.

    This again shows the arrogance and over-confidence this lot has at the moment.
  • SeanCraigSeanCraig Germany
    Posts: 732
    Loved the „kite“ trailer. I was SO excited by the return of Mr. White and the trailer sold the movie brilliantly ... if only the film could hold up to it. There were a lot of good things in this movie but somehow it derailed
  • Posts: 684
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Other controversial opinion: Spottiswoode was betrayed by poor material otherwise he might have been praised as much as Campbell.
    I'm on board with this. GE and TND are always next to each other in my rankings; GE edging out TND, but not by much. As a repackaging of classic Bond in the form of a 90s action films, GE's script has the advantage. But not majorly. I don't know if I could comparatively call TND's material poor. They're similar films to me.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Strog wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Other controversial opinion: Spottiswoode was betrayed by poor material otherwise he might have been praised as much as Campbell.
    I'm on board with this. GE and TND are always next to each other in my rankings; GE edging out TND, but not by much. As a repackaging of classic Bond in the form of a 90s action films, GE's script has the advantage. But not majorly. I don't know if I could comparatively call TND's material poor. They're similar films to me.

    TND soundtrack and score ,brings it close to GE alone.
  • Posts: 684
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Strog wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Other controversial opinion: Spottiswoode was betrayed by poor material otherwise he might have been praised as much as Campbell.
    I'm on board with this. GE and TND are always next to each other in my rankings; GE edging out TND, but not by much. As a repackaging of classic Bond in the form of a 90s action films, GE's script has the advantage. But not majorly. I don't know if I could comparatively call TND's material poor. They're similar films to me.

    TND soundtrack and score ,brings it close to GE alone.
    That's true for me, as well. It's been some time since I listened to the Arnold soundtracks from the Brosnan era, but I remember TND being comfortably ahead of the other two.

    Oddly, though, one of the things GE has going for it is that it's Serra's only one—that alone is enough to make it distinct, giving to it by default the thing which Barry had by extreme talent, i.e. despite being the same guy he managed to give to each film a distinct sound. Neither of Arnold nor Newman have been able to do that.

    So two decades later looking back at TND, part of what might have been its uniqueness sound-wise is lost in all the other Arnold scores. Whereas GE might be more atmospheric and stand out as particularly different because Serra never did another one.
  • Posts: 14,854
    Strog wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Other controversial opinion: Spottiswoode was betrayed by poor material otherwise he might have been praised as much as Campbell.
    I'm on board with this. GE and TND are always next to each other in my rankings; GE edging out TND, but not by much. As a repackaging of classic Bond in the form of a 90s action films, GE's script has the advantage. But not majorly. I don't know if I could comparatively call TND's material poor. They're similar films to me.

    It's a very generic plot, often by the number, with a few dead ends. Paris Carver has a past with Bond so they can get in bed faster and her death is quickly meaningless. But I think Spottiswoode made some really thrilling action scenes. Large scale and low key.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Strog wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Other controversial opinion: Spottiswoode was betrayed by poor material otherwise he might have been praised as much as Campbell.
    I'm on board with this. GE and TND are always next to each other in my rankings; GE edging out TND, but not by much. As a repackaging of classic Bond in the form of a 90s action films, GE's script has the advantage. But not majorly. I don't know if I could comparatively call TND's material poor. They're similar films to me.

    It's a very generic plot, often by the number, with a few dead ends. Paris Carver has a past with Bond so they can get in bed faster and her death is quickly meaningless. But I think Spottiswoode made some really thrilling action scenes. Large scale and low key.

    Basically its a good old style Bond film,probably the last one as none have matched its formula since.
    Great viewing for Easter or Xmas when people hear there is a Bond film on.

    I could easily watch a new one now,if Spottiswoode is given better material,he certainly understood what makes a Roger Moore'esque Bond film,which is why i like to watch it..especially with that wonderful score and Surrender playing throughout.
  • Posts: 14,854
    I actually find TND a bit too much of a techno thriller to be truly old style. And Paris is both miscast and disappointing for the reason stated above. And Way Lin truly was a bit too believable as a "Bond's equal" Bond girl. There's too many things that irk me with TND. But Spottiswoode's direction is very good.
  • edited March 2018 Posts: 684
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Strog wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Other controversial opinion: Spottiswoode was betrayed by poor material otherwise he might have been praised as much as Campbell.
    I'm on board with this. GE and TND are always next to each other in my rankings; GE edging out TND, but not by much. As a repackaging of classic Bond in the form of a 90s action films, GE's script has the advantage. But not majorly. I don't know if I could comparatively call TND's material poor. They're similar films to me.

    It's a very generic plot, often by the number, with a few dead ends. Paris Carver has a past with Bond so they can get in bed faster and her death is quickly meaningless. But I think Spottiswoode made some really thrilling action scenes. Large scale and low key.
    I don't mind the generic in TND so much. Same as I don't mind it in GE. For me what elevates GE's script and reliably lands it above TND in my rankings is the focus on Natalya. I love seeing her side of the story unfold and weave through the narrative with Bond's end until they join up.
  • Posts: 14,854
    I actually think GE has its own character, something TND lacks. It's also my issue with LTK.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Strog wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Strog wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Other controversial opinion: Spottiswoode was betrayed by poor material otherwise he might have been praised as much as Campbell.
    I'm on board with this. GE and TND are always next to each other in my rankings; GE edging out TND, but not by much. As a repackaging of classic Bond in the form of a 90s action films, GE's script has the advantage. But not majorly. I don't know if I could comparatively call TND's material poor. They're similar films to me.

    TND soundtrack and score ,brings it close to GE alone.
    That's true for me, as well. It's been some time since I listened to the Arnold soundtracks from the Brosnan era, but I remember TND being comfortably ahead of the other two.

    Oddly, though, one of the things GE has going for it is that it's Serra's only one—that alone is enough to make it distinct, giving to it by default the thing which Barry had by extreme talent, i.e. despite being the same guy he managed to give to each film a distinct sound. Neither of Arnold nor Newman have been able to do that.

    So two decades later looking back at TND, part of what might have been its uniqueness sound-wise is lost in all the other Arnold scores. Whereas GE might be more atmospheric and stand out as particularly different because Serra never did another one.

    Parts of the GE score is horrible, some of it is all right, and there are also several brilliant pieces.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,152
    The only parts that are outright horrible is the end song. The rest is dated, sure, but still very loved for its time. People didn't start criticising the score until after the millennium.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,585
    @Mendes4Lyfe -- I hated the soundtrack to GE immediately. Admittedly I'm a sour-puss in general when it comes to the one-offs. My feelings for them run from horror (Conti and Serra (with, one or two nice tunes each)), to accepting ('77s discopade), to liking'ish (LTK) to almost loving LALD (but this affection has come quite late in life; hated it as a kid).

    For the longest time, it just didn't feel like a complete Bond film to me if it didn't have Barry... I'm more accepting as I enter these twilight years of mine.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2018 Posts: 23,883
    Strog wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Strog wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Other controversial opinion: Spottiswoode was betrayed by poor material otherwise he might have been praised as much as Campbell.
    I'm on board with this. GE and TND are always next to each other in my rankings; GE edging out TND, but not by much. As a repackaging of classic Bond in the form of a 90s action films, GE's script has the advantage. But not majorly. I don't know if I could comparatively call TND's material poor. They're similar films to me.

    It's a very generic plot, often by the number, with a few dead ends. Paris Carver has a past with Bond so they can get in bed faster and her death is quickly meaningless. But I think Spottiswoode made some really thrilling action scenes. Large scale and low key.
    I don't mind the generic in TND so much. Same as I don't mind it in GE. For me what elevates GE's script and reliably lands it above TND in my rankings is the focus on Natalya. I love seeing her side of the story unfold and weave through the narrative with Bond's end until they join up.
    TND is the definition of generic for me, but I agree with you on Natalya. She is a top 2 or 3 Bond girl for me and dramatically elevates the film. It has a certain old school flavour to it which I like too. It's a connective film between the old classic era and the modern Babs period which began in earnest with TND/TWINE.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I actually find TND a bit too much of a techno thriller to be truly old style. And Paris is both miscast and disappointing for the reason stated above. And Way Lin truly was a bit too believable as a "Bond's equal" Bond girl. There's too many things that irk me with TND. But Spottiswoode's direction is very good.
    Agreed. If they had just injected a bit more genuine romantic flavour into it (something which Gilbert never forgot to do despite his larger than life plots) then I think it would have been a far better film, despite the weak finale. The Bond 'girls' are quite poor in this imho. No chemistry with Bond.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I actually think GE has its own character, something TND lacks. It's also my issue with LTK.
    Agreed again on TND although I think LTK has character.
    The only parts that are outright horrible is the end song. The rest is dated, sure, but still very loved for its time. People didn't start criticising the score until after the millennium.
    I agree. I'm a huge fan of the score, and all the other one-offs. I wish Newman had stayed a one-off quite frankly.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited March 2018 Posts: 5,993
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I actually find TND a bit too much of a techno thriller to be truly old style. And Paris is both miscast and disappointing for the reason stated above. And Way Lin truly was a bit too believable as a "Bond's equal" Bond girl. There's too many things that irk me with TND. But Spottiswoode's direction is very good.

    I was listening to the soundtrack the other day and you're right, it is good, especially the use of Surrender.

    I'd heard that Hatcher was a pain on set so this is unlikely, but it occurred to me that the film might have been stronger if she survived and we had an evil husband-and-wife team for once.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    echo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I actually find TND a bit too much of a techno thriller to be truly old style. And Paris is both miscast and disappointing for the reason stated above. And Way Lin truly was a bit too believable as a "Bond's equal" Bond girl. There's too many things that irk me with TND. But Spottiswoode's direction is very good.

    I was listening to the soundtrack the other day and you're right, it is good, especially the use of Surrender.

    I'd heard that Hatcher was a pain on set so this is unlikely, but it occurred to me that the film might have been stronger if she survived and we had an evil husband-and-wife team for once.

    It isn t too late. They can still use Blofeld/Bunt.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited March 2018 Posts: 17,694
    Controversial opinion- Diamonds Are Forever is the best Bond song. Followed by Goldfinger, and Living Daylights. TND K.D. Lang end credit version would be #2 for me if it was used up front. But my absolute favourite ever is this version of SPECTRE's Sam Smith song-

    God this girl is a gift that needs to keep on giving....
    So shoot at me now. ;)
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