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Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    noSolaceleft wrote: »
    Roadphill wrote: »
    I couldn't agree more with the above posters.

    The foster brother debacle is the single most damaging thing in the history of the series.

    A couple of years on and I still can't believe they did it.

    I know so well how you feel. I can't get over it myself. I wish we could sent Arnie back in time to correct it Terminator style.

    It almost ruins You Only Live Twice for me. Thankfully it's at least an alternate timeline.
    Speaking of YOLT, I wish they hadn't added the scar in SP. It really wasn't necessary.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    Posts: 12,837
    bondjames wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    noSolaceleft wrote: »
    Roadphill wrote: »
    I couldn't agree more with the above posters.

    The foster brother debacle is the single most damaging thing in the history of the series.

    A couple of years on and I still can't believe they did it.

    I know so well how you feel. I can't get over it myself. I wish we could sent Arnie back in time to correct it Terminator style.

    It almost ruins You Only Live Twice for me. Thankfully it's at least an alternate timeline.
    Speaking of YOLT, I wish they hadn't added the scar in SP. It really wasn't necessary.

    It didn't bother me but I agree it was unnecessary. When Bond wakes up and sees the cat staring at him I got goosebumps. But the scar just didn't give me any sort of fanboy thrill at all. I didn't dislike that they added it, just didn't care either way.

    The scar was specific to Pleasance, and Blofeld didn't even wear a nehru jacket in the earlier films. I think they were right to keep the cat because that's a great bit of iconography but the rest I can take or leave.
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,500
    I watched Inglorius Bastards on television yesterday. Waltz is so fantastic you're lost for words. I don't know why his Blofeld ended up so tame...
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Possibly Mendes fault, Waltz certainly eluded to it in interviews.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Kicking: Impossible
    Posts: 6,730
    I'd like to see him take another stab at it. I liked him very much in Spectre, but I think he could deliver even more.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    I thought all the performances were bad or at least not good in spectre which is a sign of bad direction
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,473
    jobo wrote: »
    I watched Inglorius Bastards on television yesterday. Waltz is so fantastic you're lost for words. I don't know why his Blofeld ended up so tame...

    The writing definitely didn't help. Tarantino definitely helps elevate those performances with cracking dialogue.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Tarantino is indeed a master at delivering compelling and engrossing dialogue.

    I think it's more than that though. He knows how to make a scene tense. That opening section in the Frenchman's (LaPadite's) home is a masterclass in step by step tension building. It's so simple and yet so effective at keeping us on edge. So much so in fact that at the end when Shosanna escapes one almost feels compelled to let out a huge sigh of relief.

    They tried to replicate this approach in SP with Waltz at both the conference table and again during the drill sequence but sadly neither did anything for me.
  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,600
    Yes, Waltz's performance was not the defining factor with either movie, it was the script and the direction. The stakes were not high enough in SP but in IB, the stakes were very high. It's a cop out IMHO to blame Waltz re SP when there are clearly other issues. Waltz could have produced the finest performance of his career in SP and it would have made little diference.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,473
    patb wrote: »
    Yes, Waltz's performance was not the defining factor with either movie, it was the script and the direction. The stakes were not high enough in SP but in IB, the stakes were very high. It's a cop out IMHO to blame Waltz re SP when there are clearly other issues. Waltz could have produced the finest performance of his career in SP and it would have made little diference.

    I don't think anyone is blaming Waltz for SP, and if they are, then they shouldn't. A great actor can only do so much with bad dialogue.

    I think Halle Berry, with a proper script, can really shine in her acting ability, but it's hard to sell "Yo mama" in a convincing way.
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    Yes, Waltz's performance was not the defining factor with either movie, it was the script and the direction. The stakes were not high enough in SP but in IB, the stakes were very high. It's a cop out IMHO to blame Waltz re SP when there are clearly other issues. Waltz could have produced the finest performance of his career in SP and it would have made little diference.

    I don't think anyone is blaming Waltz for SP, and if they are, then they shouldn't. A great actor can only do so much with bad dialogue.

    I think Halle Berry, with a proper script, can really shine in her acting ability, but it's hard to sell "Yo mama" in a convincing way.

    It seems the more famous the co-star,the worse dialogue they seem to get .

  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,473
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    Yes, Waltz's performance was not the defining factor with either movie, it was the script and the direction. The stakes were not high enough in SP but in IB, the stakes were very high. It's a cop out IMHO to blame Waltz re SP when there are clearly other issues. Waltz could have produced the finest performance of his career in SP and it would have made little diference.

    I don't think anyone is blaming Waltz for SP, and if they are, then they shouldn't. A great actor can only do so much with bad dialogue.

    I think Halle Berry, with a proper script, can really shine in her acting ability, but it's hard to sell "Yo mama" in a convincing way.

    It seems the more famous the co-star,the worse dialogue they seem to get .

    Right? I almost wonder if they care less about the dialogue the "bigger" a star is, assuming they can handle whatever is thrown their way compared to someone who isn't as proven.
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    Yes, Waltz's performance was not the defining factor with either movie, it was the script and the direction. The stakes were not high enough in SP but in IB, the stakes were very high. It's a cop out IMHO to blame Waltz re SP when there are clearly other issues. Waltz could have produced the finest performance of his career in SP and it would have made little diference.

    I don't think anyone is blaming Waltz for SP, and if they are, then they shouldn't. A great actor can only do so much with bad dialogue.

    I think Halle Berry, with a proper script, can really shine in her acting ability, but it's hard to sell "Yo mama" in a convincing way.

    It seems the more famous the co-star,the worse dialogue they seem to get .

    Right? I almost wonder if they care less about the dialogue the "bigger" a star is, assuming they can handle whatever is thrown their way compared to someone who isn't as proven.

    Which is unfair on good actors like Waltz and Berry,they cant have been happy with it.Sir Anthony Hopkins turned down his Bond turn over a script as well.


  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,600
    "It seems the more famous the co-star,the worse dialogue they seem to get ."

    Albert Finney had some fantastic lines in SF IMHO
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,788
    patb wrote: »
    "It seems the more famous the co-star,the worse dialogue they seem to get ."

    Albert Finney had some fantastic lines in SF IMHO

    I don't worship SF as much as many fans, but I do think Finney was one of the best things about it.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited September 2017 Posts: 23,883
    patb wrote: »
    "It seems the more famous the co-star,the worse dialogue they seem to get ."

    Albert Finney had some fantastic lines in SF IMHO
    SF had very good dialogue exchanges imho. That's one of the reasons I like the film. Some of it felt a little contrived and pretentious at times but still, I liked it. It gave off an old school retro feel wrapped in a modern snazzy threads.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 14,831
    bondjames wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    "It seems the more famous the co-star,the worse dialogue they seem to get ."

    Albert Finney had some fantastic lines in SF IMHO
    SF had very good dialogue exchanges imho. That's one of the reasons I like the film. Some of it felt a little contrived and pretentious at times but still, I liked it. It gave off an old school retro feel wrapped in a modern snazzy threads.

    Dialogues are Logan's strength. That and characters. It's his plot that are generally weak.
  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,600
    Its interesting from a script writing perspective and then a viewers perspective which "killer lines" of dialogue you take away with you after watching a movie and also the ones that get a reaction from the audience (very reserved in the UK). A few choice words within the right context, delivered with skill, ellevates a movie up to the next level. "Welcome to Scotland" is an obvious example and, for me, one of the highlights of the whole series (in terms of economcal one liners) and also shows that Bond does not have to get all the best lines. Contrast that with SP. What great, memorable lines stay in the memory from SP. I struggle on that.
    We talk about locations, lighting, editing etc etc but, in time, I believe, it is great dialogue (from great characters) from movies that we carry with us over the years.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    The only bit of dialogue I didn't like from Finney was "sometimes, the old ways are the best" as Moneypenny had said exactly the same line earlier in the film.
  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,600
    Agreed, that was plain weird but Im not convinced everyone picked up that the line was a repeat. Being relatively youthful, the line was wasted on her (what does she know about the old ways?) so Finney should have had the line to himself.

    Now, given that its just fact that SF did so well and that this is very likely to be DC's last, how about bringing Finney back for some quality banter with Bond? Given their history , it would make perfect sense that they would keep in touch. Or would that come over as just a desperate ploy to bring back the SF magic?

    PS sorry for the ramble: IMHO, they misssed a trick with SP. They used a DVD as a method for M to leave a message which raised questions re why she did this, when and why not just speak to Bond directly as they hours in the car together. M and Kincade had some time in the church and M suspected that Bond would be killed by Silva or not get to the church on time so she could have confided in Kinkade . The SP scene with Bond watching the DVD falls flat to me (never good to see Bond watching the TV). Kincade visiting Bond out of the blue with a quality bottle of Scotch and some secret intel via a dying M would have provided more warmth/intrigue ?
  • noSolaceleftnoSolaceleft
    Posts: 1,162
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    "It seems the more famous the co-star,the worse dialogue they seem to get ."

    Albert Finney had some fantastic lines in SF IMHO
    SF had very good dialogue exchanges imho. That's one of the reasons I like the film. Some of it felt a little contrived and pretentious at times but still, I liked it. It gave off an old school retro feel wrapped in a modern snazzy threads.

    Dialogues are Logan's strength. That and characters. It's his plot that are generally weak.

    Seems to me this description fits SF to a big fat T.
  • noSolaceleftnoSolaceleft
    Posts: 1,162
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    The only bit of dialogue I didn't like from Finney was "sometimes, the old ways are the best" as Moneypenny had said exactly the same line earlier in the film.

    I'm afraid that's just Mendes' standard modus operandi. Hammering your theme until the cows come home.
  • noSolaceleftnoSolaceleft
    Posts: 1,162
    patb wrote: »
    Agreed, that was plain weird but Im not convinced everyone picked up that the line was a repeat. Being relatively youthful, the line was wasted on her (what does she know about the old ways?) so Finney should have had the line to himself.

    Now, given that its just fact that SF did so well and that this is very likely to be DC's last, how about bringing Finney back for some quality banter with Bond? Given their history , it would make perfect sense that they would keep in touch. Or would that come over as just a desperate ploy to bring back the SF magic?

    PS sorry for the ramble: IMHO, they misssed a trick with SP. They used a DVD as a method for M to leave a message which raised questions re why she did this, when and why not just speak to Bond directly as they hours in the car together. M and Kincade had some time in the church and M suspected that Bond would be killed by Silva or not get to the church on time so she could have confided in Kinkade . The SP scene with Bond watching the DVD falls flat to me (never good to see Bond watching the TV). Kincade visiting Bond out of the blue with a quality bottle of Scotch and some secret intel via a dying M would have provided more warmth/intrigue ?

    Your PS implies that there really had a plan about how the story would move along. So many here seem to think this way. To my mind that's completely ridiculous. These people don't even have the foresight or even interest to make a movie with a half decent and coherent story line. Do you really think they plan two movies ahead? It's one of many reasons why I consider all those Theories about what is implied and intended in SF/SP regarding character arcs and such as bogus. Those two movies are a 4 1/2 hour long middle finger stuck into the face of everyone loving a logical and original storyline. Not to mention a hero to root for, not this joyless and dour guy in the way too tight pants.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    I enjoyed SF and liked SP enough. But you're right. It's pretty obvious they are making things up as they go along so I've stopped participating in threads that try and find logic in it.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 14,831
    noSolaceleft wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    "It seems the more famous the co-star,the worse dialogue they seem to get ."

    Albert Finney had some fantastic lines in SF IMHO
    SF had very good dialogue exchanges imho. That's one of the reasons I like the film. Some of it felt a little contrived and pretentious at times but still, I liked it. It gave off an old school retro feel wrapped in a modern snazzy threads.

    Dialogues are Logan's strength. That and characters. It's his plot that are generally weak.

    Seems to me this description fits SF to a big fat T.

    Every single Logan script, good or bad. Gladiator is exactly like that.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    The only bit of dialogue I didn't like from Finney was "sometimes, the old ways are the best" as Moneypenny had said exactly the same line earlier in the film.

    If you don t like repeated dialogue, you have come to the wrong place.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    The only bit of dialogue I didn't like from Finney was "sometimes, the old ways are the best" as Moneypenny had said exactly the same line earlier in the film.

    If you don t like repeated dialogue, you have come to the wrong place.

    I can't think of many instances when the same line is repeated by two completely unconnected characters in the same film.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    The only bit of dialogue I didn't like from Finney was "sometimes, the old ways are the best" as Moneypenny had said exactly the same line earlier in the film.

    If you don t like repeated dialogue, you have come to the wrong place.

    I can't think of many instances when the same line is repeated by two completely unconnected characters in the same film.

    I meant this place.
  • SeanCraigSeanCraig Germany
    Posts: 732
    patb wrote: »
    Contrast that with SP. What great, memorable lines stay in the memory from SP.
    "The author of all your pains" will stay ... but most likely not in the way it was intended
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,788
    I didn't like the Nolan inspired Bond Begins in CR.

    One of the things that I like about the original novel and the film version of DN is the fact that we just step into Bond's world without the 21st century need to have an origin story.

    The film is at its best from the train ride onwards in my opinion.
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