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Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    DaltonCraig007 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Bar CR, which is perfect.

    In my opinion the only perfect ending (climax + end scene) to a Bond film is TSWLM. I'm sadly ignoring CR because I'm counting the hospital sequence (with the awful armour and little finger lines) as part of the final act.

    Ah right, I didn't mind the hospital scenes at all. Thought both were good lines. TSWLM was a great ending for a Moore film, but it would come across as 'too light' in the Craig era. Barbara Bachs damp cleavage is reason enough to watch the end of TSWLM though.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    DaltonCraig007 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Bar CR, which is perfect.

    In my opinion the only perfect ending (climax + end scene) to a Bond film is TSWLM. I'm sadly ignoring CR because I'm counting the hospital sequence (with the awful armour and little finger lines) as part of the final act.

    "Just keeping the British end up, sir!"

    Probably the best of the cheesy Moore endings.

    All of Craig's epilogues have been good. Especially QoS's "I never left...."

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited April 2016 Posts: 23,883
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    DaltonCraig007 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Bar CR, which is perfect.

    In my opinion the only perfect ending (climax + end scene) to a Bond film is TSWLM. I'm sadly ignoring CR because I'm counting the hospital sequence (with the awful armour and little finger lines) as part of the final act.

    "Just keeping the British end up, sir!"

    Probably the best of the cheesy Moore endings.
    Agreed, I actually also like some of the other earlier Moore endings too, like LALD, TMWTGG (that slow boat out of China or wherever is so scenic), and MR ("I think he's attempting re-entry sir").

    I'm not a fan of FYEO ("Give us a kiss!") onwards.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,790
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Bar CR, which is perfect.

    Far from it. It's very good, but definitely not perfect.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    bondjames wrote: »
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    DaltonCraig007 wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    Bar CR, which is perfect.

    In my opinion the only perfect ending (climax + end scene) to a Bond film is TSWLM. I'm sadly ignoring CR because I'm counting the hospital sequence (with the awful armour and little finger lines) as part of the final act.

    "Just keeping the British end up, sir!"

    Probably the best of the cheesy Moore endings.
    Agreed, I actually also like some of the other earlier Moore endings too, like LALD, TMWTGG (that slow boat out of China or wherever is so scenic), and MR ("I think he's attempting re-entry sir").

    I'm not a fan of FYEO ("Give us a kiss!") onwards.

    Ah the ending of FYEO. It's hilarious yet notorious at the same time. Would have made a great 5 minute sketch.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    The best ending ever is of course the bridge sequence and Bond driving away with Swann in Spectre.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 14,834
    IncompetentHenchman wrote: »
    I definitely do not see Grant as the villain of FRWL. Come on. He is taking orders from Klebb, who was put in charge of Kronsteen's plan by Blofeld. Klebb is the main villain.

    One might plausibly argue that Orlov is the main villain in OP, that I might consider.

    An henchman can be the main villain. It has nothing to do with his place in his organization hierarchy. What matters is his relationship with the hero. In that respect Grant is the main antagonist.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited April 2016 Posts: 11,189
    Technically, couldn't Kronsteen be seen as the main villain? He was the mastermind behind the scheme. Blofeld was relying on the success of his work.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,480
    I usually disregard Blofeld as being the main villain in the first few, and see the 'main' role in FRWL going to Grant, as debatable as it is, even though he is lower on the totem pole than Blofeld/Kronsteen/Klebb.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    Thinking about it, I'd class Blofeld as the main villain in the film, eventhough he's not seen as much as Klebb/Kronsteen/Grant.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited April 2016 Posts: 15,690
    If Blofeld is considered as the main villain in FRWL and TB, then he would have to be the main villain in DN too, wouldn't he? Even though he's never seen or mentioned in the film, he'd still be higher ranked than Dr No himself.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited April 2016 Posts: 11,189
    DaltonCraig007 wrote: »
    If Blofeld is considered as the main villain in FRWL and TB, then he would have to be the main villain in DN too, wouldn't he? Even though he's never seen or mentioned in the film, he'd still be higher ranked than Dr No himself.

    Fair point.

    He's still IN the film though even if we never see his face.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Why this obsession with having one main villain?
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,480
    I wouldn't say it's an obsession, rather a discussion stemming from people arguing whether or not Renard or Elektra was the villain in TWINE, and now this, since we're given quite a few people in FRWL that could be seen as the 'main' villain.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited April 2016 Posts: 15,690
    If Renard is the main villain in TWINE because he 'created/turned' Elektra into a villainess, by that definition it would mean that Dr. Mortner is the main villain in AVTAK, as he actually did create Zorin (and possible May Day) through the steroid kids experiment.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I wouldn't say it's an obsession, rather a discussion stemming from people arguing whether or not Renard or Elektra was the villain in TWINE, and now this, since we're given quite a few people in FRWL that could be seen as the 'main' villain.

    I would say Renard and Elektra shared shared the villain duties in TWINE....

    In FRWL the villain is SPECTRE itself. An ensemble villain if you like...

  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 14,834
    DaltonCraig007 wrote: »
    If Renard is the main villain in TWINE because he 'created/turned' Elektra into a villainess, by that definition it would mean that Dr. Mortner is the main villain in AVTAK, as he actually did create Zorin (and possible May Day) through the steroid kids experiment.

    Except that's not why people advocating he's the main villain say he's the main villain. He's the main antagonist for pretty much the whole movie and he's set up at this nihilistic terrorist that strikes terror in the heart of even his followers.

    As for Blofeld he's not the main villain until YOLT. Before his involvement is too remote and passive.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,690
    Yes but during the events of TWINE, Renard strikes terror according to Elektra's plan so she can take control of her parents' oil empire. So during TWINE, Renard is working for Elektra, thus she should be considered the main villain. Remove Elektra from the film, and Renard would have been the main villain (a dangerous terrorist creating chaos everywhere he goes).
  • LudovicoLudovico
    edited April 2016 Posts: 14,834
    That is a moot point. In YOLT, Blofeld is on China's payroll. In CR, both novel and movie, Le Chiffre is strictly an banker for hire, he has his team but is constantly working under orders, and there is no uncertainty that he is not on top of the chain of command. He does not even die by Bond's hands. Nevertheless, he is the main villain. Renard, comparatively, is working for Elektra because he has feelings for her. And even if he was merely one of many henchmen in the Eketra King syndicate, he is the one set up against Bond from the beginning, he is thus the primary villain.

    Oh and in The Barber of Seville, Figaro is the hero and main character, even though he is someone else's sidekick.
  • IncompetentHenchmanIncompetentHenchman
    Posts: 1,817
    As far as I'm concerned:

    Dr. No is the main villain of DN
    Klebb is the main villain of FRWL
    Largo is the main villain of TB
    Blofeld is the main villain of YOLT, OHMSS and DAF
    Khan is the main villain of OP
    Whitaker is the main villain of TLD (but it could be Koskov)
    Elektra is the main villain of TWINE
    Le Chiffre is the main villain of CR
  • josiahjosiah
    edited April 2016 Posts: 1,386
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    DaltonCraig007 wrote: »
    If Blofeld is considered as the main villain in FRWL and TB, then he would have to be the main villain in DN too, wouldn't he? Even though he's never seen or mentioned in the film, he'd still be higher ranked than Dr No himself.

    Fair point.

    He's still IN the film though even if we never see his face.

    My reasoning for Blofeld being the main villain in FRWL (moreso than Klebb at least) isn't so much about where he is positioned in the hierarchy so much as it is that we see Klebb essentially trembling in fear in front of him. IMO the main villain can't be terrified of another villain on screen. If they are then I think there is either not a main villain or someone else is the main villain. In the case of CR I think Mr. White & Obanno are the lead onscreen villains because we see LeChiffre desperately begging for his life in their presence. I'm sure others will disagree, but I just don't see him as all that powerful. For me a lead villain has to be unrivaled on screen for power and begging for your life is not the act of a particularly powerful character. In the case of FRWL I tend to think Red Grant & Blofeld are the film's lead villains because Grant doesn't seem to fear anyone in the film and neither does Blofeld. Blofeld doesn't wish to have to inform the Russians of how plans have gone awry because SPECTRE has a reputation to preserve. Blofeld doesn't appear to be afraid of the Russians, but wishes to preserve the organization's (his own) reputation. Failure makes SPECTRE (Blofeld) look weak and that is unacceptable. He built this organization from the ground up and a single imperfection or crack in the foundation might send the whole thing crumbling down so all imperfections must be taken care of immediately.
  • stun_harvestingstun_harvesting
    Posts: 337
    I think it depends on what you define the "main villain" as. LeChiffre is the one who interacts with Bond the most by far, so by virtue of that, one might say he is the main villain. But his entire presence in the film is under the employment of Obanno and White, so you could argue that he's really the henchman there, even though Obanno plays the henchman role by being the brute and actually fighting Bond.

    For FRWL, Klebb's technically the main villain, but she's obviously just a henchman to Blofeld, who's more of an overseer of everything - he doesn't even interact with Bond.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The "main villain" is the one with the no. 1 billing on the posters and in the title sequence.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    The "main villain" is the one with the no. 1 billing on the posters and in the title sequence.

    Sean Connery Roger Moore Daniel Craig etc then. Marvelous.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    Does anyone think there are any existing Bond films where the main villain legitimately deserved top billing above whoever played Bond (like Jack Nicholson and Arnie in the case of Batman)?

    Would you have a problem if that ever happened?
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    If Bond 25 is called Blofeld, Waltz should get top billing.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    I agree @Birdleson. It was just a question I thought of after seeing that top billing comment.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    BondJasonBond006 wrote: »
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    The "main villain" is the one with the no. 1 billing on the posters and in the title sequence.

    Sean Connery Roger Moore Daniel Craig etc then. Marvelous.

    Maybe you are joking, but to clarify I meant the villain who gets first billing.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Not that Bond isn t a villain. Of course he is.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    edited April 2016 Posts: 9,020
    Of course I was joking. I'm always joking. I'm joking right now. That was a joke too. This too. And this.... "head explodes"...ouch :))

    Actually I'm trying to be you. Failing miserably I guess. You're the boss.
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