Does NO TIME TO DIE have the best ending in the franchise?

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  • Posts: 1,015
    I'd rate the Craig era endings with CR probably top, but Skyfall a close second. They both made you want to punch the air, (I wanted to punch something at the end of NTTD, but it wasn't the air!).
    SPECTRE was okay, I think it bookmarked the Craig era nicely. QoS though, didn't work for me so much. I thought he was a bit of a dick saying "I never left" and walking off like that. He wasn't that likable throughout the film, actually.

  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    edited January 2023 Posts: 554
    I’d give the worst ending to SP, and I attribute that to the final bit in the car. There should have been a line or two exchanged, rather than smiling in silence.

    Supposedly it was originally going to be Bond saying “we have all the time in the world”. That would have been great, because it would have given the ending a sense of dread! Is it a happy ending or is there something down the road that’ll end their happiness? Would have been a good segue to NTTD.
    Personally I really enjoy the smile. I think it conveys all it needs to.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited January 2023 Posts: 1,386
    I think SP's ending is very stylish and very well shot. Like CR & SF's ending, the scene has one of the best use of the Bond theme in Craig's Bond sparsely used Bond theme era.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited January 2023 Posts: 3,394
    I’d give the worst ending to SP, and I attribute that to the final bit in the car. There should have been a line or two exchanged, rather than smiling in silence.

    Supposedly it was originally going to be Bond saying “we have all the time in the world”. That would have been great, because it would have given the ending a sense of dread! Is it a happy ending or is there something down the road that’ll end their happiness? Would have been a good segue to NTTD.
    Personally I really enjoy the smile. I think it conveys all it needs to.

    True, to be honest, that "We Have All The Time In The World" doesn't need to replicate here, I didn't enjoyed it in NTTD.

    Such a lack of creativity (no originality), half of the aspects in the Bond-Madeleine romance were all a rehash/recycle or replicate of those past romances, even the train scene reminds me of the train scene/dinner that Bond and Vesper had in CR, and even some of the dialogues, one (I don't remember it particularly) felt like it came from Natalya in GE (I'm not sure is it about making choices, like "we always have a choice"), and confronting Bond about his killings.

    The romance that relied on replications, lack of uniqueness and distinctiveness, no originality, lack of creativity.

    That's one of the reasons too why I'm not a fan of it.
  • edited January 2023 Posts: 1,574
    DarthDimi wrote: »

    What's daft is to try to build a rigid continuity into this series. The Craig Bond is the only one that brings full continuity, and within its own boundaries.

    In the same way GL ruminates on souvenirs from previous films not starring him, the use of We Have All the Time in the World in NTTD is intended to remind us of a previous outing not starring DC. Or SC in DAF seeking revenge on Blofeld for the murder of Tracy whom he did not meet because Bond was played by another actor in another reality. Or RM visiting Tracy's grave even though Tracy was never in the RM reality or alternate universe, or however one wishes to think of each individual Bond's timeline. Which suggests, albeit awkward, the desire for continuity. While I accept a new actor playing Bond, I don't like the idea that each new Bond era simply wipes out the pasts of previous Bonds. When Felix changed from DN to GF, was that the same Felix, or a new Felix without an apparent past? When I read a Bond novel, I don't expect the character to be a different character because of a new author. (Horowitz understood what Deaver did not.) CR was a great beginning for the DC. Arguably it could have been a prequel to DN. Unfortunately adhering to the story arc removed all semblance of continuity and connection to previous Bonds and stories. While I object to killing off Bond, maybe it's for the best. I don't hate the DC series, I just think the writers and producers boxed themselves in. As a previous poster suggested, maybe this can be the series Bobby Ewing moment. Let's return to stand alone Bond stories.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,028
    CR couldn’t ever work as a prequel to DN because in both films Bond meets Felix for the first time.

    That’s actually one of my minor issues with DN: Felix is kind of a pointless addition. Why introduce him, and why have it be the first time Bond ever met him? Reading the novel really illustrated to me how his appearance was arbitrary. I guess they wanted Sean Connery to not hang out with a black guy so much.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,022
    Interesting take @MakeshiftPython I would think it was to add an American to the cast to help with Box Office. But I suppose race might have had something to do with it. Also by making it the first time they meet we get to play out the scenes with Mister Jones and then the whole brawl at Pussfellers.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,028
    I do think the book is better paced. Bond goes to Crab Key a lot quicker in the novel compared to the film. If I had to retain anything in the film, it would be the scenes with Professor Dent. Bond killing Dent in cold blood is such a major breakthrough in cinema for how to depict protagonists in films. It’s something you never saw heroes like Gary Cooper or Cary Grant do. It’s why I consider Bond an anti-hero. We’d see the 60s push that further with Clint Eastwood’s anti-heroes like in the Dollars trilogy.
  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    Posts: 554
    CR couldn’t ever work as a prequel to DN because in both films Bond meets Felix for the first time.

    That’s actually one of my minor issues with DN: Felix is kind of a pointless addition. Why introduce him, and why have it be the first time Bond ever met him? Reading the novel really illustrated to me how his appearance was arbitrary. I guess they wanted Sean Connery to not hang out with a black guy so much.
    He is basically unnecessary, but I think Lord and Connery fit too well together for me to take issue with it.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,637
    CR couldn’t ever work as a prequel to DN because in both films Bond meets Felix for the first time.

    That’s actually one of my minor issues with DN: Felix is kind of a pointless addition. Why introduce him, and why have it be the first time Bond ever met him? Reading the novel really illustrated to me how his appearance was arbitrary. I guess they wanted Sean Connery to not hang out with a black guy so much.
    He is basically unnecessary, but I think Lord and Connery fit too well together for me to take issue with it.

    I agree with that.
    The strongest ally Bond ever had, IMO, is Kerim, with Tanaka a close second.
  • Posts: 1,015
    CrabKey wrote: »
    While I accept a new actor playing Bond, I don't like the idea that each new Bond era simply wipes out the pasts of previous Bonds.

    I'm the same.
    Bond being the same character was always part of the fun of Bond movies for me. I've said on here lots of times that 'Brosnan sniffed the shoe', which is my way of saying no matter how outlandish, improbable and just ridiculous it is that it was the same man, it was the same man.
    Now there's two Bonds, because they killed the last one. So the next will be the third, or perhaps it'll be the same as the one before the last or what the f*ck does it matter anyway. They've kind of spoiled it for me.


  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,028
    CrabKey wrote: »
    While I accept a new actor playing Bond, I don't like the idea that each new Bond era simply wipes out the pasts of previous Bonds.

    I'm the same.
    Bond being the same character was always part of the fun of Bond movies for me. I've said on here lots of times that 'Brosnan sniffed the shoe', which is my way of saying no matter how outlandish, improbable and just ridiculous it is that it was the same man, it was the same man.
    Now there's two Bonds, because they killed the last one. So the next will be the third, or perhaps it'll be the same as the one before the last or what the f*ck does it matter anyway. They've kind of spoiled it for me.


    Depends how you look at it. Perhaps it’s really just a fun Easter egg for the fans, rather than the filmmakers explicitly telling us it’s supposed to be the exact same guy that fought Rosa Klebb in 1963. SF has Q make a remark about exploding pens and Bond has the same DB5 as Connery’s, doesn’t necessarily mean they’re literally connected.

    In the end, they’re just movies. Bond can die and live on in a different iteration. It’s not history set in stone.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,394
    CrabKey wrote: »
    While I accept a new actor playing Bond, I don't like the idea that each new Bond era simply wipes out the pasts of previous Bonds.

    I'm the same.
    Bond being the same character was always part of the fun of Bond movies for me. I've said on here lots of times that 'Brosnan sniffed the shoe', which is my way of saying no matter how outlandish, improbable and just ridiculous it is that it was the same man, it was the same man.
    Now there's two Bonds, because they killed the last one. So the next will be the third, or perhaps it'll be the same as the one before the last or what the f*ck does it matter anyway. They've kind of spoiled it for me.


    Depends how you look at it. Perhaps it’s really just a fun Easter egg for the fans, rather than the filmmakers explicitly telling us it’s supposed to be the exact same guy that fought Rosa Klebb in 1963. SF has Q make a remark about exploding pens and Bond has the same DB5 as Connery’s, doesn’t necessarily mean they’re literally connected.

    In the end, they’re just movies. Bond can die and live on in a different iteration. It’s not history set in stone.

    It's a floating timeline.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited January 2023 Posts: 2,946
    Isn't it down to Mendes that CraigBond had the same DB5 as Connery? Even Purvis and Wade wanted it to be the CR car but, apparently, Sam was adamant, so...ah well.
  • edited January 2023 Posts: 1,015
    In the end, they’re just movies. Bond can die and live on in a different iteration. It’s not history set in stone.

    Yes, I've been told many times to 'get over it, they're only movies'.
    It happens every time I try to point out the ridiculousness of a film dramatically killing off a character then saying he'll return in the credits ten minutes later.
    Seems I'm a very silly-billy.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,028
    In the end, they’re just movies. Bond can die and live on in a different iteration. It’s not history set in stone.

    Yes, I've been told many times to 'get over it, they're only movies'.
    It happens every time I try to point out the ridiculousness of a film dramatically killing off a character then saying he'll return in the credits ten minutes later.
    Seems I'm a very silly-billy.

    How is it ridiculous? We’re talking about a fictional character, not a historical figure.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 1,386
    There was a subtle rumble when James Bond Will Return showed up on screen....maybe to say James Bond didn't really die? I don't know.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,028
    The “James Bond Will Return” is referring to the next iteration that we all know is coming, and it’s not going to be Craig’s Bond.
  • Posts: 1,015
    How is it ridiculous? We’re talking about a fictional character, not a historical figure.

    How is it not ridiculous? They kill him, and they say he's not dead.

    Okay, they say he'll be back, but it'll be a different character. But it's still the same character. Just in a different 'timeline'.
    Look, I can see everyone here's great with it, and I'm obviously stuck in some alternate universe myself where I expect the makers of any movie I see to be honest with their narrative if they expect me to invest one iota of emotion in the movie.
    But seriously, can you imagine them saying 'Spartacus will be back', after the end of that movie? Or 'Scarface will be back'. You know, you've just seen them die.
    This is why I keep going on about sci-fi and comic books. Because they've done it there, they can do it with Bond and everyone in the world is okay with it but me.
    If they kill Ethan Hunt off, would it be okay to to say he's not dead at the end, and will be returning with a different actor in an alternate universe? I suppose it would to most.
    But anyway, as everyone says, it's only a movie. And if the next Bond author makes Bond gay, or a woman, it's only a book. Why bother caring?
  • Posts: 1,574
    No question. It's just a book, just a movie. Not real life. In the scheme of things, does it make a bit of difference who or what Bond is or if he dies? Just as long as it makes money. But here's the thing for me. As much as I love OHMSS, Bond and Blofeld meeting for the first time again after YOLT was the start of the timeline/continuity chaos. Is it best to ignore that stuff and just enjoy each film as they come without reflecting on what came before? Probably. Perhaps none of this would have mattered much to me had the series improved immeasurably and become more entertaining. I still like Bond films, but they're not as enjoyable as those early films.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,028
    How is it ridiculous? We’re talking about a fictional character, not a historical figure.

    How is it not ridiculous? They kill him, and they say he's not dead.

    They’re talking about the next Bond, not Craig. Most people understand that conceit.
  • edited January 2023 Posts: 3,069
    CR couldn’t ever work as a prequel to DN because in both films Bond meets Felix for the first time.

    That’s actually one of my minor issues with DN: Felix is kind of a pointless addition. Why introduce him, and why have it be the first time Bond ever met him? Reading the novel really illustrated to me how his appearance was arbitrary. I guess they wanted Sean Connery to not hang out with a black guy so much.

    There may well be an element of that unfortunately. But in fairness Leiter appearing and following Bond around during the first Jamaica scenes does give the film that sense of mystery/tension that it needed for the cinematic version of the story to work (ie. we the viewer, and of course Bond in this film, don't know who Leiter is, which really adds to that sense that Bond has to uncover this mystery while not knowing who to trust). It's the same logic for all the other changes/additions - Quarrel and Bond not knowing each other prior, the Jones scene, the addition of Professor Dent. It feels a lot more cat and mouse and gives more mystery for Bond to unravel. It arguably adds more stakes (or at least highlights more) the whole radio/missile jamming plot with the CIA getting involved.

    For me, the book doesn't quite have that same atmosphere. Apart from a rather obvious attempt to poison his fruit and a much better attempt to plant the centipede in his bed, he and Quarrel basically decide to go to Crab Key which, while very sensible, probably would have fallen a bit flat if adapted faithfully for the film version. That's not to say DN is a bad book - it's great, but I do think the most interesting stuff happens when Bond is first briefed by M and once he arrives at Crab Key.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,028
    The attempt at suspense with Leiter and Quarrel being unknown to Bond kinda drags the film for me, especially since they are just ultimately red herrings, and Leiter is even more pointless because he doesn’t really contribute to anything the way Quarrel does. That’s why it’s better to just cut all that out and jump straight to the adventure. Keep all the stuff with Dr. No observing Bond through the air ducts. The giant squid probably wouldn’t have been feasible for the low budget, and just made the film feel even more B level, so that would have had to been replaced with something else. But the film climax is more cinematic than the bird dung dumping so they were right to go that direction.
  • edited January 2023 Posts: 3,069
    The attempt at suspense with Leiter and Quarrel being unknown to Bond kinda drags the film for me, especially since they are just ultimately red herrings, and Leiter is even more pointless because he doesn’t really contribute to anything the way Quarrel does. That’s why it’s better to just cut all that out and jump straight to the adventure. Keep all the stuff with Dr. No observing Bond through the air ducts. The giant squid probably wouldn’t have been feasible for the low budget, and just made the film feel even more B level, so that would have had to been replaced with something else. But the film climax is more cinematic than the bird dung dumping so they were right to go that direction.

    For me the best thing about the DN novel is how fantastical and otherworldly it gets. Stuff like the staff at No's lair looking very pale and dead-eyed, the Giant Squid, No's appearance etc. I don't think the film was ever going to have that same atmosphere stylistically, even if the budget had been larger.

    In that sense I can understand why they instead decided to extend the plot in the way they did. When I first watched the film it the red herrings of Leiter and Quarrel did ultimately keep me engaged and again added to the mystery. I do agree on the whole though, there's a lot of stuff in DN that's actually quite unnecessary when you think about it (I mean, they even decided to keep the part where Bond has to give up his Beretta, which always confused me before I read the book).
  • Posts: 1,015
    They’re talking about the next Bond, not Craig. Most people understand that conceit.

    I understand it too. But I can still understand it and think it's ridiculous.

    Understanding it's not the problem.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,028
    They’re talking about the next Bond, not Craig. Most people understand that conceit.

    I understand it too. But I can still understand it and think it's ridiculous.

    Understanding it's not the problem.

    Because you want to view all the Bond films being part of the same narrative and NTTD shatters that?
  • edited January 2023 Posts: 1,015
    Because you want to view all the Bond films being part of the same narrative and NTTD shatters that?

    In a way. But I'm not that strict, I was quite happy with Craig's tenure being seen as the 'Bond begins' trilogy (or quadrilogy, it that's a word). I don't mind the chronology not working after all these years, but I liked being comfortable in the knowledge that all the different actors were playing the same character. I could still do that up to and including Spectre. But the ending of NTTD has forced me to accept that in the James Bond movie series, there are now two different James Bonds. The blonde one who died, and the other one. And perhaps the next will be the third? I don't know.
    It really doesn't matter, but it's knocked quite a bit of the fun out of of the series for me. The death scene meant nothing emotionally, it was just a big cringe. It wasn't the death of Bond, it was the death of a Bond.
    Being told "there'll be another Bond along soon" ten minutes after we're supposed to be shocked and moved by the death of Bond is just cheap, unfair, and really, really tacky. I'm amazed they even let it happen, but on seeing the people on here think I'm am absolute idiot for thinking like this, I'm beginning to think I should try and re-think it. But my common sense tells me killing off someone in a movie, and then saying "hey, he's not dead, we're going to bring him back" is just complete daftness. And people on here saying "what don't you understand? It's a different timeline*" doesn't make me think it's any less daft.
    I'm sorry about that.

    *Or reboot/character arc/alternate universe/incarnation etc etc. . .
  • Posts: 386
    The ending of NTTD is dumb. Not so much because James Bond dies but because the movie is poorly executed and doesn't earn the moment.

    To a lesser extent I cannot deny feeling some inertia at the concept of Bond dying. It just doesn't fit the DNA of his character - always on top, always an escape plan.

    In any case I feel as though they put all the good character beats into Casino Royale and had nowhere to go after that.

    Nihilism and redemption? QoS

    Mortality? SF

    I dunno what SP was trying to do. They were out of ideas for Bond.

    So what's left? Ah, let's kill him.

    The Craig era is a classic example of diminishing returns. It really is.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited January 2023 Posts: 2,946
    Diminishing returns? Technically, yes - because, for me, each of Craig's films was less good than its predecessor. The extent of it varied (eg. QOS wasn't quite as good as CR, SF was a lot worse than QOS, etc), but yep, I do rate Dan's films from best to worst in order of release. Thing is, though, even Craig's least good film (NTTD - IMO) was still great. It's a question of degree, I guess.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,028
    GetCarter wrote: »
    To a lesser extent I cannot deny feeling some inertia at the concept of Bond dying. It just doesn't fit the DNA of his character - always on top, always an escape plan.

    That’s why I admire the choice. NTTD is special precisely because this is the ONE instance where Bond can’t get out of a situation alive. It’s unprecedented for the character because some of us have it too wired into our heads that Bond should come out on top every time all the time. But it’s not such a betrayal of the character for me because one of the great appeals of Bond is his mortality.

    Admittedly, I never liked thinking of Bond as an aspirational figure like other fans seem to. I don’t want to actually be Bond. That’s not a fantasy that appeals to me. There’s plenty aspects about Bond and his world that still appeal to me greatly.
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