LTK unused Eric Clapton instrumental possibly found? (UPDATE: authenticity confirmed)

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  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 12,036
    It is very Kamen-y though; even the opening Bond theme trumpet fanfare has his love of staccato brass hits, and to my mind the guitar melody is vaguely related to the Bond theme itself. Plus the way the tune develops does seem quite similar to Edge of Darkness. If it really has nothing to do with the original session then I think it's all been constructed especially by someone who has a very good ear.
  • Posts: 5,863
    mtm wrote: »
    It is very Kamen-y though; even the opening Bond theme trumpet fanfare has his love of staccato brass hits, and to my mind the guitar melody is vaguely related to the Bond theme itself. Plus the way the tune develops does seem quite similar to Edge of Darkness. If it really has nothing to do with the original session then I think it's all been constructed especially by someone who has a very good ear.

    Absolutely, it is very Kamen. The opening sounds like the LTK gunbarrel. The guitar, the strings, very Kamen indeed.

    That has led me to consider the theory that if this track had a commercial release, it is more likely that it happened around 1989. It would make sense that there is some re-recording album out there, featuring a Bond theme variation in which someone tried to replicate the music style of the latest Bond film at the time.

    Not a certainty, simply more likely, in the event that the track was taken off a CD.

    If it's a "fan made" track, anything goes.

    And why does the audio in the right channel cut off at 19 seconds?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited February 2022 Posts: 12,036
    mattjoes wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    It is very Kamen-y though; even the opening Bond theme trumpet fanfare has his love of staccato brass hits, and to my mind the guitar melody is vaguely related to the Bond theme itself. Plus the way the tune develops does seem quite similar to Edge of Darkness. If it really has nothing to do with the original session then I think it's all been constructed especially by someone who has a very good ear.

    Absolutely, it is very Kamen. The opening sounds like the LTK gunbarrel. The guitar, the strings, very Kamen indeed.

    It actually weirdly feels like a missing link between Kamen's usual staccato horn style (see something like Hans' death in Die Hard) and his gunbarrel fanfare, which I hadn't quite twigged were related before. He especially likes to do that one repeated brass note which then repeats quicker and quicker (I feel like there's a lot of that in the Lethal Weapons) which we kind of see here, but still based fairly closely on the Bond fanfare, and then translated into a more original take for his LTK gunbarrel.
    It doesn't mean it's real, but it does make it more convincing.
    mattjoes wrote: »
    That has led me to consider the theory that if this track had a commercial release, it is more likely that it happened around 1989. It would make sense that there is some re-recording album out there, featuring a Bond theme variation in which someone tried to replicate the music style of the latest Bond film at the time.

    Yeah that's a good thought. To me the brass stuff sounds kind of thin and non-synth, like they have only a few players (which might be wrong); which would be a bit odd as it sounds like the Flick/Clapton sessions were just the four or so of them without a bigger band containing brass. Also the strings sound like synth, but they don't sound like the synth strings you hear on both Edge of Darkness and the LTK score, and if Kamen used that sound on both you'd think he'd be using them at this point in between the two.


  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,487
    If this was the real deal, I am happy it didn t end up in the film.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 12,036
    The plot thickens! Here we get the side of the guy who uploaded the track to Soundcloud; it's a thread so you'll need to click through

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 6,825
    Very interesting.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited February 2022 Posts: 12,036
    That’s always been another thing which has complicated the veracity of this for me: as Mattjoes said, this was posted by a Clapton fan rather than a Bond one, but the Kamen Bond bits sound so believable.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited February 2022 Posts: 12,036
    @mattjoes So now Andy Glen, music supervisor on LTK, has now seemingly confirmed it is the real thing.



  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 12,036
    Interesting, thanks! It seems that Mr Flick may not be able to tell conclusively either way.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,507
    A great fine indeed, but no, I didn’t like that one bit. It sounds horrible to be honest. Kamen’s Licence Revoked is far far better.

    I'm not a fan of it either, but I don't think it was intended for public consumption. That's just "messin' in the studio" kind of stuff.
  • Posts: 9,349
    Its far better then the Gladys knight track we actually got
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 6,825
    Would have been preferable to this:

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 12,036
    I actually quite like If You Asked Me To. It’s quite catchy.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,191
    One of the more underrated songs in the canon. Celine made a bundle from it.
  • Posts: 825
    So, in there there is a second version "reel to reel master copy" ?

  • edited March 2022 Posts: 1,661
    Maybe the way to resolve this mystery is to ask Eric Clapton?

    https://www.facebook.com/ericclapton

    If someone contacted him via his Facebook page he may reply and confirm if that is the track he worked on. I'm sure he would give the definitive answer (assuming he wishes to reply).

    My personal feeling, just a guess, is it's legitimate. The song reminds me of the Michael Kamen/Sting/Eric Clapton track It's Probably Me featured in Lethal Weapon 3 (1992):



    The guitar section around the 2:24 mark onwards sounds very similar to the Bond track. Near identical production. It's Probably Me sounds kinda like a Kamen/Clapton Bond theme.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 2022 Posts: 12,036
    It does yeah. I would guess, to play Devil's Advocate and without knowing that world very well, that there are probably quite a lot 'Clapton sound' effects pedals out there and a few people who can imitate his style of playing as he's been around so long; but I do also tend to think the Kamen sound sounds pretty accurate, and I'd feel like there are fewer people who could do that. And you'd have to be able to fake both which is sort of double the complexity, and if you could- why would you bother? Plus you'd have to find an example of the demo tape from the recording studio and fake that image too... I know some fakers get off on it this sort of thing but it seems a lot of effort.
    James Page has said on Facebook that certain superfans who have pooh-poohed it will have egg on their faces; not sure if that means he has some extra proof in the pipeline or just that the Andy Glen authentication seems fairly positive.
    I guess we could try asking Clapton, but he does seem quite litigious so we might all get sued! :D




    And obviously if you haven't heard Edge of Darkness, to me it has a similar feel:

  • Posts: 1,661
    I can't imagine it would have been the official theme tune even if legit. Maybe put over the end credits of LTK? Might have worked. The Gladys Knight song would have been the obvious choice for main theme.









  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 6,825
    Someone verified that it was meant for the end credits. That sounds more likely than an instrumental title sequence.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 12,036
    Who said that?

    Personally I don't think this was ever meant to be the finished version.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 12,036
    By the looks of comments on Facebook, MI6-HQ is about to reveal something about this track, keep an eye on their news page. Will it be proven or debunked I wonder?
  • edited March 2022 Posts: 5,863
    I have been quite busy. So many interesting developments.

    mtm wrote: »
    The plot thickens! Here we get the side of the guy who uploaded the track to Soundcloud; it's a thread so you'll need to click through

    Thank you. I too had contacted Asian_Bond asking for more information.

    When you posted this, I decided to message Steve Ferrone on Facebook and ask him about the track. I knew getting an answer was a long shot, and indeed he hasn't replied yet. But maybe he will. I could also post about it in his fan group, which he appears to read at least occasionally.

    mtm wrote: »
    Interesting to read about the Andy Glen stuff. He implies that it is the real track, but pity that he never outright says that. It would be refreshing to hear someone directly connected with the film production say "yes, that's the track, I'm completely sure" or "no, that's not the track, I'm completely sure."

    Thank you very much for sharing. Vic Flick had expressed slight uncertainty in the comment posted on the James Bond Music group, but I think that was just about the Bond theme being part of the LTK track. The last line of this other comment is quite telling: "He won't say the track isn't the right one but he won't authenticate it either." It just begs for further verification, meaning asking more people.

    One other thing I consider highly significant and I don't think has been mentioned anywhere. Vic Flick says he doesn't recall all the brass. Well, the brass and strings are synths in the SoundCloud audio. Is it then possible that the track was recorded without the synths and they were added later? That would fit with "more subtle" vibe mentioned by Vic, as he would have participated in the recording without the more bombastic elements being present.

    Of course, there remains the fact Vic thinks the Bond theme wasn't part of the track, but Stephen McLaughlin said the track had "a kind of quote" of it. Unfortunately, who knows what he meant by "a kind".

    mtm wrote: »
    (...) but I do also tend to think the Kamen sound sounds pretty accurate, and I'd feel like there are fewer people who could do that. And you'd have to be able to fake both which is sort of double the complexity, and if you could- why would you bother? Plus you'd have to find an example of the demo tape from the recording studio and fake that image too... I know some fakers get off on it this sort of thing but it seems a lot of effort.
    The Bond theme guitar of the theme sounds a lot like the guitar of the gunbarrel, as well. I don't think we had discussed that particular aspect before.

    mtm wrote: »
    James Page has said on Facebook that certain superfans who have pooh-poohed it will have egg on their faces; not sure if that means he has some extra proof in the pipeline or just that the Andy Glen authentication seems fairly positive.
    I think I know who Page is referring to. I haven't been satisfied with his comments, I must say.

    He says the Bond theme is not part of the track, seeing it appears to be to some extent, per Stephen McLaughlin's words.

    He says the Bond theme parts at the beginning and the end of the SoundCloud track were taken from a compilation album and pasted together with the middle of the track. He mentions Andromeda Project. I checked their Bond themes album and as far as I can tell, the bits at the beginning and the end couldn't have come from that, as the style is way different. He also mentions the London Metropolitan Orchestra, but I don't know what recordings of Bond music they have done. I might have poor searching skills, I don't know. But the SoundCloud track has a synth orchestra, not a real one.

    I also considered he might have meant that someone had done a mockup of the music in the compilation album for the potentially fake track. I don't think that's the case with Andromeda. Their Bond theme rendition is fairly traditional, except it's performed on synths. And I don't know about the London Metropolitan Orchestra.

    He does say he asked his sources about the SoundCloud track and it wasn't the real one. It appears he was thorough about it, but I just wish he could just say who it was that he asked.
  • edited March 2022 Posts: 5,863
    @moneyofpropre2 What's the name of the Facebook group with the comment about the track?

    Edit: Never mind, it's "James Bond Enthusiasts."
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 12,036
    mattjoes wrote: »
    I have been quite busy. So many interesting developments.

    mtm wrote: »
    The plot thickens! Here we get the side of the guy who uploaded the track to Soundcloud; it's a thread so you'll need to click through

    Thank you. I too had contacted Asian_Bond asking for more information.

    When you posted this, I decided to message Steve Ferrone on Facebook and ask him about the track. I knew getting an answer was a long shot, and indeed he hasn't replied yet. But maybe he will. I could also post about it in his fan group, which he appears to read at least occasionally.

    mtm wrote: »
    Interesting to read about the Andy Glen stuff. He implies that it is the real track, but pity that he never outright says that. It would be refreshing to hear someone directly connected with the film production say "yes, that's the track, I'm completely sure" or "no, that's not the track, I'm completely sure."

    Thank you very much for sharing. Vic Flick had expressed slight uncertainty in the comment posted on the James Bond Music group, but I think that was just about the Bond theme being part of the LTK track. The last line of this other comment is quite telling: "He won't say the track isn't the right one but he won't authenticate it either." It just begs for further verification, meaning asking more people.

    One other thing I consider highly significant and I don't think has been mentioned anywhere. Vic Flick says he doesn't recall all the brass. Well, the brass and strings are synths in the SoundCloud audio. Is it then possible that the track was recorded without the synths and they were added later? That would fit with "more subtle" vibe mentioned by Vic, as he would have participated in the recording without the more bombastic elements being present.

    Of course, there remains the fact Vic thinks the Bond theme wasn't part of the track, but Stephen McLaughlin said the track had "a kind of quote" of it. Unfortunately, who knows what he meant by "a kind".

    mtm wrote: »
    (...) but I do also tend to think the Kamen sound sounds pretty accurate, and I'd feel like there are fewer people who could do that. And you'd have to be able to fake both which is sort of double the complexity, and if you could- why would you bother? Plus you'd have to find an example of the demo tape from the recording studio and fake that image too... I know some fakers get off on it this sort of thing but it seems a lot of effort.
    The Bond theme guitar of the theme sounds a lot like the guitar of the gunbarrel, as well. I don't think we had discussed that particular aspect before.

    Which of course, is Vic.
    mattjoes wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    James Page has said on Facebook that certain superfans who have pooh-poohed it will have egg on their faces; not sure if that means he has some extra proof in the pipeline or just that the Andy Glen authentication seems fairly positive.
    I think I know who Page is referring to. I haven't been satisfied with his comments, I must say.

    Is that someone commenting on the Facebook JB music group?
  • Posts: 5,863
    mtm wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    James Page has said on Facebook that certain superfans who have pooh-poohed it will have egg on their faces; not sure if that means he has some extra proof in the pipeline or just that the Andy Glen authentication seems fairly positive.
    I think I know who Page is referring to. I haven't been satisfied with his comments, I must say.

    Is that someone commenting on the Facebook JB music group?

    That's what I assumed. I don't know, maybe I'm projecting, haha. But I don't think so.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson Moderator
    edited March 2022 Posts: 1,699
    I just listened for the first time. It sounds like an '80s Clapton pastiche to me, rather than the real thing. I had seen Clapton live both before and after this recording was made. That bares little relevance, but hopefully just showing that I am not totally coming out of left field. Admittedly, his electric playing had become demonstrably lazy late in the decade, but this just sounds like someone mimicking a couple of the type of sustained notes that Clapton is likely remembered for by the casual fan. I understand that "he" is laying the solo track over existing tracks, hence he's not intrinsically woven into the song, but if that's all he's going to contribute, a sad attempt at recreating a few go-to lines from his more emotive slow leads of the past, what was the point? It could well be him, but if it is, it's pretty disappointing. Then again, it wasn't used in the film for a reason.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 2022 Posts: 12,036
    Yeah that’s what makes it hard to tell if it’s real or not: the original track was known to be not very good and a rushed effort, so it’s very tricky to judge its veracity on the basis of quality as we’ve pretty much only heard stuff from the two of them which was good enough to be released. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I have a friend who’s seen Clapton many times and knows his stuff well, and he was also a little dubious.
  • Posts: 5,863
    This CinemaBlend article on the LTK track mentions a GuitarPlayer interview with Vic Flick.

    Vic Flick wrote:
    A guy called me from the studios in South London to do a couple of hours work on the title. When I arrived, there were a few guys with suits. I said, “What the hell is all this about?” There was also Eric Clapton and conductor/composer Michael Kamen. We video-recorded it twice in an apartment on the River Thames.

    It had quite an impact, with drums, bass, percussionists, Clapton, and me. It was a good, basic guitar thing. The two cassettes have disappeared. That would be like finding the Holy Grail

    It had quite an impact, with drums, bass, percussionists, Clapton, and me. It was a good, basic guitar thing. After we finished, one of the suits said, “We’d like to sign you up to be a featured soloist.” Off they went back to America with their briefcases. I waited and waited.

    I eventually phoned: “What’s happening about my being a star?” Kamen said, “Sorry Vic. That’s all off. You’re not going to believe this. Gladys Knight and the Pips are doing it.” Nobody else has heard our recording. It’s something everybody’s been searching for. The two cassettes have disappeared. That would be like finding the Holy Grail.

    It was recorded in an apartment. No orchestra, going by Flick's words (not to mention fitting one in an apartment doesn't seem logical). That would explain the necessity to add an orchestra post-recording, if they decided they wanted one. It's possible that the synth one was temporary.

    As usual, this is confirmation of nothing, it's just some food for thought.
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