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What if Goldeneye had an amazing score?

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  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,980
    If Barry had done it it would have been lovely, but it would also have been probably his most lethargic and classical Bond score because that's where he was then. As Darth says, it would have changed the feel of the film completely. It would have probably given it more beauty but perhaps have taken away from its energy slightly.
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,500
    My biggest problem with the Serra score, apart from the fact that I am not a fan of the music in general, is that it makes the film feel very dated. A Barry score would have made it more timeless, at least according to my tastes.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,980
    I don't care about things being dated: it's 25 years old. That isn't this year's model of Ferrari anymore, and James Bond is wearing a cravat.
    :D
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,500
    mtm wrote: »
    I don't care about things being dated: it's 25 years old. That isn't this year's model of Ferrari anymore, and James Bond is wearing a cravat.
    :D


    I guess it comes down to being reminded of tropes from past eras you are not fond of, and for me that techno-synth sound is one of them. In general I think there is an element of "timelessnes" to many of the Bond films which I appreciate. Yes, there is a characteristic 60s, 70s and 80s feel to many of them, but rarely in a way that is annoying or make them feel like period pieces.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited June 2020 Posts: 8,025
    True, Barry wasn’t really known as an action composer by the 90s anymore, with something like THE SPECIALIST being a big exception for where his career was.

    All the Bond films are a product of their time. For example, with Barry’s use of the moog synthesizer in OHMSS, it certainly can’t be mistaken for anything other than late 60s.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited June 2020 Posts: 8,025
    .
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2020 Posts: 14,980
    jobo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I don't care about things being dated: it's 25 years old. That isn't this year's model of Ferrari anymore, and James Bond is wearing a cravat.
    :D


    I guess it comes down to being reminded of tropes from past eras you are not fond of, and for me that techno-synth sound is one of them. In general I think there is an element of "timelessnes" to many of the Bond films which I appreciate. Yes, there is a characteristic 60s, 70s and 80s feel to many of them, but rarely in a way that is annoying or make them feel like period pieces.

    I don't really get that to be honest: I'm not sure there's anything more 60s than the spy craze; then you have Roger and his flares, digital watches, disco.. it's all in there. I cant' get annoyed by films being made when they were made. It's like being annoyed at Charlie Chaplin for being silent.
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    True, Barry wasn’t really known as an action composer by the 90s anymore, with something like THE SPECIALIST being a big exception for where his career was.

    Yeah, although of course that works very well (even if I think the romantic theme is where his hear lies in that film). It works as a dramatic action score, even though the orchestra has that weird echoey feel he seemed to like at that time. I don't think I've ever seen Mercury Rising, must try that at some point just for his input.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,791
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    True! I have yet to hear a Barry score that doesn't bring the magic. Whatever my thoughts on TMWTGG, the score for that film is simple but effective and bloody good. The thought that Barry put it all together in, what, 3 weeks or so?, makes it all the more fantastic. Barry's scores also elevate weaker or stranger Bond films to a higher level. Where would the likes of DAF or MR be without the Barry magic? And Kevin Costner got lucky with Dances With Wolves. It's a great film as-is, but Barry's score makes it perfect.

    As for GE, I'm sure a Barry score would have made the film "lovelier" but it would also have made the film different. And that's something I'm not sure I'd want. Example: Onatopp's little car chase game with Bond. Okay, that's some weird 'new age' funky stuff--almost undefinable. But here are these two larger-than-life characters in their supercars under a beautiful sun in one of the most enigmatic places in all of Europe. And this isn't serious stuff; this is about Bond playfully showing off the size of his ... engine. Technically, it's also the first time we see James Bond in the 1990s. The music makes that time-jump literal. It screams "wild '90s" to me. And lest we forget, when the night falls and Bond goes a little more into "spy mode", Serra brings a pretty Barryesque suite to the iconic casino scene. Right there and then he's telling us that we needn't worry, it's still Bond alright.

    But when the Tyger gets stolen and the Severnaya thriller begins, electronic music emphasises the "high-tech" nature of the story. Let's not forget that Arnold went there too, in DAD for example. That score is replete with artificial sound effects, weird remixes of orchestral pieces and techno beats, especially when there's some super-techy stuff on the screen. Serra simply did it first. And I, for one, like his almost surreal music.

    Let's zoom in on the final act of the film. Xenia kicks Bond's ass. I have no name for what Serra does there, but Bond really does get his ass kicked and the music underlines that perfectly. Yet then we see the dish coming out of the water, and Serra brings a slow, synthetic "march" that stresses the threatening and imposing nature of this installation, not entirely unlike the music Hamlish wrote to get us really frightened of the Liparus as a metallic monster in TSWLM. Once inside the dish installation, when all the dangerous computer stuff begins, dark and thunderous sounds take over, suggesting that this is serious business and Bond is facing off against one of the toughest adversaries ever. But when Alec goes after him like a madman, the music hits like lightening when a steel door slams shut and Bond finds himself a fleeing and open target for Alec's loud bullets. The GoldenEye re-entering our atmosphere is not a particularly speedy event and so neither does the music falsely suggest "ACTION!"; instead, it's a moderately rhythmic musical "pounding of the heart" that ends on the villain's failure. And when Alec sees that Bond has chosen the mission over the friend and, in fact, has a pretty effective and (on all accounts) delicious ally coming to his rescue, the soft synth that parallels the quiet sound of the wind high atop the antenna brings relief like a cold afternoon breeze on a hot summer day. The grand apotheosis comes with the explosion of the antenna and Bond's leap of victory onto the helicopter, a moment Serra effectively captures with a bit of heroic over-exposition, but nothing that lasts long enough to overstay its welcome. Lastly, some soft romantic tunes segue comfortably into TEOL, which brings one of my favourite Bond films to its close as end titles start rolling.

    Granted, a lot of GE's score relies on sounds and short cues rather than on whistle-along melodies and warm compositions. But somehow, that fits the first computer-era Bond, like DOS commandos being inserted cold and matter-of-factly over a flickering cursor--in stark contrast to when we wrote polite memos and consulted dusty books. The Cold War is over, the film says, and we know it is. But not just because of Brosnan. Many elements in the film make that clear, but few as effectively as Serra's score. While TND returned to the "private villains" of old, giving Arnold an opportunity to go brassy and symphonic once again, GE wasn't necessarily going for warmth and tongue-in-cheek fun. It's a thriller, a somewhat more serious film than most of the Bonds, a film that makes the gap between LTK and this new Bond pretty in-your-face. Would any of the previous Bonds have shown Bond mowing down countless Russian soldiers in cold blood the way he does in GE? Or make Ourumov's pursuit of Bond in the library such a tense scene? The only time this film gets playful is during the tank chase, and so I guess it was the right choice to deviate from Serra's composition for that specific scene alone. But that one slip-up of Serra's notwithstanding, I am a staunch defender of his work for GE. If most other Bond films are warm wood or beautiful marble, GE is strong but cold steel. I doubt any other score would have intensified that feeling the way Serra's score did.

    Excellent stuff @DarthDimi! Couldn't agree more!
  • AstonLotusAstonLotus
    Posts: 1,394
    If David Arnold had scored it,then it would have been glorious.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,559
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    If David Arnold had scored it,then it would have been glorious.

    I'm not so sure of that. The David Arnold of QOS perhaps, but the same David Arnold that was still youthful and "unhinged" and furthermore in bed with Emmerich? I doubt that he could have been of great service to GE.

    Perhaps. I don't know. :)
  • AstonLotusAstonLotus
    Posts: 1,394
    The music isnt just bad in GE.Its the placement.There is a romantic theme that is used in the casino where Bond plays cards with Onatopp.The theme itself is not bad but its compeletely inapproriate given that Onatopp is a villain and its not like its a huge plot twist when they show that she is in the next scene.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    I’m sure an Arnold score would have been more on the nose much like how TND was. In that case, HELL NO.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,559
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    The music isnt just bad in GE.Its the placement.There is a romantic theme that is used in the casino where Bond plays cards with Onatopp.The theme itself is not bad but its compeletely inapproriate given that Onatopp is a villain and its not like its a huge plot twist when they show that she is in the next scene.

    I'm not sure this is true. For starters, "romantic" is an interpretation I disagree with. It's just "classy" background music in heavy contrast to the car chase that we have just seen. There are ominous bits in that music, played quite obviously when Bond and Onatopp have just had their drinks. And I don't see why the music has to announce in broad strokes that we're dealing with a villain. When Bond meets Carver face-to-face for the first time, there's some feel-good lounge music playing in the background. And we know that Carver is the bad guy. Parties and casinos are a big thing in the Bonds. It's where important meetings and teaming-ups happen. The music is often just functional background music, the perpetuation of an establishing shot. In GE, we're seeing that Bond is now dressed up nicely, blending in with the rich and famous, in a place that makes one feel like royalty. So a classy bit of music merely underlines that. There's nothing more to it and the music is far from inappropriate. At Green Planet's fundraiser in QOS, we meet all kinds of villains in one place and the only music we get is some "ambient chillout" stuff, nothing that signals "evil people". What about the piano music in the casino scene of LTK? It's just a tradition of the Bond films in my opinion to simply switch to ambient music in casino scenes, rather than to a dramatic film score.
  • Junglist_1985Junglist_1985 Los Angeles
    edited June 2020 Posts: 1,006
    I think the “dated” aspect really comes into play here... Serra’s score isn’t all bad to be honest, but there are sounds in there that could ONLY be from the early 90s. I feel similarly about TSWLM.... if it had a Moonraker-caliber score not only would it be a better film, but it wouldn’t scream late 70s cheese as much.

    Most people seem to agree that 70’s films somehow just feel older than 60’s films, on average. Just my opinion of course, but I feel the changing scores have a lot to do with it.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited June 2020 Posts: 6,791
    I don't find 'dated' to be a problem really. If anything, I quite like that 'time capsule' feel older films have. It's part of their persona and it's what makes them charming.

    As for David Arnold, I love his work on TND and QOS but I still think Serra's music is an integral part of GE's unique atmosphere and I wouldn't want it any other way.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    I don't mind the GE score, it's just in places it's jarring and sticks out like a sore thumb

    GE and LTK are the only two films it would be interesting to hear re-scored.

    I don't mind their scores but i'm not a huge fan of them.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    I don't mind the GE score, it's just in places it's jarring and sticks out like a sore thumb

    GE and LTK are the only two films it would be interesting to hear re-scored.

    I don't mind their scores but i'm not a huge fan of them.

    I'd say the only Bond film that should have been re-scored was DR. NO. I wish Cubby had hired John Barry to do a re-score of that film during 60s Bondmania, for one of the many re-releases that DN had been given by UA. Oh well.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,980
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    I don't mind the GE score, it's just in places it's jarring and sticks out like a sore thumb

    GE and LTK are the only two films it would be interesting to hear re-scored.

    I don't mind their scores but i'm not a huge fan of them.

    I'd say the only Bond film that should have been re-scored was DR. NO. I wish Cubby had hired John Barry to do a re-score of that film during 60s Bondmania, for one of the many re-releases that DN had been given by UA. Oh well.

    Ah that would've been amazing, but of course throwing good money away!

    I agree though: Dr No is the only actually bad score in the lot of them.
  • jobojobo
    edited June 2020 Posts: 7,500
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    The music isnt just bad in GE.Its the placement.There is a romantic theme that is used in the casino where Bond plays cards with Onatopp.The theme itself is not bad but its compeletely inapproriate given that Onatopp is a villain and its not like its a huge plot twist when they show that she is in the next scene.

    I'm not sure this is true. For starters, "romantic" is an interpretation I disagree with. It's just "classy" background music in heavy contrast to the car chase that we have just seen. There are ominous bits in that music, played quite obviously when Bond and Onatopp have just had their drinks. And I don't see why the music has to announce in broad strokes that we're dealing with a villain. When Bond meets Carver face-to-face for the first time, there's some feel-good lounge music playing in the background. And we know that Carver is the bad guy. Parties and casinos are a big thing in the Bonds. It's where important meetings and teaming-ups happen. The music is often just functional background music, the perpetuation of an establishing shot. In GE, we're seeing that Bond is now dressed up nicely, blending in with the rich and famous, in a place that makes one feel like royalty. So a classy bit of music merely underlines that. There's nothing more to it and the music is far from inappropriate. At Green Planet's fundraiser in QOS, we meet all kinds of villains in one place and the only music we get is some "ambient chillout" stuff, nothing that signals "evil people". What about the piano music in the casino scene of LTK? It's just a tradition of the Bond films in my opinion to simply switch to ambient music in casino scenes, rather than to a dramatic film score.

    Was that particular scene Serra's work though? I read somewhere that while Serra was responsible for the techno music tracks, John Altman and David Arch provided most of the more traditional orchestral cues. Does anyone know more accurately?

    However I think the casino scene is another example where the score could be better. I certainly don't mind the music being "classy". In fact I think this music should have been a lot more classier. Bond entering a casino should ooze confidence, majesty and life. This music is however very dull and drags all the life out of the scene.



    It has a peculiar sentimental sound which feels very out of place. Given the musical material they had it would have been better leaving the scene silent.

    Now just for comparisons sake look at the music when Bond enters the casino in Thunderball. Now this is what I call classy!



    Not to mention this scene...

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    Serra works on orchestral tracks as well. He’s not just limited to synthesizers. If you ever listened to any of his other scores you can see he’s got a lot of variety to his work.

  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    I like Tina Turner's theme song and for me not to notice its absence in Serra's Score, says a lot about Serra's Score.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    I don't mind the GE score, it's just in places it's jarring and sticks out like a sore thumb

    GE and LTK are the only two films it would be interesting to hear re-scored.

    I don't mind their scores but i'm not a huge fan of them.

    I'd say the only Bond film that should have been re-scored was DR. NO. I wish Cubby had hired John Barry to do a re-score of that film during 60s Bondmania, for one of the many re-releases that DN had been given by UA. Oh well.

    I know it's a 50's type score but i kind of like DN's music. To hear a different score now would be jarring to the ears. Personally i wouldn't like any of the Bond scores re-scored, but it would be interesting just to hear new scores for GE or LTK IMO.

    The only permanent change i wish the producers had implemented is to omit the slide whistle in TMWTGG.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,559
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    I don't mind the GE score, it's just in places it's jarring and sticks out like a sore thumb

    GE and LTK are the only two films it would be interesting to hear re-scored.

    I don't mind their scores but i'm not a huge fan of them.

    I'd say the only Bond film that should have been re-scored was DR. NO. I wish Cubby had hired John Barry to do a re-score of that film during 60s Bondmania, for one of the many re-releases that DN had been given by UA. Oh well.

    I know it's a 50's type score but i kind of like DN's music. To hear a different score now would be jarring to the ears. Personally i wouldn't like any of the Bond scores re-scored, but it would be interesting just to hear new scores for GE or LTK IMO.

    The only permanent change i wish the producers had implemented is to omit the slide whistle in TMWTGG.

    The one big flaw in all of Barry's career.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    I don't mind the GE score, it's just in places it's jarring and sticks out like a sore thumb

    GE and LTK are the only two films it would be interesting to hear re-scored.

    I don't mind their scores but i'm not a huge fan of them.

    I'd say the only Bond film that should have been re-scored was DR. NO. I wish Cubby had hired John Barry to do a re-score of that film during 60s Bondmania, for one of the many re-releases that DN had been given by UA. Oh well.

    I know it's a 50's type score but i kind of like DN's music. To hear a different score now would be jarring to the ears. Personally i wouldn't like any of the Bond scores re-scored, but it would be interesting just to hear new scores for GE or LTK IMO.

    The only permanent change i wish the producers had implemented is to omit the slide whistle in TMWTGG.

    The one big flaw in all of Barry's career.

    Yes. And since Barry himself admitted it was a poor choice, the producers have carte blanche to omit it in future versions.

    Or does anyone actually like it...?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,559
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    I don't mind the GE score, it's just in places it's jarring and sticks out like a sore thumb

    GE and LTK are the only two films it would be interesting to hear re-scored.

    I don't mind their scores but i'm not a huge fan of them.

    I'd say the only Bond film that should have been re-scored was DR. NO. I wish Cubby had hired John Barry to do a re-score of that film during 60s Bondmania, for one of the many re-releases that DN had been given by UA. Oh well.

    I know it's a 50's type score but i kind of like DN's music. To hear a different score now would be jarring to the ears. Personally i wouldn't like any of the Bond scores re-scored, but it would be interesting just to hear new scores for GE or LTK IMO.

    The only permanent change i wish the producers had implemented is to omit the slide whistle in TMWTGG.

    The one big flaw in all of Barry's career.

    Yes. And since Barry himself admitted it was a poor choice, the producers have carte blanche to omit it in future versions.

    Or does anyone actually like it...?

    At least it's somewhat in the spirit of the film... :)

    So yeah, take that one out. I'm sure it wouldn't cause "Han shoots first" chaos. As for GE, leave that score intact. :)
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    That whistle ruined one of the most stylish stunts in film & Bond history, but then again it's a Roger Moore Bond film, Maybe Barry initially felt it suited Moore's Pacifist take on the role....would the whistle work in a Sean Connery Bond film?....Hardly.

    I think Barry always felt Moore's take on the role was lighter and comical, that's why Barry didn't use the Guitar riff for Moore's Bond themes. Of course, Barry didn't use the Guitar riff for Dalton, but he infused electronic sounds in Dalton's Bond theme to showcase a different Bond.
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,500
    That scene contains a continued selection of some of the daftest humor you would ever see based on J. W. Pepper and some on the borderline of racist depictions of local people. To be fair the slide whistle fits perfectly within the narrative.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,980
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    That whistle ruined one of the most stylish stunts in film & Bond history, but then again it's a Roger Moore Bond film, Maybe Barry initially felt it suited Moore's Pacifist take on the role....would the whistle work in a Sean Connery Bond film?....Hardly.

    I think Barry always felt Moore's take on the role was lighter and comical, that's why Barry didn't use the Guitar riff for Moore's Bond themes. Of course, Barry didn't use the Guitar riff for Dalton, but he infused electronic sounds in Dalton's Bond theme to showcase a different Bond.

    I think he'd just moved on from that style, I doubt there was any particular reason for it.

    After LALD I think I'm right in saying that a guitar only appears in gunbarrel sequences.. four more times?
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited June 2020 Posts: 4,247
    mtm wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    That whistle ruined one of the most stylish stunts in film & Bond history, but then again it's a Roger Moore Bond film, Maybe Barry initially felt it suited Moore's Pacifist take on the role....would the whistle work in a Sean Connery Bond film?....Hardly.

    I think Barry always felt Moore's take on the role was lighter and comical, that's why Barry didn't use the Guitar riff for Moore's Bond themes. Of course, Barry didn't use the Guitar riff for Dalton, but he infused electronic sounds in Dalton's Bond theme to showcase a different Bond.

    I think he'd just moved on from that style, I doubt there was any particular reason for it.

    After LALD I think I'm right in saying that a guitar only appears in gunbarrel sequences.. four more times?

    I think Once after LALD, that's Hamlisch's TSWLM...Barry never continued with the Guitar Riff, that Martin & Hamlisch used in their Scores and Gunbarrel....so that's why I think Barry might have felt the Guitar riff, would be too aggressive for Moore's Bond.

    Kamen was the one who brought it back in LTK's Gunbarrel Sequence, until Arnold resurrected it again in DAD....and QoS was the last time it was used in the Gunbarrel Sequence.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,980
    So Lazenby is the only Bond not to get a twangy guitar gunbarrel! :)
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