What if Goldeneye had an amazing score?

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  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited June 2020 Posts: 4,247
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Not to mention Le Grand Blue, The 5th Element and Léon. It's perhaps a little tragic that many of the scores he wrote for Besson are more enigmatic and powerful than his GE score. In fact, much like Barry's The Specialist had, in places, a lot of Bond potential, so had Serra's Léon.

    Yeah, true....I think as Awesome as his GE score is, it would have been more Unique like his other scores. But one has the feeling, Serra was treading softly with Bond, so he doesn't offend EON too much. He obviously had more freedom with his other scores, that's why they truly had that enigmatic and ethereal feel.

    Yeah, and Barry's 'The Specialist' is a masterful unofficial Bond score. In Barry's case, I think he was simply trying to outdo himself as usual....Love that score, together with Serra's 'Léon' as well.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,561
    GE isn't the only film in this awkward position, IMO. Kamen's LTK is often met with unfavourable reviews, as is Martin's LALD, Hamlish's TSWLM and Conti's FYEO. Pretty much any pre-Arnold Bond score that wasn't done by Barry is often targeted for demolition. Granted, it's tough to outshine or even match Barry. I, too, believe that DN, LALD, TSWLM and FYEO would probably have sounded better with a Barry score.

    But LTK is where I draw the line. That film is going for something else, evidently. It's trying to keep up with the Die Hard, Lethal Weapon and Miami Vice infusions into the action film genre. LTK needed Kamen's less refined, more brutal work. Clearly, Barry would have scored the film if throat surgery hadn't blocked his schedule, but no matter how much I love Barry's music, I doubt that he could have found the same rawness the film went for.

    Same thing with GE. It is for sure an inferior score compared to anything that Barry could have written in his sleep, but it's an effective score that matches the "tunes" of the film.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    GE isn't the only film in this awkward position, IMO. Kamen's LTK is often met with unfavourable reviews, as is Martin's LALD, Hamlish's TSWLM and Conti's FYEO. Pretty much any pre-Arnold Bond score that wasn't done by Barry is often targeted for demolition. Granted, it's tough to outshine or even match Barry. I, too, believe that DN, LALD, TSWLM and FYEO would probably have sounded better with a Barry score.

    But LTK is where I draw the line. That film is going for something else, evidently. It's trying to keep up with the Die Hard, Lethal Weapon and Miami Vice infusions into the action film genre. LTK needed Kamen's less refined, more brutal work. Clearly, Barry would have scored the film if throat surgery hadn't blocked his schedule, but no matter how much I love Barry's music, I doubt that he could have found the same rawness the film went for.

    Same thing with GE. It is for sure an inferior score compared to anything that Barry could have written in his sleep, but it's an effective score that matches the "tunes" of the film.

    Yeah, Barry is obviously Bond. But I really like Martin's LALD & Hamlisch's TSWLM as well. I can't really say the same about Conti's FYEO & Kamen's LTK, Coz I discovered I usually have a more seamless listen with Martin, Hamlisch & Serra. But with Conti & Kamen, I have to select few tracks to listen to....not the entire Score though.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    I’ve probably listened to Conti and Kamen’s Bond scores more often than Martin and Hamlish’s, to be honest. Martin’s especially doesn’t do anything for me. It sounds like a score made for a TV show in the early 70s than a big film.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,983
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Not to mention Le Grand Blue, The 5th Element and Léon. It's perhaps a little tragic that many of the scores he wrote for Besson are more enigmatic and powerful than his GE score. In fact, much like Barry's The Specialist had, in places, a lot of Bond potential, so had Serra's Léon.

    I’m sure I remember a bit towards the end of Léon which just is exactly the same as Experience of Love (the GE end titles song), just without the vocal. Is that right? I haven’t seen it in years!
    :)
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,791
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Not to mention Le Grand Blue, The 5th Element and Léon. It's perhaps a little tragic that many of the scores he wrote for Besson are more enigmatic and powerful than his GE score. In fact, much like Barry's The Specialist had, in places, a lot of Bond potential, so had Serra's Léon.

    I’m sure I remember a bit towards the end of Léon which just is exactly the same as Experience of Love (the GE end titles song), just without the vocal. Is that right? I haven’t seen it in years!
    :)

    Here it is:


    I can only speak for myself of course, but I really like that end title song.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,561
    So do I. Also because it's followed by that amazing Sting song.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,037
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    So do I. Also because it's followed by that amazing Sting song.

    An utterly fantastic way to end the film.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,561
    Incidentally, I don't mind "The Experience Of Love" the way many seem to do. In the short tradition of ending the Bonds with a "ballad" (If There Was A Man, If You Asked Me To), it doesn't suck. Granted, the vocals could have been better, but the composition itself has been able to withstand my critical voice for a quarter of a decade now. ;-) Perhaps the similarities it bears to the Léon score make it easy for me.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,037
    "The Experience Of Love" is not that bad of a tune, but I would have preferred a more upbeat song to end the film, personally.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited June 2020 Posts: 6,791
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Incidentally, I don't mind "The Experience Of Love" the way many seem to do. In the short tradition of ending the Bonds with a "ballad" (If There Was A Man, If You Asked Me To), it doesn't suck. Granted, the vocals could have been better, but the composition itself has been able to withstand my critical voice for a quarter of a decade now. ;-) Perhaps the similarities it bears to the Léon score make it easy for me.

    Well my dear @DarthDimi, I'd go even further, the end title songs from TLD, LTK and GE are all among my favourite song of the franchise. So that includes TEOL, which I absolutely love.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited June 2020 Posts: 4,247
    I love 'The Experience Of Love'.....an instrumental version of it would have also worked in the film for Bond & Natalya's Love scenes, But thankfully, 'For Ever, James' keeps showing up in such Scenes and it's such an awesome Bond Love Theme.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    I’m happy with the Serra score, but I always do wonder how Barry is would have done the return of Bond in 1995. Taking contemporary recordings of his from the mid-90s with these clips is the closest we can ever approximate.







  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,983
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Not to mention Le Grand Blue, The 5th Element and Léon. It's perhaps a little tragic that many of the scores he wrote for Besson are more enigmatic and powerful than his GE score. In fact, much like Barry's The Specialist had, in places, a lot of Bond potential, so had Serra's Léon.

    I’m sure I remember a bit towards the end of Léon which just is exactly the same as Experience of Love (the GE end titles song), just without the vocal. Is that right? I haven’t seen it in years!
    :)

    Here it is:


    I can only speak for myself of course, but I really like that end title song.

    Yes! Thank you; that’s the one! Haha- Eric was a bit naughty there!

    I must admit I kind of like that song too. The tune kind of sticks in the head.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,561
    Well, Arnold did lift several cues from his ID4 score for TND too. I think it's just normal for these guys to do so. :)
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,331
    Most composers do it. Bill Conti did the theme song for this show that sounds awfully similar to a cue from FYEO. ;)
  • Posts: 4,025
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Not to mention Le Grand Blue, The 5th Element and Léon. It's perhaps a little tragic that many of the scores he wrote for Besson are more enigmatic and powerful than his GE score. In fact, much like Barry's The Specialist had, in places, a lot of Bond potential, so had Serra's Léon.

    I’m sure I remember a bit towards the end of Léon which just is exactly the same as Experience of Love (the GE end titles song), just without the vocal. Is that right? I haven’t seen it in years!
    :)

    Here it is:


    I can only speak for myself of course, but I really like that end title song.

    Adding that to my Goldeneye playlist. Did he use that anywhere else in Leon?
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,331
    @vzok, I'm afraid not. That's the only time it's used.
  • Posts: 4,025
    Murdock wrote: »
    @vzok, I'm afraid not. That's the only time it's used.

    Thanks anyway
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2020 Posts: 14,983
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Well, Arnold did lift several cues from his ID4 score for TND too. I think it's just normal for these guys to do so. :)

    Did he? Which are you thinking of?
    Murdock wrote: »
    Most composers do it. Bill Conti did the theme song for this show that sounds awfully similar to a cue from FYEO. ;)

    It’s a very similar tune to Runaway- it almost sounds like one of those non-copyright infringing legally dissimilar ripoffs you get of stuff like the Bond theme(!) (and I was listening to the score from Rocky 2 the other day I think and there’s that same phrase from the end of Runaway that he uses as a bridge in that one) but it’s not quite exactly the same, unlike what Serra did there! :)
    Thanks for that though- never heard that before, very cool.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,037
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Well, Arnold did lift several cues from his ID4 score for TND too. I think it's just normal for these guys to do so. :)

    A motif from Godzilla pops up in TWINE, as well!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,983
    i don’t remember Godzilla very well. But I did spot a motif from either TWINE or QOS (I can’t remember which now) pops up in Good Omens: I didn’t realise it was Arnold until then!
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited June 2020 Posts: 23,561
    mtm wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Well, Arnold did lift several cues from his ID4 score for TND too. I think it's just normal for these guys to do so. :)

    Did he? Which are you thinking of?

    Off the top of my head: when the first lady dies <=> Bond and Paris in the Hamburg hotel room.

    Another example of Arnold re-using material: Bond and Elektra goes skiing <=> Bond and Jinx having fun with diamonds after the climax of DAD.

    It's not a complaint, mind. Merely an observation. ;-)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2020 Posts: 14,983
    I’ll have to look up the ID4 one, but I’d say the two Bond tracks there are undeniably similar and do have that same resolving section, but aren’t quite the same tune. I think he likes to reuse a motif or two across his stuff: his Brosnans had a sort of chase theme based on a repeated section of the Bond theme he used between a few films- you can hear it as the bike is driving across the rooftops through the washing lines in TND and then again in the docks part of the TWINE boat chase (I forget if it’s in DAD too). Plus of course we know he took a couple of bits just straight from Barry for White Knight.
    Did Barry get a credit on TND for those, out of interest? If the LTK theme had to acknowledge him for the opening notes you’d have thought TND would have to for the phrases from OHMSS and FRWL.
  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    Posts: 1,081
    I’m happy with the Serra score, but I always do wonder how Barry is would have done the return of Bond in 1995. Taking contemporary recordings of his from the mid-90s with these clips is the closest we can ever approximate.








    The Goldeneye GB sequence is one of my favourite and that's predominantly due to Serra's take on the Bond theme.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,983
    Yeah that gunbarrel doesn't make it seem like we missed out on much, but the pen scene gives an effective idea, and I'd certainly never say that any Barry score wouldn't have been lovely.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,791
    Every Barry score is excellent, the man even made Raise the Titanic! half watchable.

    Still though, we have 11 great Barry Bond scores and only 1 Serra score. I'd hate to miss out on that sole Serra score.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,561
    True! I have yet to hear a Barry score that doesn't bring the magic. Whatever my thoughts on TMWTGG, the score for that film is simple but effective and bloody good. The thought that Barry put it all together in, what, 3 weeks or so?, makes it all the more fantastic. Barry's scores also elevate weaker or stranger Bond films to a higher level. Where would the likes of DAF or MR be without the Barry magic? And Kevin Costner got lucky with Dances With Wolves. It's a great film as-is, but Barry's score makes it perfect.

    As for GE, I'm sure a Barry score would have made the film "lovelier" but it would also have made the film different. And that's something I'm not sure I'd want. Example: Onatopp's little car chase game with Bond. Okay, that's some weird 'new age' funky stuff--almost undefinable. But here are these two larger-than-life characters in their supercars under a beautiful sun in one of the most enigmatic places in all of Europe. And this isn't serious stuff; this is about Bond playfully showing off the size of his ... engine. Technically, it's also the first time we see James Bond in the 1990s. The music makes that time-jump literal. It screams "wild '90s" to me. And lest we forget, when the night falls and Bond goes a little more into "spy mode", Serra brings a pretty Barryesque suite to the iconic casino scene. Right there and then he's telling us that we needn't worry, it's still Bond alright.

    But when the Tyger gets stolen and the Severnaya thriller begins, electronic music emphasises the "high-tech" nature of the story. Let's not forget that Arnold went there too, in DAD for example. That score is replete with artificial sound effects, weird remixes of orchestral pieces and techno beats, especially when there's some super-techy stuff on the screen. Serra simply did it first. And I, for one, like his almost surreal music.

    Let's zoom in on the final act of the film. Xenia kicks Bond's ass. I have no name for what Serra does there, but Bond really does get his ass kicked and the music underlines that perfectly. Yet then we see the dish coming out of the water, and Serra brings a slow, synthetic "march" that stresses the threatening and imposing nature of this installation, not entirely unlike the music Hamlish wrote to get us really frightened of the Liparus as a metallic monster in TSWLM. Once inside the dish installation, when all the dangerous computer stuff begins, dark and thunderous sounds take over, suggesting that this is serious business and Bond is facing off against one of the toughest adversaries ever. But when Alec goes after him like a madman, the music hits like lightening when a steel door slams shut and Bond finds himself a fleeing and open target for Alec's loud bullets. The GoldenEye re-entering our atmosphere is not a particularly speedy event and so neither does the music falsely suggest "ACTION!"; instead, it's a moderately rhythmic musical "pounding of the heart" that ends on the villain's failure. And when Alec sees that Bond has chosen the mission over the friend and, in fact, has a pretty effective and (on all accounts) delicious ally coming to his rescue, the soft synth that parallels the quiet sound of the wind high atop the antenna brings relief like a cold afternoon breeze on a hot summer day. The grand apotheosis comes with the explosion of the antenna and Bond's leap of victory onto the helicopter, a moment Serra effectively captures with a bit of heroic over-exposition, but nothing that lasts long enough to overstay its welcome. Lastly, some soft romantic tunes segue comfortably into TEOL, which brings one of my favourite Bond films to its close as end titles start rolling.

    Granted, a lot of GE's score relies on sounds and short cues rather than on whistle-along melodies and warm compositions. But somehow, that fits the first computer-era Bond, like DOS commandos being inserted cold and matter-of-factly over a flickering cursor--in stark contrast to when we wrote polite memos and consulted dusty books. The Cold War is over, the film says, and we know it is. But not just because of Brosnan. Many elements in the film make that clear, but few as effectively as Serra's score. While TND returned to the "private villains" of old, giving Arnold an opportunity to go brassy and symphonic once again, GE wasn't necessarily going for warmth and tongue-in-cheek fun. It's a thriller, a somewhat more serious film than most of the Bonds, a film that makes the gap between LTK and this new Bond pretty in-your-face. Would any of the previous Bonds have shown Bond mowing down countless Russian soldiers in cold blood the way he does in GE? Or make Ourumov's pursuit of Bond in the library such a tense scene? The only time this film gets playful is during the tank chase, and so I guess it was the right choice to deviate from Serra's composition for that specific scene alone. But that one slip-up of Serra's notwithstanding, I am a staunch defender of his work for GE. If most other Bond films are warm wood or beautiful marble, GE is strong but cold steel. I doubt any other score would have intensified that feeling the way Serra's score did.
  • Posts: 7,500
    The best part of it all is that Eric Serra got the gig was because John Barry actually recommended him to EON based on his score for LEON: THE PROFESSIONAL.

    Barry has also stated in an interview that he was very disappointed with the result and had expected something else...
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited June 2020 Posts: 8,025
    Interestingly, David Arnold LOVED Serra’s score.
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