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NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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Comments

  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,979
    Setting aside the trolling above...

    It wasn't color-blind casting. They really wanted Lupita Nyong'o, and that makes sense considering that we first meet her as an agent undercover in Jamaica.

    https://deadline.com/2019/02/lupita-nyongo-bond-girl-shortlist-rami-malek-villain-james-bond-25-daniel-craig-1202567458/

    I wish the Jamaica sequences were a lot longer. I wanted Bond to spend more time there.

    Where I think they failed the Nomi character was in the third act, when they had her leave the field of battle to save Madeleine. Surely Madeleine could have piloted that dinghy herself.

    I think it would have been much more in character to have Nomi tell Bond, "Commander, you're blinded by this family situation. You need to send them to safety and you and I need to finish the mission."

    Whether that means Nomi would die too, I don't know, but that would be a hero's ending for her too.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,478
    @echo, they could've taken that route and had Nomi set to escape once Bond realizes the doors are shutting again, where he forces her to flee to safety while he finishes the mission. I can't say I'm a fan of her rescuing Bond's family and leaving him to finish the job; it should've been reversed.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited July 2022 Posts: 3,391
    echo wrote: »
    Setting aside the trolling above...

    It wasn't color-blind casting. They really wanted Lupita Nyong'o, and that makes sense considering that we first meet her as an agent undercover in Jamaica.

    https://deadline.com/2019/02/lupita-nyongo-bond-girl-shortlist-rami-malek-villain-james-bond-25-daniel-craig-1202567458/

    I wish the Jamaica sequences were a lot longer. I wanted Bond to spend more time there.

    Where I think they failed the Nomi character was in the third act, when they had her leave the field of battle to save Madeleine. Surely Madeleine could have piloted that dinghy herself.

    I think it would have been much more in character to have Nomi tell Bond, "Commander, you're blinded by this family situation. You need to send them to safety and you and I need to finish the mission."

    Whether that means Nomi would die too, I don't know, but that would be a hero's ending for her too.

    I prefer if she goes with Bond in that battle, Bond was shot by Safin, but Safin was immediately killed by Nomi.
    Then Nomi would try to save Bond and escape from the lair, then when they reached Madeleine and Mathilde on that far island, that's when Bond gave his farewell words, weakening and running out of blood, then Bond dies in Madeleine's arms, caressing him, and it's Madeleine who would tell to Mathilde that " It's alright now, he's having a rest" (a great OHMSS callback), then Mathilde would hug the corpse of her father, that would be dramatic and as a great wish fulfilment for Craig.

    And it's Nomi who would tell M through that radio that "He's dead", just like how Bond uttered that "The Bitch Is Dead" line at the end of CR, now it's Nomi who uttered that words for him.

    I liked how it resembles that scene in CR, where it's Bond, talking to M, telling that "The Bitch is dead", to NTTD where it's Nomi, talking to M that Bond's dead.

    Same scenes from the first and last film of Craig's Bond.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,962
    echo wrote: »
    Setting aside the trolling above...

    It wasn't color-blind casting. They really wanted Lupita Nyong'o, and that makes sense considering that we first meet her as an agent undercover in Jamaica.

    Unnecessary, 007HallY said it wasn't colourblind; no-one said it was.
  • 007HallY007HallY
    Posts: 2,906
    mtm wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Setting aside the trolling above...

    It wasn't color-blind casting. They really wanted Lupita Nyong'o, and that makes sense considering that we first meet her as an agent undercover in Jamaica.

    Unnecessary, 007HallY said it wasn't colourblind; no-one said it was.

    I'm not sure if echo was referring to my post or not to be fair... if he was he didn't read it properly. But nonetheless...
    echo wrote: »

    I think it would have been much more in character to have Nomi tell Bond, "Commander, you're blinded by this family situation. You need to send them to safety and you and I need to finish the mission."

    Whether that means Nomi would die too, I don't know, but that would be a hero's ending for her too.

    That would have been quite fitting for her character. They could even have reshaped the scene to have had Bond in some way using the shutters to lock out Nomi/protect from the missiles, thus not only protecting Madeline but also her.

    Then again I suppose logically Nomi was needed to get the boat with Madeline/Mathilde to safety, and they wanted to concentrate on Bond for the final portion of the film... anyway, like I said, she's slightly underwritten.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    Lupita would’ve made a far better Nomi. Lynch is arguably the only casting error of this era so far.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited July 2022 Posts: 8,034
    I thought Lynch was fine. She was just hamstrung with an idea for a character rather than a fully-formed character that actually belonged in the story.

    I don't think Lupita would have made "Do you know what time it is?" any better than Lynch did, for example. A pretty woeful line by all accounts.
  • SomethingThatAteHimSomethingThatAteHim
    Posts: 532
    Yeah I certainly blame the script and not the actor. The movie ultimately tried to juggle too many things at once — too many characters, too many plot threads, too many tones — so some of them were bound to fall by the wayside.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited July 2022 Posts: 4,247
    Another thing is, I think because EON's major concern and was more of how to make NTTD better than SP, than making NTTD a great Bond film of its own as well, it affected the quality of NTTD. I think once they felt NTTD was better than SP, any other thing was fine. Like the tonal shifts and all that. Plus, I'm beginning to think that even if SP comes with its own problems, NTTD isn't entirely better than it....maybe here and there, but not entirely.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    I thought Lashana was great and actually made something out of a "shock factor" character that was really only intended to surprise us that Bond had been replaced by a woman.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,962
    I think Lynch is fine: I don't buy her as particularly tough, but I do think she makes the character cool in a very fresh way, and I'd have liked Nomi to have more screen time, in this or another film, to show that off.
  • SomethingThatAteHimSomethingThatAteHim
    Posts: 532
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    Another thing is, I think because EON's major concern and was more of how to make NTTD better than SP, than making NTTD a great Bond film of its own as well, it affected the quality of NTTD. I think once they felt NTTD was better than SP, any other thing was fine. Like the tonal shifts and all that. Plus, I'm beginning to think that even if SP comes with its own problems, NTTD isn't entirely better than it....maybe here and there, but not entirely.

    To be fair in the run up to the film’s release I was basically telling myself “as long as it’s better than Spectre I’ll be happy”, and I do think it’s a better film than Spectre… but not by as much as I was hoping and starting to believe it was.

    The more distance I get from it the happier I’ll be with it, though. In a few years and a few rewatches it’ll just be another Bond film to me.
  • CrabKeyCrabKey
    edited July 2022 Posts: 1,518
    When I saw Dr. No, I was fascinated by this new film character, James Bond. I wanted to see more and shortly after FRWL arrived bigger and better. What could top that? GF! And then TB. Wow! Then came the not as exciting YOLT. For the first time a Bond film let me down. Since Connery there have been a few films I like: OHMSS, LALD, TLD, LTK, and CR. I hoped CR would be followed by films that would be bigger and better. Instead the series seemed to mirror Bond's character: aging, out of shape, nearing retirement. As one of the original Bond film goers, I don't need a reminder of my age. Thus we end the Craig with "Time to Die." I don't completely dislike this film. I'm just not enthusiastic about it. It simply isn't the film I wanted as a Swan Song. It doesn't improve with subsequent viewings. If anything, subsequent viewings remind me how much I like those first four Bond films. As another poster commented, NTTD seems less about Bond and more about DC. Knowing Bond will die continually makes us aware this is an actor who wanted to make sure he was through with the series. Even Connery had the sense not to kill the character. Moving forward I would like to see the series attempt to recapture what it used to be. No more dinosaur comments or put downs intended to put Bond in place. Today's Bond ain't your granddaddy's Bond and that's too bad.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,391
    True, I have No problem with Lynch either or even the Nomi character, I really liked her banter with Bond, she's a fun character, she's likeable to me despite of her attitude, but I think that attitude makes her a bit fun? She's just cool and lighthearted at some point, I just wished they gave her a lot more screen time and involvement into the action.

    To be honest, I have more problems with Madeleine Swann than Nomi, and yes, that involves both the script and actress herself.

    Madeleine was the least likeable in that film for me, depressing, dull, and boring character, nothing to like about.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson Moderator
    Posts: 2,161
    CrabKey wrote: »
    When I saw Dr. No, I was fascinated by this new film character, James Bond. I wanted to see more and shortly after FRWL arrived bigger and better. What could top that? GF! And then TB. Wow! Then came the not as exciting YOLT. For the first time a Bond film let me down. Since Connery there have been a few films I like: OHMSS, LALD, TLD, LTK, and CR. I hoped CR would be followed by films that would be bigger and better. Instead the series seemed to mirror Bond's character: aging, out of shape, nearing retirement. As one of the original Bond film goers, I don't need a reminder of my age. Thus we end the Craig with "Time to Die." I don't completely dislike this film. I'm just not enthusiastic about it. It simply isn't the film I wanted as a Swan Song. It doesn't improve with subsequent viewings. If anything, subsequent viewings remind me how much I like those first four Bond films. As another poster commented, NTTD seems less about Bond and more about DC. Knowing Bond will die continually makes us aware this is an actor who wanted to make sure he was through with the series. Even Connery had the sense not to kill the character. Moving forward I would like to see the series attempt to recapture what it used to be. No more dinosaur comments or put downs intended to put Bond in place. Today's Bond ain't your granddaddy's Bond and that's too bad.

    Nice take.
  • SomethingThatAteHimSomethingThatAteHim
    Posts: 532
    Finally revisited the movie and unfortunately I feel about the same about it: pretty much lukewarm. I liked the second half a little more this time, but I also was less thrilled by the first half. There are some great moments scattered throughout and despite its length it surprisingly never really drags, but the movie is so uneven and, crucially, I just wasn’t terribly moved by the melodrama on which most of this movie hangs. I appreciate the big swing they took with this movie, and this was the one to do it on if they had to, but it was a bit of a miss for me. Not bad, but not particularly good either, overstuffed and undercooked. While I’m always open to being pleasantly surprised, like many of you I hope the next Bond is a bit more “business as usual”.
  • CrabKeyCrabKey
    Posts: 1,518
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Moving forward I would like to see the series attempt to recapture what it used to be.

    With Star Trek, Strange New Worlds we have a series that finally has the feel of the original. It can be done. Hopefully Bond 26 can capture the qualities of those early Bond films.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    SomethingThatAteHim wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    Another thing is, I think because EON's major concern and was more of how to make NTTD better than SP, than making NTTD a great Bond film of its own as well, it affected the quality of NTTD. I think once they felt NTTD was better than SP, any other thing was fine. Like the tonal shifts and all that. Plus, I'm beginning to think that even if SP comes with its own problems, NTTD isn't entirely better than it....maybe here and there, but not entirely.

    To be fair in the run up to the film’s release I was basically telling myself “as long as it’s better than Spectre I’ll be happy”, and I do think it’s a better film than Spectre… but not by as much as I was hoping and starting to believe it was.

    The more distance I get from it the happier I’ll be with it, though. In a few years and a few rewatches it’ll just be another Bond film to me.

    Yeah, me too. I thought it was going to be so much better. I think what NTTD has shown is, directing a Bond film is not for every director, even if a director can successfully direct other projects. SP has its problems, but like CR, QoS & SF before it, its tone is even and balanced. I don't love NTTD, I don't hate it. I'm not just crazy about it like other Bond films.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,962
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    SomethingThatAteHim wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    Another thing is, I think because EON's major concern and was more of how to make NTTD better than SP, than making NTTD a great Bond film of its own as well, it affected the quality of NTTD. I think once they felt NTTD was better than SP, any other thing was fine. Like the tonal shifts and all that. Plus, I'm beginning to think that even if SP comes with its own problems, NTTD isn't entirely better than it....maybe here and there, but not entirely.

    To be fair in the run up to the film’s release I was basically telling myself “as long as it’s better than Spectre I’ll be happy”, and I do think it’s a better film than Spectre… but not by as much as I was hoping and starting to believe it was.

    The more distance I get from it the happier I’ll be with it, though. In a few years and a few rewatches it’ll just be another Bond film to me.

    Yeah, me too. I thought it was going to be so much better. I think what NTTD has shown is, directing a Bond film is not for every director, even if a director can successfully direct other projects. SP has its problems, but like CR, QoS & SF before it, its tone is even and balanced. I don't love NTTD, I don't hate it. I'm not just crazy about it like other Bond films.

    Yep, agreed: I lay my antipathy with the film at the director's feet.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    I've watched the film 7 times and it hasn't degraded my enjoyment of it at all. Yes it has many flaws and is far from even touching CR in terms of all round quality. But none of that deters my enjoyment of it like the way Spectre's problems make the film such a chore to sit through.

    What still amazes me is the pace of NTTD. It still moves really fast and certainly doesn't feel like the longest Bond film.

    So I'm pretty happy I can look past a lot of the flaws and still find Craig’s last hugely enjoyable, even after multiple viewings.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited July 2022 Posts: 1,691
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    I thought Lynch was fine. She was just hamstrung with an idea for a character rather than a fully-formed character that actually belonged in the story.

    I quite liked Lynch. She reminded me of Emma Peel somehow the way she spoke and moved. But it does seem like they had a solid idea for "Nomi in the trailer" and not so much for "Nomi in the movie".

  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    ProfJoeButcher wrote: »
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    I thought Lynch was fine. She was just hamstrung with an idea for a character rather than a fully-formed character that actually belonged in the story.

    I quite liked Lynch. She reminded me of Emma Peel somehow the way she spoke and moved. But it does seem like they had a solid idea for "Nomi in the trailer" and not so much for "Nomi in the movie".

    The trailer was very misleading regarding the Nomi character. She also had some dialogue that didn't make it into the film...
  • ColonelAdamskiColonelAdamski UK
    Posts: 1,005
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Even Connery had the sense not to kill the character.

    "Cubby, I've got a shuper idea!"
    "What's that, Sean?"
    "Well in the next film, we'll kill James Bond off"
    "We can't do that, we want this series to carry on as long as we can"
    "That's okay, it'll be my last one, just cast another actor for the next one"
    "To play who?"
    "James Bond"
    "But he'll be dead!"
    "No, it'll be a new character arc"
    "What the hell's that?"
    "It's where one timeline stops and another starts"
    "Timeline? what are you on about?"
    "It'll be a reboot"
    "You want new boots?"
    "Nooo! It's a thing. You kill him, but he carries on"
    "So he doesn't die?"
    "No, one James Bond dies, then the next one starts up again"
    "Ah, the codename theory. I get it now"
    "No, it's the same character, but in a different universe"
    "But these films aren't sci-fi Sean. Have you been on the Jamesons?"
    "Och, you have no vision Cubby. It's all about taking chances and subverting the character".
    "It sounds daft"
    "But I want to have a death scene, all good actors want a death scene, I WANT HIM TO DIE!!!"
    "Sorry Sean, no actor is bigger than James Bond. We'll go for the flaming kebabs and bomb in a cake idea. Thanks for stopping by, and your new toupee's on the hat rack, you can grab it on the way out".
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited July 2022 Posts: 3,391
    ColonelAdamski wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Even Connery had the sense not to kill the character.

    "Cubby, I've got a shuper idea!"
    "What's that, Sean?"
    "Well in the next film, we'll kill James Bond off"
    "We can't do that, we want this series to carry on as long as we can"
    "That's okay, it'll be my last one, just cast another actor for the next one"
    "To play who?"
    "James Bond"
    "But he'll be dead!"
    "No, it'll be a new character arc"
    "What the hell's that?"
    "It's where one timeline stops and another starts"
    "Timeline? what are you on about?"
    "It'll be a reboot"
    "You want new boots?"
    "Nooo! It's a thing. You kill him, but he carries on"
    "So he doesn't die?"
    "No, one James Bond dies, then the next one starts up again"
    "Ah, the codename theory. I get it now"
    "No, it's the same character, but in a different universe"
    "But these films aren't sci-fi Sean. Have you been on the Jamesons?"
    "Och, you have no vision Cubby. It's all about taking chances and subverting the character".
    "It sounds daft"
    "But I want to have a death scene, all good actors want a death scene, I WANT HIM TO DIE!!!"
    "Sorry Sean, no actor is bigger than James Bond. We'll go for the flaming kebabs and bomb in a cake idea. Thanks for stopping by, and your new toupee's on the hat rack, you can grab it on the way out".

    :)) =))
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited July 2022 Posts: 4,247
    Yeah, sure @mtm Since he was happy and proud of the final product. To see the final product, with all the hype that came with Fukunaga, made it all the more disappointing.
  • jetsetwillyjetsetwilly
    Posts: 3,279
    CrabKey wrote: »
    When I saw Dr. No, I was fascinated by this new film character, James Bond. I wanted to see more and shortly after FRWL arrived bigger and better. What could top that? GF! And then TB. Wow! Then came the not as exciting YOLT. For the first time a Bond film let me down. Since Connery there have been a few films I like: OHMSS, LALD, TLD, LTK, and CR. I hoped CR would be followed by films that would be bigger and better. Instead the series seemed to mirror Bond's character: aging, out of shape, nearing retirement. As one of the original Bond film goers, I don't need a reminder of my age. Thus we end the Craig with "Time to Die." I don't completely dislike this film. I'm just not enthusiastic about it. It simply isn't the film I wanted as a Swan Song. It doesn't improve with subsequent viewings. If anything, subsequent viewings remind me how much I like those first four Bond films. As another poster commented, NTTD seems less about Bond and more about DC. Knowing Bond will die continually makes us aware this is an actor who wanted to make sure he was through with the series. Even Connery had the sense not to kill the character. Moving forward I would like to see the series attempt to recapture what it used to be. No more dinosaur comments or put downs intended to put Bond in place. Today's Bond ain't your granddaddy's Bond and that's too bad.

    Nice post, and pretty much reflects how I see the Bond films too. LTK and CR are the last 2 films I've really loved, and they have spanned over 30 years now between the two.

    In between there are some films that I tolerate (MR, OP, GE, QoS, SF) and some that I quite like (DAF, TMWTGG, FYEO) but for an outright instant classic, I'd have to go as far back as OHMSS, then after that LTK, then CR. 3 films that are stone wall bona fide classics in a span of 50 odd years ain't great.
  • jetsetwillyjetsetwilly
    Posts: 3,279
    ColonelAdamski wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Even Connery had the sense not to kill the character.

    "Cubby, I've got a shuper idea!"
    "What's that, Sean?"
    "Well in the next film, we'll kill James Bond off"
    "We can't do that, we want this series to carry on as long as we can"
    "That's okay, it'll be my last one, just cast another actor for the next one"
    "To play who?"
    "James Bond"
    "But he'll be dead!"
    "No, it'll be a new character arc"
    "What the hell's that?"
    "It's where one timeline stops and another starts"
    "Timeline? what are you on about?"
    "It'll be a reboot"
    "You want new boots?"
    "Nooo! It's a thing. You kill him, but he carries on"
    "So he doesn't die?"
    "No, one James Bond dies, then the next one starts up again"
    "Ah, the codename theory. I get it now"
    "No, it's the same character, but in a different universe"
    "But these films aren't sci-fi Sean. Have you been on the Jamesons?"
    "Och, you have no vision Cubby. It's all about taking chances and subverting the character".
    "It sounds daft"
    "But I want to have a death scene, all good actors want a death scene, I WANT HIM TO DIE!!!"
    "Sorry Sean, no actor is bigger than James Bond. We'll go for the flaming kebabs and bomb in a cake idea. Thanks for stopping by, and your new toupee's on the hat rack, you can grab it on the way out".

    Haha. Very nice! Well done. =D>
  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    Posts: 554
    ColonelAdamski wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Even Connery had the sense not to kill the character.

    "Cubby, I've got a shuper idea!"
    "What's that, Sean?"
    "Well in the next film, we'll kill James Bond off"
    "We can't do that, we want this series to carry on as long as we can"
    "That's okay, it'll be my last one, just cast another actor for the next one"
    "To play who?"
    "James Bond"
    "But he'll be dead!"
    "No, it'll be a new character arc"
    "What the hell's that?"
    "It's where one timeline stops and another starts"
    "Timeline? what are you on about?"
    "It'll be a reboot"
    "You want new boots?"
    "Nooo! It's a thing. You kill him, but he carries on"
    "So he doesn't die?"
    "No, one James Bond dies, then the next one starts up again"
    "Ah, the codename theory. I get it now"
    "No, it's the same character, but in a different universe"
    "But these films aren't sci-fi Sean. Have you been on the Jamesons?"
    "Och, you have no vision Cubby. It's all about taking chances and subverting the character".
    "It sounds daft"
    "But I want to have a death scene, all good actors want a death scene, I WANT HIM TO DIE!!!"
    "Sorry Sean, no actor is bigger than James Bond. We'll go for the flaming kebabs and bomb in a cake idea. Thanks for stopping by, and your new toupee's on the hat rack, you can grab it on the way out".
    :))
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    ColonelAdamski wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Even Connery had the sense not to kill the character.

    "Cubby, I've got a shuper idea!"
    "What's that, Sean?"
    "Well in the next film, we'll kill James Bond off"
    "We can't do that, we want this series to carry on as long as we can"
    "That's okay, it'll be my last one, just cast another actor for the next one"
    "To play who?"
    "James Bond"
    "But he'll be dead!"
    "No, it'll be a new character arc"
    "What the hell's that?"
    "It's where one timeline stops and another starts"
    "Timeline? what are you on about?"
    "It'll be a reboot"
    "You want new boots?"
    "Nooo! It's a thing. You kill him, but he carries on"
    "So he doesn't die?"
    "No, one James Bond dies, then the next one starts up again"
    "Ah, the codename theory. I get it now"
    "No, it's the same character, but in a different universe"
    "But these films aren't sci-fi Sean. Have you been on the Jamesons?"
    "Och, you have no vision Cubby. It's all about taking chances and subverting the character".
    "It sounds daft"
    "But I want to have a death scene, all good actors want a death scene, I WANT HIM TO DIE!!!"
    "Sorry Sean, no actor is bigger than James Bond. We'll go for the flaming kebabs and bomb in a cake idea. Thanks for stopping by, and your new toupee's on the hat rack, you can grab it on the way out".

    😆 That made me chuckle. Great stuff!
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,552
    I wonder what happened to the members who spent the better part of Fall and Winter ranting about NTTD like there's no tomorrow, only to confess they had neither seen the film nor planned to. That was an interesting, somewhat surreal "first reactions" experience. I'm curious about their current reactions. More deconstruction of a film they haven't seen?
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