NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,700
    Seve wrote: »
    As others have said this is an interesting, thought provoking post, but...
    TripAces wrote: »
    No. Let me explain it to you.
    For fifteen years, Bond had been having an existential crisis, which is likely a byproduct of the job. That crisis is between who he is and who he wants to be. It's also a Jungian conflict: the duality of man and his inner fight between himself and his shadow self. This us why "choice" and "fate" are such a deep themes in DC's films.

    The thing is, I've read a couple of autobiographies by actual hitmen, and they are not the kind of people who suffer from "existential crises" or are subject to "Jungian conflict".

    Professional killers either make no distinction between violence towards another human being and painting a book shelf, or believe that some ideal or cause they support is more important than human life. Either way they are not conflicted, because if they were they would soon be dead.

    Bond presumably falls into the latter category.

    However I acknowledge that Fleming's James Bond is not a typical assassin either. Fleming is like any of us trying to put himself in the place of a person for whom killing strangers is part of a chosen profession and understand how they might feel about things, but not really getting it.

    The year before he became James Bond, Daniel Craig played another professional assassin in "Munich" and had this to say about his character in that film

    “Steve is a character, who, on face value, seems to be very strong and very in control of his destiny. Like all the guys, he believes in this job because he believes in Israel. He believes some action has to be taken because of this terrible act at Munich. Steve is someone who has always dealt with life like a bull in a china shop. He just dives in headfirst and deals with the consequences later. Steve is very gung ho, but as the movie goes on, he suffers because of the terrible acts that they commit. That’s what interested me so much about doing the film. Steve is a flawed character, and he doesn’t expect to feel the emotional turmoil he starts feeling.”

    However in the same article, the reporter said that they had spoken with the real life "Steve" and other members of that assassination team and none of them acknowledged feeling any conflict or remorse about the killings they had undertaken.

    Now I'm not judging them, just pointing out the difference between what actors and writers (or you and I) might imagine such people feel about what they do and what they actually feel.
    TripAces wrote: »
    ... Bond makes the only decision he can make: sacrificing himself for the future happiness of both Madeleine and Mathilde...

    I really dislike this whole Shakespearian tragedy angle.

    Fate, karma... bah humbug to that!

    I prefer to think that "while there's life, there's hope" and that James Bond does too

    Excellent post, sir! If you've ever seen the movie "Blue Thunder" there's a moment when a bad guy kills 'JAFO' after he escapes from them by running him over with his vehicle. As the car supposedly killed the young man, the actor driving it suddenly looked as if he had a rush of emotions- horror, accomplishment, suppression, forced calm.... it was astonishing. Most scenes like that either have the actor being stone cold or gleefully evil.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,527
    Seve wrote: »
    As others have said this is an interesting, thought provoking post, but...
    TripAces wrote: »
    No. Let me explain it to you.
    For fifteen years, Bond had been having an existential crisis, which is likely a byproduct of the job. That crisis is between who he is and who he wants to be. It's also a Jungian conflict: the duality of man and his inner fight between himself and his shadow self. This us why "choice" and "fate" are such a deep themes in DC's films.

    The thing is, I've read a couple of autobiographies by actual hitmen, and they are not the kind of people who suffer from "existential crises" or are subject to "Jungian conflict".

    Professional killers either make no distinction between violence towards another human being and painting a book shelf, or believe that some ideal or cause they support is more important than human life. Either way they are not conflicted, because if they were they would soon be dead.

    Bond presumably falls into the latter category.

    However I acknowledge that Fleming's James Bond is not a typical assassin either. Fleming is like any of us trying to put himself in the place of a person for whom killing strangers is part of a chosen profession and understand how they might feel about things, but not really getting it.

    The year before he became James Bond, Daniel Craig played another professional assassin in "Munich" and had this to say about his character in that film

    “Steve is a character, who, on face value, seems to be very strong and very in control of his destiny. Like all the guys, he believes in this job because he believes in Israel. He believes some action has to be taken because of this terrible act at Munich. Steve is someone who has always dealt with life like a bull in a china shop. He just dives in headfirst and deals with the consequences later. Steve is very gung ho, but as the movie goes on, he suffers because of the terrible acts that they commit. That’s what interested me so much about doing the film. Steve is a flawed character, and he doesn’t expect to feel the emotional turmoil he starts feeling.”

    However in the same article, the reporter said that they had spoken with the real life "Steve" and other members of that assassination team and none of them acknowledged feeling any conflict or remorse about the killings they had undertaken.

    Now I'm not judging them, just pointing out the difference between what actors and writers (or you and I) might imagine such people feel about what they do and what they actually feel.
    TripAces wrote: »
    ... Bond makes the only decision he can make: sacrificing himself for the future happiness of both Madeleine and Mathilde...

    I really dislike this whole Shakespearian tragedy angle.

    Fate, karma... bah humbug to that!

    I prefer to think that "while there's life, there's hope" and that James Bond does too

    Very cool, informative post here. Thanks!
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,571
    matt_u wrote: »

    Thanks sharing mate

    The more I read interviews with Cary, the more it seems the ending was set in stone before he was even considered. I wonder if that was a sticking point for most directors they supposedly interviewed between 2016-18?

    I'm no director/writer, but I can imagine how tough it would be to have to work backwards from an ending that isn't yours and has never been done before
  • Posts: 1,036
    I'd be interested to read about the thoughts behind that decision.
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    I'd say it's pretty normal for a director to work with material they didn't come up with themselves and even writer/directors do adaptations or sequels/prequels that have to fit into existing narratives and have the studio or producers dictate where certain storylines have to end up.
    The "never been done before" part is a challenge, but in a way, every previous Bond director (well, before the Craig era) has been told: He has to survive, the bad guy has to die, Bond will foil their plot, get the girl and here are a dozen chatchphrases, callbacks and traditions you have to build in there, here are our product partners and please top everything that has been done in the previous films. It's not like Bond has ever been even close to a freewheeling auteur-director-driven series. For the first 20 films it was almost the exact opposite.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,066
    If EON was set to end Craig's run with Bond being killed, I'm starting to doubt Boyle left because of that. Which is why I'd love to know more details about what exactly made him and EON part ways if it wasn't Bond's death.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,067
    Yes, I'd like more information about Boyle's departure too.

    I remember the Russian missile silo rumor...is that why Safin's island felt like that kind of repurposed set? Also the Cuban street.
  • Posts: 1,036
    echo wrote: »
    Yes, I'd like more information about Boyle's departure too.

    I don't think it would be because of the stupid idea of killing off James Bond. I think he'd have known they were going with all that nonsense before he signed up, so I'd be very surprised if the ludicrous idea of Bond's death was what made Boyle leave.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    echo wrote: »
    Yes, I'd like more information about Boyle's departure too.

    I don't think it would be because of the stupid idea of killing off James Bond. I think he'd have known they were going with all that nonsense before he signed up, so I'd be very surprised if the ludicrous idea of Bond's death was what made Boyle leave.

    It was the death of DouDou.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,869
    echo wrote: »
    Yes, I'd like more information about Boyle's departure too.

    I don't think it would be because of the stupid idea of killing off James Bond. I think he'd have known they were going with all that nonsense before he signed up, so I'd be very surprised if the ludicrous idea of Bond's death was what made Boyle leave.

    It was the death of DouDou.

    That's exactly what I read in a scholarly essay written by EoN titled: Ten Points In How To Tick-Off Bond Fans
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    edited December 2021 Posts: 660
    Boyle left over a casting disagreement and also because he wanted the plot to involve Russia.
    https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/08/danny-boyle-bond-25-villain-casting
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,869
    @slide_99 ... Little more to it than that.
  • FeyadorFeyador Montreal, Canada
    Posts: 735
    When did Boyle leave and Fukunaga arrive?

    According to the official podcast, there was a group meeting of principals [Craig; the producers and ???] in "early 2017" to discuss and ultimately confirm the idea of killing Bond.

    Craig definitely didn't want to come back after Spectre, according to Wilson, though it's not stated outright that it was his idea to kill Bond or that it was a precondition for returning for then untitled B25.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited December 2021 Posts: 4,343
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Boyle left over a casting disagreement and also because he wanted the plot to involve Russia.
    https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/08/danny-boyle-bond-25-villain-casting

    No.

    It was obviously because of the plot.

    The big "gold" Boyle idea was that Bond had a relationship in the past - not with Madeleine - and he finds out he has a child but as the script work developed from the original treatment it started to veer further and further away from the original story.

    To me it's pretty clear that Boyle wanted a more standalone story - both tonally and plot wise - instead of a last chapter wrapping up an entire era.

    EDIT: The notion that Bond finds out he has a child from an old relationship with some random woman we never knew about is just stupid IMO.
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    matt_u wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Boyle left over a casting disagreement and also because he wanted the plot to involve Russia.
    https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/08/danny-boyle-bond-25-villain-casting

    No.

    It was obviously because of the plot.

    The big "gold" Boyle idea was that Bond had a relationship in the past - not with Madeleine - and he finds out he has a child but as the script work developed from the original treatment it started to veer further and further away from the original story.

    To me it's pretty clear that Boyle wanted a more standalone story - both tonally and plot wise - instead of a last chapter wrapping up an entire era.

    EDIT: The notion that Bond finds out he has a child from an old relationship with some random woman we never knew about is just stupid IMO.

    The fact that the big relationship that gets all the reveals in NTTD rolling is with a woman we previously know is what saves those decision for me I think. If they had just sprung a completely unknown woman on us and Bond has a kid with her and they are so deeply in love that he'd rather die than endanger her, I think I would have joined those that hate the ending. That would have been too hacky. And even with Madeleine it is pretty thin, when we think about how much time the two actually spend together, but Lea Seydoux makes it just work, for me.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,869
    And the big, big, big issue was the powers that be wanted script doctors to work the script and Boyle flat-out refused. The only one to touch the script was the original writer he brought with with (Hodge, right?); the powers that be dissolved the relationship when they reached this point.

    I also did hear that Craig and Boyle banged heads a few times.

    However, the straw that broke the camel’s back seemed to be Boyle’s refusal of script doctors (as an indie filmmaker he’s likely not had to work too often with these doctors, but; on every single big budget film you’ve seen in the past 20 years(+), uncredited script doctors fingerprints are all over those films (in fact, the real money for A-list writers is script doctoring… they get hired for a couple to three weeks work (like Scott Burns on NTTD), and walk away with millions in their bank account).

    Someone like Tarantino has been an uncredited script doctor on dozens of films…
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    Posts: 1,261
    echo wrote: »
    Yes, I'd like more information about Boyle's departure too.

    I remember the Russian missile silo rumor...is that why Safin's island felt like that kind of repurposed set? Also the Cuban street.

    Well, Mark Tildesley was already busy buuilduing sets for Boyle's Bond movie. When Fukunaga came on board, he thought, he will be replaced by another designer, but Fukunaga told him, that he liked his work sob far, and that he wanted Tildsley to stay. So I assume, that Fukunaga relied on sets already being built, when he was hired. Think about it, origoinally shooting was o begin in December 2918, until Boyle walked out. Then they first pushed shooting starting in February 2019, then Mrch 2019, and then April 2019. Would also like to know, if they used anything from the Boyle/Hodge script. Boyle said, EON could have used it, as they had paid him and Hodge for it, thus having "bought" the script, which then was EON's.
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited December 2021 Posts: 357
    matt_u wrote: »
    The big "gold" Boyle idea was that Bond had a relationship in the past - not with Madeleine - and he finds out he has a child but as the script work developed from the original treatment it started to veer further and further away from the original story.

    The notion that Bond finds out he has a child from an old relationship with some random woman we never knew about is just stupid IMO.

    That's right, more likely Bond would have dozens of children from passed relationships and one night stands over the 50+ years since Dr No...

    3990.jpg?width=1200&height=900&quality=85&auto=format&fit=crop&s=7663767ec7aeeaec62d47e7c8df5c738

    I give you the new 00 section!
  • marcmarc Universal Exports
    Posts: 2,609
    Seve wrote: »
    3990.jpg?width=1200&height=900&quality=85&auto=format&fit=crop&s=7663767ec7aeeaec62d47e7c8df5c738
    A few scenes of B26 have been shot already?
  • FeyadorFeyador Montreal, Canada
    Posts: 735
    marc wrote: »
    Seve wrote: »
    3990.jpg?width=1200&height=900&quality=85&auto=format&fit=crop&s=7663767ec7aeeaec62d47e7c8df5c738
    A few scenes of B26 have been shot already?

    No Time to Cry???

    Sorry ...
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    Posts: 357
    Feyador wrote: »
    marc wrote: »
    Seve wrote: »
    3990.jpg?width=1200&height=900&quality=85&auto=format&fit=crop&s=7663767ec7aeeaec62d47e7c8df5c738
    A few scenes of B26 have been shot already?

    No Time to Cry???

    Sorry ...

    No Crime to Try
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    edited December 2021 Posts: 1,261
    No, the title will be "Jimbo Junior - The diapher of death".

    thumb-1920-773569.jpg
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,533
    My reaction upon first viewing:
    "This might be my second favorite Craig film."

    My reaction upon my second viewing last night:
    "I still prefer CR and QOS but this is a great movie."
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,700
    Feyador wrote: »
    marc wrote: »
    Seve wrote: »
    3990.jpg?width=1200&height=900&quality=85&auto=format&fit=crop&s=7663767ec7aeeaec62d47e7c8df5c738
    A few scenes of B26 have been shot already?

    No Time to Cry???

    Sorry ...

    POST OF THE DAY, LOL!!!
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 2,982
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    The more I read interviews with Cary, the more it seems the ending was set in stone before he was even considered
    Yes, it looks like it was - Craig recently said that 'we had an ending locked in' and 'we had an end so it was about hanging the film off that.'
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,066
    Why are some here pretending that thinking of the ending first is some novel and unnatural concept?
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited December 2021 Posts: 7,527
    Why are some here pretending that thinking of the ending first is some novel and unnatural concept?

    I'm not sure how common/uncommon it is, but I know this is how Chris Nolan operates as well.

    I have a Bond project floating around my head and I'm essentially starting from the ending I want as well. Hint: Someone dies, but it's not Bond this time. ;)
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,554
    matt_u wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Boyle left over a casting disagreement and also because he wanted the plot to involve Russia.
    https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/08/danny-boyle-bond-25-villain-casting

    No.

    It was obviously because of the plot.

    The big "gold" Boyle idea was that Bond had a relationship in the past - not with Madeleine - and he finds out he has a child but as the script work developed from the original treatment it started to veer further and further away from the original story.

    To me it's pretty clear that Boyle wanted a more standalone story - both tonally and plot wise - instead of a last chapter wrapping up an entire era.

    EDIT: The notion that Bond finds out he has a child from an old relationship with some random woman we never knew about is just stupid IMO.

    Agreed
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited December 2021 Posts: 12,459
    We all have our James Bond. I mean really, OUR James Bond. In our minds and hearts, from our entire life's experience of watching the movies and reading the novels. For some of us, a new actor's tenure will be satisfying and for other it just won't work for them. I don't view this as a problem. There is nothing wrong with that, in my opinion.

    There are after all more enough Bond films for all of us to choose from to enjoy. And the next one will be different, too. One person thinks this is NOT what Bond is about or would ever do, or dislike the psychology probing of Bond in a story, or dislikes the campiness in that Bond's tenure or think it is not true to Fleming or think it's just too many nods to Fleming to matter ... we judge according to our own perceptions that are mostly set. Just human nature. I wish more folks on the forum would give others breathing room and not get upset or determined to make our points the most valid ones in a discussion. We like what we like, what fits for us. That varies with each new Bond actor and each new script. That's fine with me.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,459
    Ah, I will have to read more; but if Boyle wanted a stand alone, I am again really relieved he did not direct NTTD. I appreciate what we got much more than I would have from a stand alone (which to me is almost what Spectre was).
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