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NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited November 2021 Posts: 2,928
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I took it as a moment where Bond considered letting himself with Madeline get killed. At that moment he’s at his lowest, and it’s only when he looks into her eyes as she’s appealing to him that he decides to spare themselves but cut her off as soon as they’re safe.
    Yes, that's how I saw it too. Thinking about it, Madeleine was lucky she knew an older Bond - he tried to kill Vesper himself when he thought she'd played him.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,501
    I thought the same @MakeshiftPython and @Venutius .... And Venutius: he was also ready to put a bullet into Camille's head so she wouldn't suffer an agonizing death, being eaten by fire as almost happened when she was a child....(!)
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    Posts: 12,269
    Good posts, and I agree. There are some very “real” moments, so to speak, with Craig’s era we hadn’t seen anything like before. Not doing anything in the car in NTTD and about to mercy kill Camille in QOS are big ones.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,526
    Venutius wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I took it as a moment where Bond considered letting himself with Madeline get killed. At that moment he’s at his lowest, and it’s only when he looks into her eyes as she’s appealing to him that he decides to spare themselves but cut her off as soon as they’re safe.
    Yes, that's how I saw it too. Thinking about it, Madeleine was lucky she knew an older Bond - he tried to kill Vesper himself when he thought she'd played him.

    How do you figure that? Because he said "Allow me"?
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,416
    NickTwentyTwo wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I took it as a moment where Bond considered letting himself with Madeline get killed. At that moment he’s at his lowest, and it’s only when he looks into her eyes as she’s appealing to him that he decides to spare themselves but cut her off as soon as they’re safe.
    Yes, that's how I saw it too. Thinking about it, Madeleine was lucky she knew an older Bond - he tried to kill Vesper himself when he thought she'd played him.

    How do you figure that? Because he said "Allow me"?

    That's how I interpreted it. Unless he meant that for Gettler.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,526
    Last_Rat_Standing wrote: »
    NickTwentyTwo wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I took it as a moment where Bond considered letting himself with Madeline get killed. At that moment he’s at his lowest, and it’s only when he looks into her eyes as she’s appealing to him that he decides to spare themselves but cut her off as soon as they’re safe.
    Yes, that's how I saw it too. Thinking about it, Madeleine was lucky she knew an older Bond - he tried to kill Vesper himself when he thought she'd played him.

    How do you figure that? Because he said "Allow me"?

    That's how I interpreted it. Unless he meant that for Gettler.

    I think he was talking about Vesper, but to me that's a lot different than actually trying to kill her. He tried to save her from drowning in the elevator. I think to say Bond actually tried to kill Vesper in Venice is a bit of a stretch.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    He was just kinda sarcastic and very angry.
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    Posts: 12,269
    Heat of the moment for sure.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,526
    Yes yes and yes.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited November 2021 Posts: 8,025
    I always interpreted that he wanted to kill Vesper in the heat of the moment, but he probably wouldn’t go through with it when he has her in his sights because he still loves her. It’s the same thing with Madeleine. He was ready to let her die with him in the car, but that part of him that still loves her made him reconsider. That’s why he says he never stopped loving her, and it’s the same with Vesper as we see at the grave site.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,526
    Totally.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited November 2021 Posts: 2,928
    NickTwentyTwo wrote: »
    I think to say Bond actually tried to kill Vesper in Venice is a bit of a stretch.
    Oh, I dunno.
    Gettler: 'I'll kill her!'
    Bond: 'Allow me.' And he starts to come out from behind the column in order to shoot, but Gettler's henchman shoots at Bond first, so he can't get a shot off. That's pretty unambiguous, I'd've thought, no? Like MakeshiftPython said, it's a heat-of-the-moment reaction and not something he wanted to do even five minutes later when, like you say, he's actually trying to save her. As with Madeleine when he gets back to the hotel in Matera - his blood's up, he's angry. He's not reasoning things through, he's reverted to his instincts. Other interpretations are available, though, obvs! ;)
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    Venutius wrote: »
    NickTwentyTwo wrote: »
    I think to say Bond actually tried to kill Vesper in Venice is a bit of a stretch.
    Oh, I dunno.
    Gettler: 'I'll kill her!'
    Bond: 'Allow me.' And he starts to come out from behind the column in order to shoot, but Gettler's henchman shoots at Bond first, so he can't get a shot off. That's pretty unambiguous, I'd've thought, no? Like MakeshiftPython said, it's a heat-of-the-moment reaction and not something he wanted to do even five minutes later when, like you say, he's actually trying to save her. As with Madeleine when he gets back to the hotel in Matera - his blood's up, he's angry. He's not reasoning things through, he's reverted to his instincts. Other interpretations are available, though, obvs! ;)

    The thing is would Bond have actually gone through with it? If he looked her in the eyes while holding up his gun would he have taken the shot? I doubt it, but we never get that moment so it’s left to interpretation.

    Interestingly, we do get such a moment with Silva when he’s about to kill M, and he couldn’t do it!
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,526
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    NickTwentyTwo wrote: »
    I think to say Bond actually tried to kill Vesper in Venice is a bit of a stretch.
    Oh, I dunno.
    Gettler: 'I'll kill her!'
    Bond: 'Allow me.' And he starts to come out from behind the column in order to shoot, but Gettler's henchman shoots at Bond first, so he can't get a shot off. That's pretty unambiguous, I'd've thought, no? Like MakeshiftPython said, it's a heat-of-the-moment reaction and not something he wanted to do even five minutes later when, like you say, he's actually trying to save her. As with Madeleine when he gets back to the hotel in Matera - his blood's up, he's angry. He's not reasoning things through, he's reverted to his instincts. Other interpretations are available, though, obvs! ;)

    The thing is would Bond have actually gone through with it? If he looked her in the eyes while holding up his gun would he have taken the shot? I doubt it, but we never get that moment so it’s left to interpretation.

    Interestingly, we do get such a moment with Silva when he’s about to kill M, and he couldn’t do it!

    Agreed. Different interpretations!
  • StamperStamper
    Posts: 372
    It's funny, but remember in QOS, there is that moment when Bond and Camille are trapped into the fire, and Bond gets his gun, and for a while he considers killing her then him.
    It looks to me that the thematics of NTTD were there from the get go.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,526
    Goes way back to the novels when he plans how to drown himself and Solitaire in LALD
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691
    Stamper wrote: »
    It's funny, but remember in QOS, there is that moment when Bond and Camille are trapped into the fire, and Bond gets his gun, and for a while he considers killing her then him.
    It looks to me that the thematics of NTTD were there from the get go.

    I *LOVED* that in QOS!! That moment of resignation, then back to defiance in the face of no real chance! Then he MADE his chance!
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 208

    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I took it as a moment where Bond considered letting himself with Madeline get killed. At that moment he’s at his lowest, and it’s only when he looks into her eyes as she’s appealing to him that he decides to spare themselves but cut her off as soon as they’re safe.

    He decides it’s no time to die
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited November 2021 Posts: 2,928
    Stamper wrote: »
    It's funny, but remember in QOS, there is that moment when Bond and Camille are trapped into the fire, and Bond gets his gun, and for a while he considers killing her then him.
    Yes, brilliant. 'Not this way, not this way' - 'Close your eyes...' Excellent.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited November 2021 Posts: 5,979
    Double post. Sorry.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited November 2021 Posts: 5,979
    This might also be why he wrote "Forgive me" in NTTD. Because he did try to kill Vesper.

    I love the OHMSS callback to the gunshots on the DB5 most of all.

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    echo wrote: »
    This might also be why he wrote "Forgive me" in NTTD. Because he did try to kill Vesper.

    I think part of why he asked for forgiveness from her was also because it took a long time for him to forgive her. Remember in QOS, Mathis implored him to forgive her AND forgive himself for staying angry at her.
  • retrovertigoretrovertigo Australia
    edited November 2021 Posts: 11
    Don't forget that in the Aston DB5 window shooting scene, one of the first shots that Primo takes is directly at Madeline. I'm pretty sure Bond sees this.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson Moderator
    edited November 2021 Posts: 2,161
    Not the first time Bond has had a daughter, remember. I prefer Mata. Probably my favorite bit in the film. Come to think of it, Bond dies in this one as well.

  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited November 2021 Posts: 2,928
    In QOS, I thought Mathis wanted Bond to forgive himself for not being able to save Vesper. In NTTD, I thought Bond wanted Vesper to forgive him for finally loving someone else. I like to see all these other interpretations, though - it's good to look at things from different angles and consider stuff that hadn't occurred to you.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson Moderator
    edited November 2021 Posts: 2,161
    So, in movie time, Craig's Bond has spent a total of about seven months with these two women over a span of 15 years, yet they dominate the narrative of four of his five entries. He certainly becomes far more attached than the other five guys did.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited November 2021 Posts: 2,928
    Yeah, but one of em looked like Eva Green, so...😉
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    Birdleson wrote: »
    So, in movie time, Craig's Bond has spent a total of about seven months with these two women over a span of 15 years, yet they dominate the narrative of four of his five entries. He certainly becomes far more attached than the other five guys did.

    To be fair, Fleming’s Bond was visiting Vesper’s grave annually. 10 years after the first novel.

    Get over it, pal!
  • BirdlesonBirdleson Moderator
    edited November 2021 Posts: 2,161

    And to be fair, I believe Vesper is mention twice by Fleming post CR. Never more than a side note.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    That was directed at Fleming’s Bond to get over Vesper. Not you. :P
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