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NTTD - Official Trailer Discussion Thread - First trailer OUT NOW (MINOR SPOILERS ALLOWED)

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  • JeremyBondonJeremyBondon Seeking out odd jobs with Oddjob @Tangier
    Posts: 1,318
    Red_Snow wrote: »
    ringfire211 wrote: »
    There’s also the simple fact that women just don’t have the strength and fighting skill that men do. So when they push that junk in action movies I always roll my eyes. To see one skinny chick take on 3 guys twice her size and chop them down to size... I’m like... puhleeese!!! I just don’t have time for nonsense like that. So it always rubs me the wrong way when they insert that into Bond films... Bond has finally met his match!!!! They’ve been doing that forever actually. But it’s where we are right now. To show a woman in some sort of a more traditional feminine role is looked at as sexist or demeaning. She has to be a total hard-ass who takes no prisoners and puts the men in their place. It’s quite lame and tiring actually and is just pandering of the highest order.

    And before anyone calls me sexist or whatever... quick question... how many women NAVY SEALS are there? Are there any at all? Because the movies paint this picture of women kicking ass left and right. But the real world seems to paint a totally different picture. Men and women are built differently and women simply aren’t meant to take the kind of abuse that men are.

    I hope we never cross paths.

    Strange reply. Try and refute his post at least.
  • patbpatb
    edited December 2019 Posts: 4,600
    It is interesting that Skyfall included a female MI6 agent who was authorised to kill ("take the bloody shot") and it hardly caused a ripple but it seems to be a big issue (to some) with the latest movie.
  • ringfire211ringfire211
    Posts: 646
    All I’m saying is that when a guy is beating the crap out of someone I find that more believable than when a woman does it. Again, how many women are Navy Seals?

    And as for the argument that it’s fantasy and make-believe it was Fleming who wrote this “fantasy” and he created 007 to be a white straight male. Not a black woman. Or any other permutation. It’s as simple as that. So Lashana being a fellow agent is one thing but being 007??? That’s a big NO-NO!! Just like there’s not a white female John Shaft.
  • octofingeroctofinger
    Posts: 787
    Are we still talking about this?
  • Benjamin_Weekly69Benjamin_Weekly69 London
    Posts: 727
    patb wrote: »
    It is interesting that Skyfall included a female MI6 agent who was authorised to kill ("take the bloody shot") and it hardly caused a ripple but it seems to be a big issue (to some) with the latest movie.

    There wasn't a reactionary industry on the internet yet.
  • patbpatb
    edited December 2019 Posts: 4,600
    Sorry to those who find it obvious but....Fleming created Bond to be a white, straight male. The was nothing to indicate that the 007 label was his exclusively. There would have been a 007 before he filled that role and there would be one afterwards when he retired. To conflate the personal characterists of the man with the code name that he carried makes little sense. Using the John Shaft example makes even less sense. (It was his name!)
  • cwl007cwl007 England
    Posts: 611
    ringfire211 wrote: »
    There’s also the simple fact that women just don’t have the strength and fighting skill that men do.

    I completely disagree with that first sentence alone.
    Strength?, maybe if we compare like for like. However a trained and fit woman could beat an average/untrained/unfit man in a 1 to 1.
    "Fighting skills" ? - absolute nonsense, many woman in the armed forces or female boxers or female black belts etc etc could EASILY match the skills of men trained to the same standard.
    I'm 6'3", I work out and I'm reasonably fit however I wouldn't last a round in a boxing ring with Nicola Adams for example (British female Boxer)
    Why?, because she has the strength and fighting skills.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,588
    4ligrh70zyd7.png

    Pretty sure that man with the grey ponytail is Clem So, Tom So's brother who appeared in SF and SP. Anyone want to chime in?
  • cwl007cwl007 England
    Posts: 611
    * Sorry, I messed the quote thingy up. Hope my post makes sense.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,034
    ringfire211 wrote: »
    All I’m saying is that when a guy is beating the crap out of someone I find that more believable than when a woman does it. Again, how many women are Navy Seals?

    And as for the argument that it’s fantasy and make-believe it was Fleming who wrote this “fantasy” and he created 007 to be a white straight male. Not a black woman. Or any other permutation. It’s as simple as that. So Lashana being a fellow agent is one thing but being 007??? That’s a big NO-NO!! Just like there’s not a white female John Shaft.

    This is about as vacuous as it gets. Newsflash; MI6 operatives also don't get designated Aston Martin's with guns behind the headlights, and Fleming also didn't write him to be surfing down tsunamis or flying into space; or even on a more trivial level, be a non-smoker!

    Who cares how many women are in the Navy Seals? Are the men in the Navy Seals or any equivalent branch of respective military the only ones capable of beating someone down or having some form of killer instinct? The armed forces are full of tough women and have been for a long time and there have been female members of Special Branch and Counter Terrorism for a long time, too.

    I've seen women (untrained but very angry) beat the crap out of men larger than them. Not with relative ease, but they managed it. It really isn't impossible.
  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ancient Rome
    Posts: 3,497
    HildebrandRarity wrote: »
    You're missing Dark Phoenix, which was abyssal, as the elements of female empowerment were shoehorned into the script (they even changed Xavier into a dick), probably by some male writer who was trying to stay relevant. They also asked Sophie Turner to show some range, which is something she's unable of, while forcing Jessica Chastain to have no expressivity. Famke Janssen would have been much better than Turner, but the script and the directing were crap anyway.

    Regarding buddy movies, The Man from UNCLE was definitely one of them. Even if that's obviously not the direction they are going with NTTD, such a line wouldn't have shocked in this movie. Actually, this kind of passive aggressive banter is common comic relief, and an opportunity for dialog to be witty. What will be Bond's retort?

    Still not convinced that NTTD will be a bad movie because of Noomi.

    These comparisons don't make any sense at all. Dark Phoenix was doomed the moment they hired "that guy" from X3.

  • Red_SnowRed_Snow Australia
    Posts: 2,496
    ringfire211 wrote: »
    All I’m saying is that when a guy is beating the crap out of someone I find that more believable than when a woman does it. Again, how many women are Navy Seals?

    And as for the argument that it’s fantasy and make-believe it was Fleming who wrote this “fantasy” and he created 007 to be a white straight male. Not a black woman. Or any other permutation. It’s as simple as that. So Lashana being a fellow agent is one thing but being 007??? That’s a big NO-NO!! Just like there’s not a white female John Shaft.

    Because woman are restricted from certain military roles, eventhough we are just as capable.
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    Posts: 3,126
  • JeffreyJeffrey The Netherlands
    Posts: 308
    jake24 wrote: »
    4ligrh70zyd7.png

    That's such a cool shot.

  • cwl007cwl007 England
    Posts: 611
    It is cool. Do we know what this is, SPECTRE gathering maybe?
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    Posts: 3,126
    talos7 wrote: »
    So someone can fully embrace strong women in films and find countless black women attractive, sexy smart and capable, but because they don’t see those qualities in Lynch they’re racist, misogynistic knuckle draggers? One of the things that I enjoy about Bond films is attractive women; I don’t find Lynch particularly attractive; I live in a city that is 70% black; every day I see beautiful black women. It’s not about color.

    When it comes to strong women in film, Sigourney Weaver is one of my all time favorite actresses; she’s played strong women throughout her career with Ellen Ripley being the strongest. I don’t remember a bit of backlash or misogyny when either Alien or Aliens came out . She took charge, kicked ass and nobody batted an eye.

    I’m sure there are racist and misogynist out there who who don’t care for Lynch because of her skin color or because she’s a woman portraying a strong character, but it’s mistake to paint with a broad brush and imply that any , or the majority who don’t find her appealing or care for what we’ve seen of her character at this point, are guided by the same motivations.

    +1
  • boldfingerboldfinger
    Posts: 5,767
    patb wrote: »
    It is interesting that Skyfall included a female MI6 agent who was authorised to kill ("take the bloody shot") and it hardly caused a ripple but it seems to be a big issue (to some) with the latest movie.
    Perhaps because it is not the fact that she´s a 00, but the performance/depiction in the trailer?


    RC7 wrote: »
    ringfire211 wrote: »
    There’s also the simple fact that women just don’t have the strength and fighting skill that men do. So when they push that junk in action movies I always roll my eyes. To see one skinny chick take on 3 guys twice her size and chop them down to size... I’m like... puhleeese!!! I just don’t have time for nonsense like that. So it always rubs me the wrong way when they insert that into Bond films... Bond has finally met his match!!!! They’ve been doing that forever actually. But it’s where we are right now. To show a woman in some sort of a more traditional feminine role is looked at as sexist or demeaning. She has to be a total hard-ass who takes no prisoners and puts the men in their place. It’s quite lame and tiring actually and is just pandering of the highest order.

    And before anyone calls me sexist or whatever... quick question... how many women NAVY SEALS are there? Are there any at all? Because the movies paint this picture of women kicking ass left and right. But the real world seems to paint a totally different picture. Men and women are built differently and women simply aren’t meant to take the kind of abuse that men are.

    But you’re happy for Bond to dodge all those bullets? 24 films and he’s been shot twice. The reality is no human would last more than a few seconds in some of the scenarios Bond finds himself, we’re talking fantasy. You sound like you’ve got some issues if this is what you get angry about.

    Regardless, what you’re stating hardly happens, if at all, in most Bond films and sometimes when it does - Xenia - it’s great fun.
    Xenia was fun because she was fun, not because she was a woman or because she kicked ass. It was the whole combination. Like Jinx was lame not because she was a woman and kicked ass.
    I´d be over the moon if Nomi turns out as as much fun as Xenia was. Though I wouldn´t categorise Xenia as a strong woman in the common sense, because she clearly was a bit psychopathic.

  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    Posts: 3,126
    Red_Snow wrote: »
    ringfire211 wrote: »
    All I’m saying is that when a guy is beating the crap out of someone I find that more believable than when a woman does it. Again, how many women are Navy Seals?

    And as for the argument that it’s fantasy and make-believe it was Fleming who wrote this “fantasy” and he created 007 to be a white straight male. Not a black woman. Or any other permutation. It’s as simple as that. So Lashana being a fellow agent is one thing but being 007??? That’s a big NO-NO!! Just like there’s not a white female John Shaft.

    Because woman are restricted from certain military roles, eventhough we are just as capable.

    It's all this issue of replacing stuff that are recognizable to male franchises like the 007 logo or the DB5 to female roles they are so tied that when someone male or female else has in it won't sit right and general audiences get confused look at men in black as an example you have men in black as the title and you have a man and a woman on the cover. Wonder Women trailer just came out and you don't see the man taking things. I don't know it will all straighten its self out hopefully. As M says in License to Kill its thier mess have them deal with it. Probably got the qoute wrong. If we had nomi as 009 a continuation from Spectre that makes sense we wouldn't have this but no.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    ringfire211 wrote: »
    There’s also the simple fact that women just don’t have the strength and fighting skill that men do. So when they push that junk in action movies I always roll my eyes. To see one skinny chick take on 3 guys twice her size and chop them down to size... I’m like... puhleeese!!! I just don’t have time for nonsense like that. So it always rubs me the wrong way when they insert that into Bond films... Bond has finally met his match!!!! They’ve been doing that forever actually. But it’s where we are right now. To show a woman in some sort of a more traditional feminine role is looked at as sexist or demeaning. She has to be a total hard-ass who takes no prisoners and puts the men in their place. It’s quite lame and tiring actually and is just pandering of the highest order.

    And before anyone calls me sexist or whatever... quick question... how many women NAVY SEALS are there? Are there any at all? Because the movies paint this picture of women kicking ass left and right. But the real world seems to paint a totally different picture. Men and women are built differently and women simply aren’t meant to take the kind of abuse that men are.

    Have you ever seen those women UFC fighters? Not really my thing, but they're as tough as nails. And of course there have been women bodybuilders for years now. Some of them are huge. I can't say that I specifically know any female Navy Seals, but there are many examples of strong women in the military.

    Now, to your point, do I believe the petite Ana de Armas could be a one woman wrecking crew? Not for a second, just as I didn't believe Uma Thurman in Kill Bill, but I still had a lot of fun watching it.
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    Posts: 3,126
    pachazo wrote: »
    ringfire211 wrote: »
    There’s also the simple fact that women just don’t have the strength and fighting skill that men do. So when they push that junk in action movies I always roll my eyes. To see one skinny chick take on 3 guys twice her size and chop them down to size... I’m like... puhleeese!!! I just don’t have time for nonsense like that. So it always rubs me the wrong way when they insert that into Bond films... Bond has finally met his match!!!! They’ve been doing that forever actually. But it’s where we are right now. To show a woman in some sort of a more traditional feminine role is looked at as sexist or demeaning. She has to be a total hard-ass who takes no prisoners and puts the men in their place. It’s quite lame and tiring actually and is just pandering of the highest order.

    And before anyone calls me sexist or whatever... quick question... how many women NAVY SEALS are there? Are there any at all? Because the movies paint this picture of women kicking ass left and right. But the real world seems to paint a totally different picture. Men and women are built differently and women simply aren’t meant to take the kind of abuse that men are.

    Have you ever seen those women UFC fighters? Not really my thing, but they're as tough as nails. And of course there have been women bodybuilders for years now. Some of them are huge. I can't say that I specifically know any female Navy Seals, but there are many examples of strong women in the military.

    Now, to your point, do I believe the petite Ana de Armas could be a one woman wrecking crew? Not for a second, just as I didn't believe Uma Thurman in Kill Bill, but I still had a lot of fun watching it.

    +1
  • BurgessBurgess
    Posts: 309
    ringfire211 wrote: »
    All I’m saying is that when a guy is beating the crap out of someone I find that more believable than when a woman does it. Again, how many women are Navy Seals?

    And as for the argument that it’s fantasy and make-believe it was Fleming who wrote this “fantasy” and he created 007 to be a white straight male. Not a black woman. Or any other permutation. It’s as simple as that. So Lashana being a fellow agent is one thing but being 007??? That’s a big NO-NO!! Just like there’s not a white female John Shaft.

    It's inarguable that Fleming created a character with specific physical characteristics and a particular worldview. I enjoy that character immensely but, after 24 films and six actors, it's arguable whether or not Fleming's Bond and that of the cinema are the same character (in the strictest sense of the word).

    Would you argue that Bond films not based on a Fleming novel are not really Bond films because they're not canon? Do you not enjoy the non-Fleming bits in every Bond film because they're not canon? Take a look at Fleming's attempts to get Bond translated into film and television prior to Broccoli and Saltzman's involvement. You may be surprised at his willingness to adapt Bond and his world as these mediums required.

    I trust the Broccoli even if I don't always like their creative choices. Their love and dedication to Bond is without reproach. I happen to like the creative choice of adding Nomi to the mix. It's fun to challenge Bond. The character works best when he's on the back foot, and what better way to challenge him (both as a character and icon) than to take away is "00" status or "007" codename. Bond is more than just a cipher. He's not simply a collection of attributes. Bond is a dynamic character that can grow and change in ways that keep him current while still honoring Fleming's vision.


  • Matt007Matt007
    Posts: 1,314
    I think the fact we (I) who grew up in the 80/90s and consumed a diet of male centric media and film content is responsible for a lot of the threat / anger felt by men in their 30s+ about how women are perceived in film in 2020. Its silly, and insecure and to me anyway comes across as the sort of thing that old farts moan about because they can't handle a changing world.

    We're talking about a franchise where the hero has skied off a cliff with a parachute, driven an invisible car, bungee jumped off a mountaintop dam before free falling into a plane, kite surfed a tsunami, had a laser battle in space...

    If you come to Bond for kicks and then complain about the realism of a woman being able to handle herself in the field, I think you need to take a look at the things that annoy you.

    To be honest I don't buy Pierce Brosnan fighting way more than Lashana Lynch.

    Bond isn't a damn Navy Seal. He is a spy. Before Daniel Craig he wasn't a muscle man action hero either. He could charm his way through a mission just as well as punch his way through.

    Heres some reading for you:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simone_Segouin

    https://www.army.mod.uk/news-and-events/news/2018/10/women-in-ground-close-combat-roles/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_kickboxers

  • Matt007Matt007
    edited December 2019 Posts: 1,314
    So someone can fully embrace strong women in films and find countless black women attractive, sexy smart and capable, but because they don’t see those qualities in Lynch they’re racist, misogynistic knuckle draggers?

    So this is a key point

    What in the <20 seconds of screen time and 3 lines of dialogue she has in the trailer could lead anyone to deduce that Lynch isn't smart and capable? We all have our preferences physically, sure. You've arrived at such a conclusion because someone doesn't find her attractive

    Conflating or confusing a woman attractiveness with a woman capability is the sort of casual sexism that women need to fight on a daily basis.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    boldfinger wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    It is interesting that Skyfall included a female MI6 agent who was authorised to kill ("take the bloody shot") and it hardly caused a ripple but it seems to be a big issue (to some) with the latest movie.
    Perhaps because it is not the fact that she´s a 00, but the performance/depiction in the trailer?


    RC7 wrote: »
    ringfire211 wrote: »
    There’s also the simple fact that women just don’t have the strength and fighting skill that men do. So when they push that junk in action movies I always roll my eyes. To see one skinny chick take on 3 guys twice her size and chop them down to size... I’m like... puhleeese!!! I just don’t have time for nonsense like that. So it always rubs me the wrong way when they insert that into Bond films... Bond has finally met his match!!!! They’ve been doing that forever actually. But it’s where we are right now. To show a woman in some sort of a more traditional feminine role is looked at as sexist or demeaning. She has to be a total hard-ass who takes no prisoners and puts the men in their place. It’s quite lame and tiring actually and is just pandering of the highest order.

    And before anyone calls me sexist or whatever... quick question... how many women NAVY SEALS are there? Are there any at all? Because the movies paint this picture of women kicking ass left and right. But the real world seems to paint a totally different picture. Men and women are built differently and women simply aren’t meant to take the kind of abuse that men are.

    But you’re happy for Bond to dodge all those bullets? 24 films and he’s been shot twice. The reality is no human would last more than a few seconds in some of the scenarios Bond finds himself, we’re talking fantasy. You sound like you’ve got some issues if this is what you get angry about.

    Regardless, what you’re stating hardly happens, if at all, in most Bond films and sometimes when it does - Xenia - it’s great fun.
    Xenia was fun because she was fun, not because she was a woman or because she kicked ass. It was the whole combination. Like Jinx was lame not because she was a woman and kicked ass.
    I´d be over the moon if Nomi turns out as as much fun as Xenia was. Though I wouldn´t categorise Xenia as a strong woman in the common sense, because she clearly was a bit psychopathic.

    I never said it was because she was a woman. That would be ridiculous.
  • Matt007Matt007
    Posts: 1,314
    I thought jinx was terrible because she was a crap character poorly written and terribly acted
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    Posts: 3,126
    Matt007 wrote: »
    So someone can fully embrace strong women in films and find countless black women attractive, sexy smart and capable, but because they don’t see those qualities in Lynch they’re racist, misogynistic knuckle draggers?

    So this is a key point

    What in the <20 seconds of screen time and 3 lines of dialogue she has in the trailer could lead anyone to deduce that Lynch isn't smart and capable? We all have our preferences physically, sure. You've arrived at such a conclusion because someone doesn't find her attractive

    Conflating or confusing a woman attractiveness with a woman capability is the sort of casual sexism that women need to fight on a daily basis.

    So women who find men attractive physically aren't sexist but men who find women attractive physically are?
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,034
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    Matt007 wrote: »
    So someone can fully embrace strong women in films and find countless black women attractive, sexy smart and capable, but because they don’t see those qualities in Lynch they’re racist, misogynistic knuckle draggers?

    So this is a key point

    What in the <20 seconds of screen time and 3 lines of dialogue she has in the trailer could lead anyone to deduce that Lynch isn't smart and capable? We all have our preferences physically, sure. You've arrived at such a conclusion because someone doesn't find her attractive

    Conflating or confusing a woman attractiveness with a woman capability is the sort of casual sexism that women need to fight on a daily basis.

    So women who find men attractive physically aren't sexist but men who find women attractive physically are?

    No.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,498
    Burgess wrote: »
    ringfire211 wrote: »
    All I’m saying is that when a guy is beating the crap out of someone I find that more believable than when a woman does it. Again, how many women are Navy Seals?

    And as for the argument that it’s fantasy and make-believe it was Fleming who wrote this “fantasy” and he created 007 to be a white straight male. Not a black woman. Or any other permutation. It’s as simple as that. So Lashana being a fellow agent is one thing but being 007??? That’s a big NO-NO!! Just like there’s not a white female John Shaft.

    It's inarguable that Fleming created a character with specific physical characteristics and a particular worldview. I enjoy that character immensely but, after 24 films and six actors, it's arguable whether or not Fleming's Bond and that of the cinema are the same character (in the strictest sense of the word).

    Would you argue that Bond films not based on a Fleming novel are not really Bond films because they're not canon? Do you not enjoy the non-Fleming bits in every Bond film because they're not canon? Take a look at Fleming's attempts to get Bond translated into film and television prior to Broccoli and Saltzman's involvement. You may be surprised at his willingness to adapt Bond and his world as these mediums required.

    I trust the Broccoli even if I don't always like their creative choices. Their love and dedication to Bond is without reproach. I happen to like the creative choice of adding Nomi to the mix. It's fun to challenge Bond. The character works best when he's on the back foot, and what better way to challenge him (both as a character and icon) than to take away is "00" status or "007" codename. Bond is more than just a cipher. He's not simply a collection of attributes. Bond is a dynamic character that can grow and change in ways that keep him current while still honoring Fleming's vision.


    @Burgess -- very well written, and you're so right about putting Bond on his back foot. If anything, Bond looks very off balance in the little we've seen in the trailer-- and that's what excites me!
  • Matt007Matt007
    Posts: 1,314
    So women who find men attractive physically aren't sexist but men who find women attractive physically are?


    My point
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    your head

  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    Posts: 3,126
    Matt007 wrote: »
    So women who find men attractive physically aren't sexist but men who find women attractive physically are?


    My point
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    your head

    ? I'm confused
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