NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - Discuss Hans Zimmer's Score

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  • Posts: 1,726
    Meanwhile wrote: »
    Yeah, my DB5 too.

    😉

    Hope you got a better deal than I did.
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    edited September 2021 Posts: 1,165
    For all we know it will be revealed Madeleine Swann is a cover and her real name is Tracy, which would make a lot of these arguments moot. Point is: until next week, we just don’t know.
  • Posts: 516
    Minion wrote: »
    For all we know it will be revealed Madeleine Swann is a cover and her real name is Tracy, which would make a lot of these arguments moot. Point is: until next week, we just don’t know.

    I think the name choice is entirely intentional — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swan_maiden
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    Swann is Swann and Tracy is Tracy, even tho it’s clear that Swann is designed to be “Craig’s Tracy”. The fact that Zimmer decided to pay a little homage to both WHATTITW and the OHMSS theme is just because that movie and NTTD are both love stories so the connection is clear. Swann and Bond, on the other hand, have their own new theme, a tragic and melancholy theme, and it’s NTTD that is reprised in 4 key tracks.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,659
    matt_u wrote: »
    Swann is Swann and Tracy is Tracy, even tho it’s clear that Swann is designed to be “Craig’s Tracy”. The fact that Zimmer decided to pay a little homage to both WHATTITW and the OHMSS theme is just because that movie and NTTD are both love stories so the connection is clear. Swann and Bond, on the other hand, have their own new theme, a tragic and melancholy theme, and it’s NTTD that is reprised in 4 key tracks.

    I agree. Madeleine isn't Tracy but she's probably the closest thing to Tracy in this era. I like what Zimmer does with the WHATTITW theme but I'm not reading too much in it either. Lest we forget, Serra toyed with the GF theme in his GE score and there was no connection there either.
  • NickThunderballsNickThunderballs Australia
    Posts: 133
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    Swann is Swann and Tracy is Tracy, even tho it’s clear that Swann is designed to be “Craig’s Tracy”. The fact that Zimmer decided to pay a little homage to both WHATTITW and the OHMSS theme is just because that movie and NTTD are both love stories so the connection is clear. Swann and Bond, on the other hand, have their own new theme, a tragic and melancholy theme, and it’s NTTD that is reprised in 4 key tracks.

    I agree. Madeleine isn't Tracy but she's probably the closest thing to Tracy in this era. I like what Zimmer does with the WHATTITW theme but I'm not reading too much in it either. Lest we forget, Serra toyed with the GF theme in his GE score and there was no connection there either.

    What track does Serra do that in? Curious as I haven't ever picked up on that before
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,696
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    Swann is Swann and Tracy is Tracy, even tho it’s clear that Swann is designed to be “Craig’s Tracy”. The fact that Zimmer decided to pay a little homage to both WHATTITW and the OHMSS theme is just because that movie and NTTD are both love stories so the connection is clear. Swann and Bond, on the other hand, have their own new theme, a tragic and melancholy theme, and it’s NTTD that is reprised in 4 key tracks.

    I agree. Madeleine isn't Tracy but she's probably the closest thing to Tracy in this era. I like what Zimmer does with the WHATTITW theme but I'm not reading too much in it either. Lest we forget, Serra toyed with the GF theme in his GE score and there was no connection there either.

    What track does Serra do that in? Curious as I haven't ever picked up on that before

    The brassy hook in The Goldeneye Overture.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2021 Posts: 15,186
    Matt007 wrote: »
    FourDot wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    WHATTITW is a personal theme associated with Bond's relationship and love of Tracy and ultimately her tragic death. Doesn't sit with me with another Bond character.

    In the Craig timeline, there was no Tracy.

    How do you know? In the Craig era we jump from new Bond to very, very seasoned Bond. The Aston with the machine guns and ejector button could prove that he once fought Goldfinger and could have been married to Tracy. Just because he never mentioned her does not mean she could not be a part of this Bond's timeline. What if during the drive though Matera there is something that reminds him and us of Tracy?

    If something that significant had happened to him between films there would be some sort of reference to it. Also, Madeleine and Tracy are so similar it'd be a little redundant to have both in one timeline. I guess it's just head canon but I've always just believed that Bond had numerous nondescript missions between QoS and Skyfall that had nothing to do with the first 20 films.

    But what Eon has done with the inclusion of the DB-5 from Goldfinger, which is a different one than the one he won in Casino Royal, is solidly indicate that the Goldfinger mission DID occure, therefore, one can assume, OHMSS has occurred as well. Just because Bond never mentions Tracy in DAF don't mean it didn't happen.

    Fukunaga says its the same as the CR one.

    Good enough for me.

    Is it not left hand drive in CR

    Cars can be converted to swap driving position. If we can believe the one in Spectre was a rebuilt version of the same one that got blown up in Skyfall, then I'm sure Q is able to swap a driving position! :)

    delfloria wrote: »
    Or it could mean that the DB5 in SF was a relic of Q Branch from the 60s, well before Craig Bond’s time.

    So you prescribe to the "James Bond" is just a code name theory? End of conversation.

    No, that’s not what I was alluding. My point was that the 00 section had existed since WWII and there had been many 00 agents in the 20th century, before Bond became one himself. The DB5 may have been used by a 00 in the past which is why Q Branch had it in storage.

    Yes, my own personal version of the story (just for fun) is that Bond won the car but when he was drafted back onto the mission everything he did in the Bahamas was post-rationalised as part of that official MI6 mission, therefore the car became MI6 property (although as they have no particular use for it it was kind of a grey area and just seen as Bond's car)- Bond was happy with that because it meant they paid to have it shipped back to the UK. Bond was also friendly with a fellow car enthusiast in Q Branch and got him to swap over the driving position. And then also as a favour he popped some gadgets in from an old Q car they had lying around the place! :)

    delfloria wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    I think some of you overthink things a bit too much. They're just movies. We are all passionate about them, but, in the end, the music being there is all about that very same passion. And let's not forget that in OHMSS the man said "this never happened to the other fella", so it's all a bit meta, isn't it? Bond is the most meta series in cinema history. And if we're interested to know how the hell that works, let's all read Umberto Eco's essays on it, shall we ;) In the meantime, just learn to enjoy the ride. Yes, Bond's marriage theme from OHMSS shows up in NTTD. If we embrace Bond being both different and the same character throughout time, surely we can embrace this idea.

    I hope everyone realizes this conversation has been done with a bit of tongue in cheek. The bottom line is we all hope to get as much enjoyment out of NTTD as we possibly can, unless you happen to be a member of "CraigIsNotBond.com". Are those people still around?

    Yes I think it's a bit silly not to realise that half of these conversations are just had for fun: this is a 'safe space' where we can all be geeks together: telling us that we're overthinking it is kind of missing the point a bit! :)


  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,186




    DarthDimi wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    Swann is Swann and Tracy is Tracy, even tho it’s clear that Swann is designed to be “Craig’s Tracy”. The fact that Zimmer decided to pay a little homage to both WHATTITW and the OHMSS theme is just because that movie and NTTD are both love stories so the connection is clear. Swann and Bond, on the other hand, have their own new theme, a tragic and melancholy theme, and it’s NTTD that is reprised in 4 key tracks.

    I agree. Madeleine isn't Tracy but she's probably the closest thing to Tracy in this era. I like what Zimmer does with the WHATTITW theme but I'm not reading too much in it either. Lest we forget, Serra toyed with the GF theme in his GE score and there was no connection there either.

    Yes I've always thought that his gunbarrel was a GF sample for the fanfare too, but it's hard to prove.
    Also I thought it popped up as a sample in the Rome chase in Spectre too: there's an echoey appearance of it which sounds very similar.
  • Zekidk wrote: »
    Matt007 wrote: »
    DCisared wrote: »
    It’s all manipulative, sure, but some are more lazy than others. Just because Zimmer throws a Barry quote doesn’t mean it’s automatically a great choice.

    This is what recent Star Wars had been criticized for its use of Easter eggs as if to nudge fans “YOU SEE THAT???”

    Logic is flawed mate. I take it you hate any film that isn't DR NO using the Bond theme then?

    The Bond theme and a song that’s only been used for a single film over 50 years ago isn’t the same.

    The only other time that’s happened was with Barry’s very brief nod to LALD when Pepper notices Bond in TMWTGG.

    When bond goes through his desk in OHMSS we get bits of everything. Mango tree, FRWL, thunder ball…
    But we are shown Honey's knife and Grant's watch to be reminded of those characters.
    We need either a character, a location or an event to connect emotionally. None of these are present when Bond and Madeleine are driving towards Matera. What exactly are we suppose to be reminded of? So I perfectly understand why some fans have an issue with this.

    It's fan service just like bringing Dench back as a different M for the Craig era, the db5 returning in CR, SF & NTTD and now also the v8. Personally, I don't let these things bother me. The story, character and plot are far more important.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,696


    What you hear at 2:42 is from Goldfinger.
  • NickThunderballsNickThunderballs Australia
    Posts: 133


    What you hear at 2:42 is from Goldfinger.

    I thought it would haven been 2:45...? i.e Start of GF Gunbarrel
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited September 2021 Posts: 1,696


    What you hear at 2:42 is from Goldfinger.

    I thought it would haven been 2:45...? i.e Start of GF Gunbarrel

    Oh, that too, I guess. But the 2:42 bit is the second part of the opening hook to the GF theme. Like how LTK used the first part in its theme song.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,186
    Yes I suppose it is; never quite registered that before. It's the response to the call of the opening two big notes.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,028
    Meanwhile wrote: »
    But the Barry quotes belong to other characters and eras, like Tracy Bond of course. I like Madeleine, but she’s no Countess Theresa - just the same as Vesper wasn’t, Kara, so on. And OHMSS is a stellar title song, not a boring low-key thing to bum when presumably Blofeld is on screen. If I’m wrong and it really works, I’ll eat my words of course. Just going from my listening experience.

    That’s my thing. Prior to this, I have always gone with the mindset that Madeleine shouldn’t be compared to Tracy because she should stand on her own, and Newman even gave her a lovely theme in SP that could have been brought back and solidified as something belonging to her, much like Vesper’s theme carried over from CR to QOS. Just quoting the Armstrong song is lazy low hanging fruit.

    I do think if the OHMSS theme had to make a comeback, it should have been for SP, as the trailers indicated. So it’s weird that we only just get it NOW on the last stretch when Blofeld is in prison.

    We're in a sampler/repurposing/TikTok music world now. Barry wasn't.

    I'm just happy that there's *any* sort of melody in the score after the last two cacaphonous ones.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,186
    echo wrote: »
    Meanwhile wrote: »
    But the Barry quotes belong to other characters and eras, like Tracy Bond of course. I like Madeleine, but she’s no Countess Theresa - just the same as Vesper wasn’t, Kara, so on. And OHMSS is a stellar title song, not a boring low-key thing to bum when presumably Blofeld is on screen. If I’m wrong and it really works, I’ll eat my words of course. Just going from my listening experience.

    That’s my thing. Prior to this, I have always gone with the mindset that Madeleine shouldn’t be compared to Tracy because she should stand on her own, and Newman even gave her a lovely theme in SP that could have been brought back and solidified as something belonging to her, much like Vesper’s theme carried over from CR to QOS. Just quoting the Armstrong song is lazy low hanging fruit.

    I do think if the OHMSS theme had to make a comeback, it should have been for SP, as the trailers indicated. So it’s weird that we only just get it NOW on the last stretch when Blofeld is in prison.

    We're in a sampler/repurposing/TikTok music world now. Barry wasn't.

    I'm just happy that there's *any* sort of melody in the score after the last two cacaphonous ones.

    There's plenty of melody in the last two, don't be silly. Or rather there's a similar amount to in NTTD: this isn't a score for folks who want every cue to be a lovely whistlable tune. If you like lots of percussion drumming away, Hans is your guy.


  • What you hear at 2:42 is from Goldfinger.

    Getting a little muso here, but I don't think that's from Goldfinger. There is a very subtle difference to the chord; Goldfinger uses a major third whereas this sample uses a minor third (i.e. the third is flattened).

    It certainly evokes memories of Goldfinger though, which is probably what Serra set out to do.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,028
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Yes, I’m very relieved to see the original route as well. I don’t think Madeleine’s dying in this movie. While there are connections to the old movies, I think they’re still trying many new things to differentiate it more than enough.

    If I had to guess, Bond and Madeleine get back together in the end. I'm not seeing any other love interest in the film for Bond: Nomi and Paloma seem all business.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,029
    I think they’re definitely revisiting the idea of Bond reuniting with a former flame. Unlike Paris Carver, Madeleine won’t die.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,696


    What you hear at 2:42 is from Goldfinger.

    Getting a little muso here, but I don't think that's from Goldfinger. There is a very subtle difference to the chord; Goldfinger uses a major third whereas this sample uses a minor third (i.e. the third is flattened).

    It certainly evokes memories of Goldfinger though, which is probably what Serra set out to do.

    You mean a chord in the three-note top line hooky bit? Or what mtm better described as the response to the call of the opening two big notes (in Goldfinger)? I'm non-muso enough that I wasn't sure if they were chords at all! :)) Which one is different, or is it all three?
  • edited September 2021 Posts: 3,169
    echo wrote: »
    Meanwhile wrote: »
    But the Barry quotes belong to other characters and eras, like Tracy Bond of course. I like Madeleine, but she’s no Countess Theresa - just the same as Vesper wasn’t, Kara, so on. And OHMSS is a stellar title song, not a boring low-key thing to bum when presumably Blofeld is on screen. If I’m wrong and it really works, I’ll eat my words of course. Just going from my listening experience.

    That’s my thing. Prior to this, I have always gone with the mindset that Madeleine shouldn’t be compared to Tracy because she should stand on her own, and Newman even gave her a lovely theme in SP that could have been brought back and solidified as something belonging to her, much like Vesper’s theme carried over from CR to QOS. Just quoting the Armstrong song is lazy low hanging fruit.

    I do think if the OHMSS theme had to make a comeback, it should have been for SP, as the trailers indicated. So it’s weird that we only just get it NOW on the last stretch when Blofeld is in prison.

    I'm just happy that there's *any* sort of melody in the score after the last two cacaphonous ones.
    Newman was copying Zimmer. They both have (great) melodies in the more quiet tracks, but both suffer - IMO - from the lack of melodies in the fast actions cues, where it's mostly drums and sound bites dominating. Arnold did this better. 'White Knight/ 'Backseat Driver' etc had clear melodies for instance.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    I've not heard Zimmer's score, I'm still waiting for it on October 1st, but I would like to think Zimmer is a better action composer than Newman.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,029
    Melody isn’t everything.
  • H
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    I've not heard Zimmer's score, I'm still waiting for it on October 1st, but I would like to think Zimmer is a better action composer than Newman.

    I'd say so. Newman seemed to be attempting to channel Zimmer in some of his action cues but nothing is quite like the real thing.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited September 2021 Posts: 4,247
    H
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    I've not heard Zimmer's score, I'm still waiting for it on October 1st, but I would like to think Zimmer is a better action composer than Newman.

    I'd say so. Newman seemed to be attempting to channel Zimmer in some of his action cues but nothing is quite like the real thing.

    Exactly. And I think Newman's best Bond action cues are Silhouette, Enquiry & The Moors. I love his romantic and quieter moments of course. Tracks like Old Dog, New Tricks are ultra-Bondian and possibly his best Bond cue. Action simply isn't his forte and it shows. Although, I think SF is where his action music works than SP. He went for a more travelogue and romantic sound in SP and it worked...but he couldn't just nail the action scenes. And since Mendes wasn't a fan of Arnold, he should have at least keep Paul Epworth to assist Newman and we would have had more of Adele's theme in the score and judging from the song's instrumental, Epworth can do good action.
  • Posts: 501
    I think Newman's action cues are good in Skyfall. Not so much in Spectre. In part, because they are somewhat recycled from the previous film. So far, Skyfall is my favourite non-Barry Bond score. I won't rate Zimmer's work until I see how it works with the picture itself.

    I have to admit I was afraid of what Zimmer would do. As far as I've seen, or rather heard, I needn't fear. However, as said before, I won't fully rate the score until I watch the flick.
  • edited September 2021 Posts: 1,314
    Some of Newman’s cues are awesome.

    Skyfall:
    - Bond approaching the casino by boat
    - bond and severine on the boat approaching the abandoned island

    Spectre
    - bond and Maddy in the rolls Royce approaching the base
    - The rome sequence in front of the Vatican
    - bond approaching mr whites house

    Mainly I think he seems to be good at melodic atmosphere and anticipation. I don’t like the climax in the Thames with the electric guitar.
  • Posts: 501
    Matt007 wrote: »
    Some of Newman’s cues are awesome.

    Skyfall:
    - Bond approaching the casino by boat
    - bond and severine on the boat approaching the abandoned island

    Spectre
    - bond and Maddy in the rolls Royce approaching the base
    - The rome sequence in front of the Vatican
    - bond approaching mr whites house

    Mainly I think he seems to be good at melodic atmosphere and anticipation. I don’t like the climax in the Thames with the electric guitar.

    Grand Bazaar, Istanbul is a brilliant atmospheric/action cue. Tennyson/Enquiry is brilliant. The action cues in Skyfall, the manor itself, are also brilliant.

    It's true that, especially with Snow Plane, Newman seems to have run out of ideas and he tries to channel his inner Zimmer, which ends up being his worse action cue, IMHO.
  • Posts: 2,086
    @0iker0 ”Snow Plane” needed a large injection of the bond theme.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    If the cues from SF didn't reappear in SP, Newman would have used more of the travelogue theme that appears in Crows Klinik, Secret Room & Safe house in different renditions to suit action scenes as well, as heard at the beginning of Safe House...then more of Madeleine's theme as well...since these were the new themes he created and his SP score would have been fondly remembered.
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