Reunion with Death - early third Dalton treatment?

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  • Posts: 13,656
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah he was so much better in the Rocketeer. He seemed to have more charisma.

    I think there was tremendous pression on him, not only for playing Bond, but for not being Brosnan. It might have played a role regarding how he came off as Bond. Still, why make him such an incapable fighter?
  • edited February 2021 Posts: 584
    The folks who complain that “Dalton couldn’t fight” are usually the same ones who are perfectly okay with Craig’s CGI-ed head floating around on a stuntman’s body when Bond jumps a fence.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 4,801
    Say what you will about Dalton, but he's arguably the only actor who got the Bond character perfectly from the jump.
  • DragonpolDragonpol Writer @ http://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 15,409
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    The folks who complain that “Dalton couldn’t fight” are usually the same ones who are perfectly okay with Craig’s CGI-ed head floating around on a stuntman’s body when Bond jumps a fence.

    Exactly. Well said. What Craig does now Dalton did first -- and better.
  • Posts: 13,705
    I never minded Tim's fighting skills. The choreography has improved since then, especially by CR. Many of Tim's fight scenes I tend to consider more stunt work, than a good old fashioned fisticuffs sequence.
    If I had one pet peeve, is that Tim made some odd facial expressions during his fights.
    The-Living-Daylights-659.jpg
    The-Living-Daylights-787.jpg

  • Posts: 4,812
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I never minded Tim's fighting skills. The choreography has improved since then, especially by CR. Many of Tim's fight scenes I tend to consider more stunt work, than a good old fashioned fisticuffs sequence.
    If I had one pet peeve, is that Tim made some odd facial expressions during his fights.
    The-Living-Daylights-659.jpg
    The-Living-Daylights-787.jpg

    Like to see what kind of face you'd make with a cargo net over your mush!! 😂😂
  • Posts: 4,812
    echo wrote: »
    Say what you will about Dalton, but he's arguably the only actor who got the Bond character perfectly from the jump.

    +1000
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited February 2021 Posts: 10,268
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    The folks who complain that “Dalton couldn’t fight” are usually the same ones who are perfectly okay with Craig’s CGI-ed head floating around on a stuntman’s body when Bond jumps a fence.


    When does Bond jump a fence?
    Is there a problem with stuntmen doing stunts? Dalton wasn't actually waterskiing behind that plane either.
    echo wrote: »
    Say what you will about Dalton, but he's arguably the only actor who got the Bond character perfectly from the jump.

    I don't think he ever got it, that's what I was saying. There's no swagger.
    In terms of getting it right straight off the bat, I'd say there's Craig and, funnily enough, Brosnan. I think even Connery is a bit too much of a git in Dr No, although obviously people loved it.
  • Posts: 13,705
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I never minded Tim's fighting skills. The choreography has improved since then, especially by CR. Many of Tim's fight scenes I tend to consider more stunt work, than a good old fashioned fisticuffs sequence.
    If I had one pet peeve, is that Tim made some odd facial expressions during his fights.
    The-Living-Daylights-659.jpg
    The-Living-Daylights-787.jpg

    Like to see what kind of face you'd make with a cargo net over your mush!! 😂😂

    I'm almost 100% positive I'd do my best to emulate Timothy's facial expression.
    Anytime I'm pulling some sort of lever I do my version of Tim's face from TLD when he sends Koskov through the pipeline.
  • mattjoesmattjoes What is the BUDANAYCHUR?
    Posts: 5,174
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I never minded Tim's fighting skills. The choreography has improved since then, especially by CR. Many of Tim's fight scenes I tend to consider more stunt work, than a good old fashioned fisticuffs sequence.
    If I had one pet peeve, is that Tim made some odd facial expressions during his fights.
    The-Living-Daylights-659.jpg
    The-Living-Daylights-787.jpg

    Like to see what kind of face you'd make with a cargo net over your mush!! 😂😂

    I'm almost 100% positive I'd do my best to emulate Timothy's facial expression.
    Anytime I'm pulling some sort of lever I do my version of Tim's face from TLD when he sends Koskov through the pipeline.

    Haha, I love that! He really makes it look like it's critical he gets it right.
  • edited February 2021 Posts: 584
    To get this thread back on topic, the new episode of the James Bond & Friends podcast has The Lost Adventures of James Bond author Mark Edlitz as a guest, and there are some brief comments about Reunion with Death and the Bond 17 story treatments/script, which are covered in Edlitz's book.

    Oddly enough, host James Page mentions that he's "intrigued" by Reunion with Death but makes no mention of the fact that the magazine he co-founded, MI6 Confidential, did a whole article on the treatment over three years ago!

    MI6 Confidential also covered the Ruggiero/Wilson treatment back in August 2014. Both issues (#26 and #43) are out of print.
  • Posts: 1,758
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    The folks who complain that “Dalton couldn’t fight” are usually the same ones who are perfectly okay with Craig’s CGI-ed head floating around on a stuntman’s body when Bond jumps a fence.

    I don't get the criticism of Dalton's fighting either. Didn't he say in numerous interviews he was trying to make Bond less of a superman and more human, so why would he make it look too easy? I recall him having a few moments where he may have been surprised or concerned in action sequences, but never wimpy. That punch he lays on Necros on the net was a good example as was the headbutt he puts on the guy in the jeep at the start of TLD. The laying out of the guard at Krest's warehouse was another good physical moment.

    For all Craig's physical presence, I don't think he looked particularly tough taking on the enraged Greene in QoS and was clearly outmatched and alarmed against Hinx in SP and didn't look particularly good in the Comodo dragon pit fight in SF.

  • Posts: 111
    The editing throughout the 80’s films is a bit looser and not as tight as it probably should be-TLD seems to be the exception to this. I think this is why you glimpse the stunt doubles more readily but there is a certain naturalism present that hasn’t been seen since.
    What makes TND work and how it is able to gloss over the story shortcomings is how tightly edited it is and Spottiswoode was the perfect man for the job after being Peckinpah’s editor for years.

    Cubby likely wouldn’t have gone for a bigger director name but it would be really interesting to get a definitive list of everyone who really was approached or to get more information. What if Young had really considered FYEO or Hunt for example?
  • edited February 2021 Posts: 584
    Cubby likely wouldn’t have gone for a bigger director name but it would be really interesting to get a definitive list of everyone who really was approached or to get more information. What if Young had really considered FYEO or Hunt for example?

    This came up in another thread. I don't remember where the following bit of info originates, but I've read that John Hough was originally supposed to direct FYEO and got far enough along in pre-production to cast Lynn-Holly Johnson, who he worked with on THE WATCHER IN THE WOODS. If you look at his filmography, it would fit, seeing as there's a gap between WATCHER (1980) and INCUBUS (1982).

    Hough is a really interesting choice and a solid action director judging by his work on the riveting DIRTY MARY, CRAZY LARRY.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe JenaMaloneforBond.comModerator
    Posts: 12,490
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    Cubby likely wouldn’t have gone for a bigger director name but it would be really interesting to get a definitive list of everyone who really was approached or to get more information. What if Young had really considered FYEO or Hunt for example?

    This came up in another thread. I don't remember where the following bit of info originates, but I've read that John Hough was originally supposed to direct FYEO and got far enough along in pre-production to cast Lynn-Holly Johnson, who he worked with on THE WATCHER IN THE WOODS. If you look at his filmography, it would fit, seeing as there's a gap between WATCHER (1980) and INCUBUS (1982).

    Hough is a really interesting choice and a solid action director judging by his work on the riveting DIRTY MARY, CRAZY LARRY.

    If John Hough had directed FYEO, it's highly likely that David Warbeck would have taken over from Moore. In his book, Warbeck takes about Hough being replaced by Glen, and Warbeck screentesting for Bond and when meeting Gleb, not seeing eye-to-eye with him in regards the kind of humor that would be right for Bond. As a fan of Warbeck, to me, it's a big shame that he was never cast as Bond.

    RE Dalton: I think some are over-egging the "swagger". Dalton's Bond is more inspired from the Bond of the books, rather than the Terrance Young movie Bond. Though I do think that it is a shame that the best fight of the Dalton era (which is also one of the best fights in the series save for one or two others), doesn't even feature Bond!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited February 2021 Posts: 10,268
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    The folks who complain that “Dalton couldn’t fight” are usually the same ones who are perfectly okay with Craig’s CGI-ed head floating around on a stuntman’s body when Bond jumps a fence.

    I don't get the criticism of Dalton's fighting either. Didn't he say in numerous interviews he was trying to make Bond less of a superman and more human, so why would he make it look too easy? I recall him having a few moments where he may have been surprised or concerned in action sequences, but never wimpy.

    It's not about being wimpy, it's more he's not very convincing. The LTK bar fight just feels very staged.
    echo wrote: »
    For all Craig's physical presence, I don't think he looked particularly tough taking on the enraged Greene in QoS and was clearly outmatched and alarmed against Hinx in SP and didn't look particularly good in the Comodo dragon pit fight in SF.

    Yes, he gets outclassed by bigger guys sometimes; that's sort of what happens with Bond. Oddjob, Jaws etc.

    The editing throughout the 80’s films is a bit looser and not as tight as it probably should be-TLD seems to be the exception to this. I think this is why you glimpse the stunt doubles more readily but there is a certain naturalism present that hasn’t been seen since.
    What makes TND work and how it is able to gloss over the story shortcomings is how tightly edited it is and Spottiswoode was the perfect man for the job after being Peckinpah’s editor for years.

    It's a good point; too easy to forget how important editors are to making a movie.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 10,268
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    Cubby likely wouldn’t have gone for a bigger director name but it would be really interesting to get a definitive list of everyone who really was approached or to get more information. What if Young had really considered FYEO or Hunt for example?

    This came up in another thread. I don't remember where the following bit of info originates, but I've read that John Hough was originally supposed to direct FYEO and got far enough along in pre-production to cast Lynn-Holly Johnson, who he worked with on THE WATCHER IN THE WOODS. If you look at his filmography, it would fit, seeing as there's a gap between WATCHER (1980) and INCUBUS (1982).

    Hough is a really interesting choice and a solid action director judging by his work on the riveting DIRTY MARY, CRAZY LARRY.

    If John Hough had directed FYEO, it's highly likely that David Warbeck would have taken over from Moore. In his book, Warbeck takes about Hough being replaced by Glen, and Warbeck screentesting for Bond and when meeting Gleb, not seeing eye-to-eye with him in regards the kind of humor that would be right for Bond. As a fan of Warbeck, to me, it's a big shame that he was never cast as Bond.

    That's a very interesting thought. I'm not sure I've seen much of his stuff, what would you recommend?
    RE Dalton: I think some are over-egging the "swagger". Dalton's Bond is more inspired from the Bond of the books, rather than the Terrance Young movie Bond.

    Maybe that's true, but that's still a bit of a misjudgement. People go to a Bond movie to see the Bond they know- the Bond in the books wasn't driving an Aston Martin that shot missiles! :) And an essential part of the character is that he's hugely self-assured, you can't really take that away. When the Craig version of Bond was being created, in a movie based on an actual Fleming novel, they gave him the book-Bond traits but also didn't forget what made the character such a success on the big screen. That's why I think it's wrong to say that Dalton did it first, because he didn't do the same thing.
  • edited February 2021 Posts: 584
    mtm wrote: »
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    Cubby likely wouldn’t have gone for a bigger director name but it would be really interesting to get a definitive list of everyone who really was approached or to get more information. What if Young had really considered FYEO or Hunt for example?

    This came up in another thread. I don't remember where the following bit of info originates, but I've read that John Hough was originally supposed to direct FYEO and got far enough along in pre-production to cast Lynn-Holly Johnson, who he worked with on THE WATCHER IN THE WOODS. If you look at his filmography, it would fit, seeing as there's a gap between WATCHER (1980) and INCUBUS (1982).

    Hough is a really interesting choice and a solid action director judging by his work on the riveting DIRTY MARY, CRAZY LARRY.

    If John Hough had directed FYEO, it's highly likely that David Warbeck would have taken over from Moore. In his book, Warbeck takes about Hough being replaced by Glen, and Warbeck screentesting for Bond and when meeting Gleb, not seeing eye-to-eye with him in regards the kind of humor that would be right for Bond. As a fan of Warbeck, to me, it's a big shame that he was never cast as Bond.

    That's a very interesting thought. I'm not sure I've seen much of his stuff, what would you recommend?

    Warbeck is probably best known (as least, in the States) as a dependable leading man in Italian genre films. He was the detective hero of Lucio Fulci's horror films THE BEYOND and THE BLACK CAT, but if you want to see him in more action-oriented roles, check out his films with Antonio Margheriti: THE LAST HUNTER (an entertaining exploitation rip-off of APOCALYPSE NOW), ARK OF THE SUN GOD (an Indiana Jones imitation, but also fun), HUNTERS OF THE GOLDEN COBRA, and TIGER JOE. He worked with Hough twice (in WOLFSHEAD and TWINS OF EVIL) and with Martin Campbell in THE SEX THIEF.

    Here's more info on Hough and Warbeck's involvement with FYEO:

    https://debrief.commanderbond.net/topic/53233-back-to-back-bonds-the-warbeck-story/

    It sounds like EON was planning to shoot two Bond movies back-to-back with different directors and lead actors (?!) Hard to believe. Hough finally left because he refused to work with Moore.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe JenaMaloneforBond.comModerator
    edited February 2021 Posts: 12,490
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    Cubby likely wouldn’t have gone for a bigger director name but it would be really interesting to get a definitive list of everyone who really was approached or to get more information. What if Young had really considered FYEO or Hunt for example?

    This came up in another thread. I don't remember where the following bit of info originates, but I've read that John Hough was originally supposed to direct FYEO and got far enough along in pre-production to cast Lynn-Holly Johnson, who he worked with on THE WATCHER IN THE WOODS. If you look at his filmography, it would fit, seeing as there's a gap between WATCHER (1980) and INCUBUS (1982).

    Hough is a really interesting choice and a solid action director judging by his work on the riveting DIRTY MARY, CRAZY LARRY.

    If John Hough had directed FYEO, it's highly likely that David Warbeck would have taken over from Moore. In his book, Warbeck takes about Hough being replaced by Glen, and Warbeck screentesting for Bond and when meeting Gleb, not seeing eye-to-eye with him in regards the kind of humor that would be right for Bond. As a fan of Warbeck, to me, it's a big shame that he was never cast as Bond.

    That's a very interesting thought. I'm not sure I've seen much of his stuff, what would you recommend?

    Warbeck is probably best known (as least, in the States) as a dependable leading man in Italian genre films. He was the detective hero of Lucio Fulci's horror films THE BEYOND and THE BLACK CAT, but if you want to see him in more action-oriented roles, check out his films with Antonio Margheriti: THE LAST HUNTER (an entertaining exploitation rip-off of APOCALYPSE NOW), ARK OF THE SUN GOD (an Indiana Jones imitation, but also fun), HUNTERS OF THE GOLDEN COBRA, and TIGER JOE. He worked with Hough twice (in WOLFSHEAD and TWINS OF EVIL) and with Martin Campbell in THE SEX THIEF.

    Here's more info on Hough and Warbeck's involvement with FYEO:

    https://debrief.commanderbond.net/topic/53233-back-to-back-bonds-the-warbeck-story/

    It sounds like EON was planning to shoot two Bond movies back-to-back with different directors and lead actors (?!) Hard to believe. Hough finally left because he refused to work with Moore.

    This, basically. =D>

    I would also add in a lesser known Warbeck film, Panic (1982) wherin Warbeck plays the aptly named Captain Kirk. Unlike his work with Fulci, it's not regarded as a genre classic, but is worth a look to see what an immesely charismatic lead Warbeck was. That is, if you can find it anywhere. To my knowledge, it has never had a release, though it was on Youtube, I don't know if it still is.
  • Posts: 13,656
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    The folks who complain that “Dalton couldn’t fight” are usually the same ones who are perfectly okay with Craig’s CGI-ed head floating around on a stuntman’s body when Bond jumps a fence.

    1)No. 2)In the end I don't care if it's the actor or the stuntman, I just want Bond to be depicted as a capable fighter.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 10,268
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    Cubby likely wouldn’t have gone for a bigger director name but it would be really interesting to get a definitive list of everyone who really was approached or to get more information. What if Young had really considered FYEO or Hunt for example?

    This came up in another thread. I don't remember where the following bit of info originates, but I've read that John Hough was originally supposed to direct FYEO and got far enough along in pre-production to cast Lynn-Holly Johnson, who he worked with on THE WATCHER IN THE WOODS. If you look at his filmography, it would fit, seeing as there's a gap between WATCHER (1980) and INCUBUS (1982).

    Hough is a really interesting choice and a solid action director judging by his work on the riveting DIRTY MARY, CRAZY LARRY.

    If John Hough had directed FYEO, it's highly likely that David Warbeck would have taken over from Moore. In his book, Warbeck takes about Hough being replaced by Glen, and Warbeck screentesting for Bond and when meeting Gleb, not seeing eye-to-eye with him in regards the kind of humor that would be right for Bond. As a fan of Warbeck, to me, it's a big shame that he was never cast as Bond.

    That's a very interesting thought. I'm not sure I've seen much of his stuff, what would you recommend?

    Warbeck is probably best known (as least, in the States) as a dependable leading man in Italian genre films. He was the detective hero of Lucio Fulci's horror films THE BEYOND and THE BLACK CAT, but if you want to see him in more action-oriented roles, check out his films with Antonio Margheriti: THE LAST HUNTER (an entertaining exploitation rip-off of APOCALYPSE NOW), ARK OF THE SUN GOD (an Indiana Jones imitation, but also fun), HUNTERS OF THE GOLDEN COBRA, and TIGER JOE. He worked with Hough twice (in WOLFSHEAD and TWINS OF EVIL) and with Martin Campbell in THE SEX THIEF.

    Here's more info on Hough and Warbeck's involvement with FYEO:

    https://debrief.commanderbond.net/topic/53233-back-to-back-bonds-the-warbeck-story/

    It sounds like EON was planning to shoot two Bond movies back-to-back with different directors and lead actors (?!) Hard to believe. Hough finally left because he refused to work with Moore.

    Thanks, very interesting. Some of that certainly sounds a bit whiffy, but I'm sure there's a grounding in truth.
  • ChriskarrChriskarr Spain
    edited February 17 Posts: 45
    In The James Bond Archives by Taschen, Jamie Russell says the following:
    "Work on "Bond 17" had begun in 1990 with a series of treatments and a first-draft screenplay co-written by Michael G. Wilson dated April 2, 1991."
    Does anyone know what script are referring to? Is there another draft script dated April 2, 1991?
    Because the dates that are known so far are the script draft of May 10, 1990 and the script draft of January 2, 1991.
  • Posts: 600
    Chriskarr wrote: »
    Does anyone know what script are referring to? Is there another draft script dated April 2, 1991?
    Maybe it's a mistake and it's the same script that was dated the same day of January of the same year? Also, I'm curious to know: beside Alfonse Ruggiero, Davis and Osborne, Willard Huyck and Gloria Katz were also in talks to write a draft, did this materialize?
  • Posts: 989
    Timothy Dalton circa 1991. We were robbed, people :’(

    008870d273d3e24864b5f211f38b1abb--timothy-dalton-love-letters.jpg

    And c.2002:

    1f0fe252e97c2c899083c2e1813ce7c2.jpg

    The 90's could have belonged to T-Dalts.

    Only if they had provided him with a decent script and interesting direction and cinematography, and not the yawn-inducing production which surrounded him in his two films.
  • DeathToSpies84DeathToSpies84 Haydock, England
    Posts: 222
    Timothy Dalton circa 1991. We were robbed, people :’(

    008870d273d3e24864b5f211f38b1abb--timothy-dalton-love-letters.jpg

    We were 🙁
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited February 22 Posts: 36,315
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I never minded Tim's fighting skills. The choreography has improved since then, especially by CR. Many of Tim's fight scenes I tend to consider more stunt work, than a good old fashioned fisticuffs sequence.
    If I had one pet peeve, is that Tim made some odd facial expressions during his fights.
    The-Living-Daylights-659.jpg
    The-Living-Daylights-787.jpg

    To be fair, folks have said the same about Brosnan's "pain face," but I bet you could pause at several moments throughout the other actors' fight scenes and find equally goofy faces (and Dalton's worst face for me is during that bar fight in LTK, after he's punched right in the face).

    Agreed on the general assessment of Dalton, damn shame he didn't get a third installment at least. What a waste.
  • mattjoesmattjoes What is the BUDANAYCHUR?
    Posts: 5,174
    Whenever I'm being choked in real life, I always look like this.

    3afdf158e8a46728fcd096637c9a29dd.jpg
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 36,315
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Whenever I'm being choked in real life, I always look like this.

    3afdf158e8a46728fcd096637c9a29dd.jpg

    It's best to look like that all the time, regardless of the situation.
  • Posts: 13,705
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Whenever I'm being choked in real life, I always look like this.

    3afdf158e8a46728fcd096637c9a29dd.jpg

    Great shot of Sir Roger. I had this poster on my bedroom door when I was a kid. It emphasized to anyone walking by that this high school student was a suave debonair gentleman.
    Inside that door I had photos of Bond girls plastering my walls.

    Getting back to Tim though, my favorite Dalton facial expression is when he pulls the lever that sends Koskov down the pipeline.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 1,057
    Timothy Dalton IS James Bond!
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