It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
^ Back to Top
The MI6 Community is unofficial and in no way associated or linked with EON Productions, MGM, Sony Pictures, Activision or Ian Fleming Publications. Any views expressed on this website are of the individual members and do not necessarily reflect those of the Community owners. Any video or images displayed in topics on MI6 Community are embedded by users from third party sites and as such MI6 Community and its owners take no responsibility for this material.
James Bond News • James Bond Articles • James Bond Magazine
Comments
My point is not the number of men but the lack of a firm empirical framework to support their statements. I was also trying to show you that even if "they" say it -- "they" meaning men with a no doubt solid scientific reputation -- I still need more to be convinced. That's one of the differences between science and religion. We don't just hang on every word spoken by those we look up to. If we did, not a lot of progress would be made, right?
And I'd say again that atheists do not say there is no God, but that there is no reason to believe in God as you cannot prove a negative, etc. But then I'd be repeating myself and it's not like you are really paying attention. You are closing your ears, doing "la, la, la!", thus going back to your preconception of the term. At least you spell atheist correctly now, I guess.
We've established that you have a tenuous grasp on logic (I'm being generous) but it seems beyond your ken to even understand the meaning of extremely common words now.
When it comes to God and religion atheists don't 'believe' in anything. As we've stated time and again our default position is that we are waiting for proofs that God exist but the current efforts are - at best - fatally flawed to nonexistent. Until someone offers more than an inconsistent hotchpotch of fairy tales then we just sit here twiddling our thumbs.
Those of us on this side are getting RSI from copy/pasting 'the burden of proof lies with those making extraordinary claims to back it up'.
Can you please enlighten me about all the false religions out there. Let's assume there is a God and clearly lots of people believe in him. Can you delineate why your particular faction (I have no idea what you are but I'm going to have a wild punt at Westboro Baptist Church?) is the truth and the others are false? If, as you claim, the bible is a rock solid historical record then why not the Quran? One of you is wrong so where do you get your certainty from? Please tell me you've got more in your locker than that old Polish painter who did an online quantum physics course?
Even if we ignore the nonexistent grammar and questionable syntax I really struggle to fathom how to even attempt to start climbing this, the Mt Everest of inane drivel.
I must have missed that briefing they give when you just pop out the womb instructing you that the whole purpose of life is to make the right punt for after you are dead.
I'm quite reconciled to rotting in a hole in the ground for eternity. There's something quite beautiful about my atoms being absorbed back into the universe so there's no gamble just cold, hard reality. Anyway there's especially not a gamble with my life as unless I've missed the point somewhat isn't religion's whole schtick that deals with what happens after your life ends?
If anything you're the one gambling old son, and wildly so, as there's hundreds, if not thousands, of religions out there so the odds of you with your, let's not beat around the bush here, pretty feeble grasp of the concepts of proof and evidence successfully flailing your way to the correct one seem very long indeed.
If I was you I'd just side with the one that is moving in the right direction with more and more punters backing it - Islam. Christianity is dying on it's arse so it would seem a very brave or stupid person who stuck a monkey on that long shot.
Anyway I do hope your whole religious stance isn't based on Pascal's wager as that always assumes you are backing the right horse. If it turns out Allah romps home by six furlongs you're going to look pretty foolish.
Please do then. Don't just keep promising. I've long given up on @Dragonpol's mountains of evidence ever coming to light but am still holding out hope that your thesis is on its way any minute....
At all times from now on I shall be Pontius Pilate @Dragonpol.
I was merely quoting Alan Partridge there. No need to worry.
No, but I don't have what you chaps are looking for and nothing I bring forward would ever satisfy you so there's little point in my continuing with this thread. It's all just going round in circles now.
That is pretty much what most theists do: make a claim, run away when it's time to back it up.
Not so much circles as an impasse. Yourself and @Risico007 claim to be sitting on mountains of evidence, we are waiting for you to deliver, you don't.
Indeed. Claims have been made from the theist's side but never backed up.
I don't believe that I ever claimed to be sitting on mountains of evidence, but anyway.
I need to find the exact quote but you did say the events of the Bible were proven true beyond doubt, if I'm not mistaken you mentioned archeological evidence.
What I find 'ironic' is that it's never occurred to you that where you're born usually dictates what religion you are. Middle east - Islam, far east - Buddhism, the west - Christianity, etc....well what a massive coincidence!
Could it be that the children of these regions are being indoctrinated? Or do people just wake up one day and say "Ooh I'm feeling the catholic vibe today, I'm off to church!"???
These poor brainwashed children then grow up and as adults suffer from the affliction, 'belief perseverance'.....the tendency to stick with an initial belief even after receiving contradictory or disconfirming information about that belief.
Self delusion at its saddest
Well I rescind any such comment. I can't be bothered with the browbeating, arguing and condescension in this thread any longer. I'm finally leaving it behind.
Allow me Sir:
'Factually correct' quite a bold statement indeed.
You rescind in it the sense that you admit you have no 'evidence' that 'proves it is factually correct' or that you have given up your belief and have come to realise what a load of old cobblers it all is?
Well said Sir.
This pretty much sums it up nicely for me as well.
Valid statement, except for one element: offspring.
Many people are perfectly fine with having their own religion and letting everyone else choose theirs or none at all. Until they have to raise children, that is. Because those children are not "everyone else". Those children are instead "shown the way" by their parents and as such are also deprived of a fair choice to choose their own religion or, again, none at all. A small percentage will at a certain age decide that their parents' religion is rubbish, either because they want to rebel or simply because they see things differently. However, the impact of one's upbringing on one's choices in life cannot be overstated. Religion is allowed to perpetuate for the most part because parents spoonfeed it to their children. The few rebellious or "radicalised" souls or the ones that pick up a whole new religion in school or in books later in life, don't count for much I guess, at least statistically speaking.
So yes, I'm fine with people living their lives on their own terms and never mind what anyone else does; but it's what they teach their children that I'm worried about. I'm confronted with parental indoctrination in school every day. Some students simply tell me I'm lying when I'm talking about the Big Bang simply because I'm contradicting the stuff their parents have taught them. Their parents' teachings somehow overrule mine. These students work from a strange hierarchy which automatically puts their parents in a higher position than me, regardless of the subject matter.
Indeed, my biggest beef with the religious, no matter how peaceful and whatnot, is that many indoctrinate their children, willingly or not, and with the best intentions or not. And in some cases, even the kindest and most pacifist parents, completely against their will, plant the seeds for what might eventually lead to an extremist son or daughter, who might have stayed away from its extremist life decisions if it had never been introduced to its religion in the very first place.
This is one of the things that pisses people off about religion. It simply can't mind its own business.
I just got off the tube at Southwark station and (those of you who live in London will be familiar with this) there was one of those wanky messages on a whiteboard that station staff seem to think makes people forget about their shitty commute. This one read:
'If you seek the person to change your life for the better you need to look above.'
Now call me a curmudgeonly old atheist if you want but is it too much for me to expect to just get from A to B without some arsehole shoving his facile, back of a cereal box, platitudes down my throat at 06.30 in the cocking morning?
Obviously at a place like TfL riddled with stage 3 terminal PCness the guy is probably encouraged to spout his views to the public although naturally if he was a Jedi, a satanist or a Nazi they wouldn't be so accommodating.
Every Sunday morning, I can hear the church bells ringing. Half the town can hear them. How is that legal? If any other non religious organisation built a large tower in the middle of the town, installed a huge bell and rang it on a Sunday morning, Evironmental Health would slap a court order on them wihtin days.
I see religions which radicalize others and as such become dangerous. You know that lot I refer to.
I see very odd groups like Jehovah Witnesses that really do bring their kids up to believe whatever it is they believe. And they spend weekends standing on street corners with beatific smiles on their faces. God knows why (pun intended), but their kids do seem to buy into it.
I see these American shows on TV where these mid western staunchly God fearing country folk are almost insane with religious fervor. But is that the real world?
But on the flip side I've mentioned before that my wife teaches at a Catholic school and my three kids went to it. And none of them were brow beaten about their beliefs and what they should represent. And if you asked any of them why we celebrate Easter they would probably say it's because Jesus laid a chocolate egg. No one in this schools is forced to become God fearing. They are taught about God and Jesus, because whether we like it or not its a subject that still exists, but I don't know any from this school who bash the old Bible because of it.
So, what are you referring to when you say I'm confronted with parental indoctrination in school every day.
What kind of parents are you speaking of? And what kind of religious movement?
Indoctrination takes many forms within schools, some more subtle than others. Merely by calling the school "catholic" is, in itself, a form of indoctrination. There is zero need to have any religion connected with the name of the school....other than indoctrination.
Being taught about God is part of the national curriculum and completely different from a school actually being run by a religion and having an admissions policy based on that religion. Bunching kids together within the same religious group is another form of indoctrination as it does it's best to prevent input and discussion by non-beleivers.
Having religion used to divide communities via admission policies is a horrible, horible thing.
Well said.
At the age of about 6 or 7 I was aware that we were Catholic and the school down the road was Protestant. I had no idea what Protestant was other than something to do with their church being different in some way. But I was left in no doubt by my fellow pupils that Protestant = bad.
This indoctrination clearly came from their parents as apart from morning prayers the teachers didn't really mention religion that much as I recall (although perhaps that's the trick of brainwashing someone - they don't know it's being done?) and living deep in the shires of middle England I obviously had no concept of the Northern Irish conflict until I came into contact with the poison of religion and the school system that was allowed to segregate us. So children like me who hadn't even been indoctrinated by my church going but hardly hardcore Catholic parents grew up with the mindset that proddys were bad and we were automatically better just by dint of the fact we were Catholics.
That sense of superiority and being the chosen people is quite a powerful drug and I can see why people are reluctant to let go of it.
I get the same feeling when I converse with @Risico007!
And as I mentioned before on this thread one of my wife's friend and colleague (at the time) who was also a TA at the same school had her daughter (7 or 8 then) come back in tears after RE. When asked why, she said that she was "not special". It turned out the teacher had told the class baptized children are special in the eyes of God and he loves them all very much for it.
But no, @NicNac there's no religious indoctrination in schools. Nothing that could harm children in any way, no religious favoritism.
I'm not arguing that any religion is harmless. I was playing devil's advocate if you will, and asking Dimi to clarify his point.
But, on your point there - Are you saying that this one teacher represents all faith teachers? Are you saying this is a general attitude throughout faith schools?
And the term 'faith' school is another thing that needs stopping as well. A school is a place of learning, critical thinking, enlightenment whereas 'faith' (whatever the hell such a wishy washy concept is supposed to mean - it's just a euphemism for self delusion isn't it?) is the very opposite of this.