Well here comes the UK General Election!

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  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,021
    I think they are going for her blood soon.
    After that blunder she simply can't go on. I bet Boris Johnson soon is PM.
    That would be a blast for Brussels ha ha...
  • Posts: 11,119
    bondjames wrote: »
    @Ludovico, are you referring to a US Republican? There are several variations of them, and they shouldn't all be lumped together. The Tea Party and religious faction is but one element, and sadly the one that normally gets all the attention. There are several non religious but conservative (small government & generally non-inverventionist) types within the party.

    That's the big problem with Brexit now. Brexit until now has been nothing more than a black-and-white campaign slogan. At the negotiating table it needs a unified firm Conservative Party that represents May's hard Brexit rethoric. Sadly, that's not the case.

    At moments like these, I am very happy we have a multi-party democratic system in The Netherlands. It forces people...and parties to negotiate in a much better way. Something that's completely absent in the UK and USA. So Brexit inevitably will create huge rifts in the British Conservative Party. One should be praying to be an opposition party right now in the UK.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2017 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    @Ludovico, are you referring to a US Republican? There are several variations of them, and they shouldn't all be lumped together. The Tea Party and religious faction is but one element, and sadly the one that normally gets all the attention. There are several non religious but conservative (small government & generally non-inverventionist) types within the party.

    That's the big problem with Brexit now. Brexit until now has been nothing more than a black-and-white campaign slogan. At the negotiating table it needs a unified firm Conservative Party that represents May's hard Brexit rethoric. Sadly, that's not the case.

    At moments like these, I am very happy we have a multi-party democratic system in The Netherlands. It forces people...and parties to negotiate in a much better way. Something that's completely absent in the UK and USA. So Brexit inevitably will create huge rifts in the British Conservative Party. One should be praying to be an opposition party right now in the UK.
    For the country's sake, all parties must come together and try to unify around a common negotiating position for Brexit. May will have to compromise internally now, and perhaps that's the best thing that could have happened for the country.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    edited June 2017 Posts: 9,021
    May losing the majority for the Tories definitely is a good thing.
    But the way it happened, the gamble on her parts, that is just bad.

    The hard, soft Brexit rhetoric is nonsense though. The only solution always was that the UK will have similar relations to the EU as Switzerland has for instance (and other non EU members).

    There is no one deal. It will be an ongoing process for years and years. There will be day X when the UK officially has left the EU, but the deals will go on and on, bilateral talks, agreements etc.
  • Posts: 12,230
    bondjames wrote: »
    @Ludovico, are you referring to a US Republican? There are several variations of them, and they shouldn't all be lumped together. The Tea Party and religious faction is but one element, and sadly the one that normally gets all the attention. There are several non religious but conservative (small government & generally non-inverventionist) types within the party.

    No I mean "proper" republicanism. I.e. the republic is the best form of government.
  • Posts: 11,119
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    @Ludovico, are you referring to a US Republican? There are several variations of them, and they shouldn't all be lumped together. The Tea Party and religious faction is but one element, and sadly the one that normally gets all the attention. There are several non religious but conservative (small government & generally non-inverventionist) types within the party.

    That's the big problem with Brexit now. Brexit until now has been nothing more than a black-and-white campaign slogan. At the negotiating table it needs a unified firm Conservative Party that represents May's hard Brexit rethoric. Sadly, that's not the case.

    At moments like these, I am very happy we have a multi-party democratic system in The Netherlands. It forces people...and parties to negotiate in a much better way. Something that's completely absent in the UK and USA. So Brexit inevitably will create huge rifts in the British Conservative Party. One should be praying to be an opposition party right now in the UK.
    For the country's sake, all parties must come together and try to unify around a common negotiating position for Brexit. May will have to compromise internally now, and perhaps that's the best thing that could have happened for the country.

    The big question now should be on what May has to compromise. Brexit doesn't know compromises.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    @Ludovico, are you referring to a US Republican? There are several variations of them, and they shouldn't all be lumped together. The Tea Party and religious faction is but one element, and sadly the one that normally gets all the attention. There are several non religious but conservative (small government & generally non-inverventionist) types within the party.

    No I mean "proper" republicanism. I.e. the republic is the best form of government.
    Oh, right. The Cromwell sort. Yes, then I agree.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya “We are thrilled to delay B25”
    Posts: 2,539
    So liberal democrats arnt left wing they are more about freedom?
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 11,119
    So liberal democrats arnt left wing they are more about freedom?

    Liberal Democrats in the UK are very much like D66 in The Netherlands. Nick Clegg (LibDem) and Alexander Pechtold (D66 Leader) are actually quite good friends. Here's the manifesto from D66 which on most issues is exactly the same as the LibDem manifesto:

    https://d66.nl/content/uploads/sites/2/2016/11/Engelse-vertaling-programma-2017-1.pdf

    Right now, D66 (Social Liberals) is trying to form a coalition government with VVD (Conservative Liberal Party), GroenLinks (Green Party) and CDA (Christian Democrats). One of their goals is trying to form a new kind of 'Green Right Alliance'.

    I see you are from Kenya no @JamesBondKenya :-)? You're Always welcome to visit The Netherlands. We could use some motivated people in our workforce.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2017 Posts: 23,883
    So liberal democrats arnt left wing they are more about freedom?
    They are more left wing than The Conservative Party but right of Labour in many ways. The lines have blurred so much over the years as 'New' Labour moved to the right under Blair and Brown. These days it looks like Labour is trending back to the left imho.

    The Liberal Democrats are difficult to define and perhaps that's why they don't win elections. I don't think people really understand what they stand for. They are a combination of the old Liberal Party and the Social Democrats (a Labour splinter party) and their policies reflect both. They are in favour of lower taxes for the poor and state intervention. A mixed economic model which adopts liberal ideas. I've always felt it was a party of intellectuals.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 11,119
    bondjames wrote: »
    The Liberal Democrats are difficult to define and perhaps that's why they don't win elections. I don't think people really understand what they stand for. They are a combination of the old Liberal Party and the Social Democrats (a Labour splinter party) and their policies reflect both. They are in favour of lower taxes for the poor and state intervention. A mixed economic model which adopts liberal ideas. I've always felt it was a party of intellectuals.

    I also think the two-party district system Always prevented the LibDem's from flourishing, whereas in The Netherlands we now actually have two major liberal parties, that are actually growing in rural constituencies as well: D66 (Progressive Social Liberal Party) and VVD (More Conservative Liberal Party). We have to thank the Multi-party democratic system for that as well.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    The Liberal Democrats are difficult to define and perhaps that's why they don't win elections. I don't think people really understand what they stand for. They are a combination of the old Liberal Party and the Social Democrats (a Labour splinter party) and their policies reflect both. They are in favour of lower taxes for the poor and state intervention. A mixed economic model which adopts liberal ideas. I've always felt it was a party of intellectuals.

    I also think the two-party district system Always prevented the LibDem's from flourishing, whereas in The Netherlands we now actually have two major liberal parties, that are actually growing in rural constituencies as well: D66 (Progressive Social Liberal Party) and VVD (More Conservative Liberal Party). We have to thank the Multi-party democratic system for that as well.
    Yes, definitely. The first past the post system does disadvantage a third party always. Quite unfortunate.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 11,119
    Here's a nice chart of the election results in The United Kingdom and The Netherlands this year:

    Netherlands (we have a 150 seat Lower Chamber). Turnout was an incredible 81.9%:
    SEObm4H.png
    'Green' parties like D66, GroenLinks and PartyforAnimals gained the most seats: 20 seats in total.

    United Kingdom (they have a 650 seat Lower Chamber). Turnout was 68.7%:
    7nzfmji.png

    I have to say......I think democracy is better supported in The Netherlands.
  • MrcogginsMrcoggins Following in the footsteps of Quentin Quigley.
    Posts: 3,133
    I think they are going for her blood soon.
    After that blunder she simply can't go on. I bet Boris Johnson soon is PM.
    That would be a blast for Brussels ha ha...

    And Boris as PM give me strength
    He would be as much use as a one legged man in an arse kicking contest.
  • Posts: 3,841
    Boris is itching for the job and this is a golden opportunity after he was shafted by Gove. He will bide his time and let May sweat a little and also show how useless the DUP agreement will be. He will then let someone else get the ball rolling and then join the fight.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,021
    The Netherlands are one of the biggest worries for Europe. Just look how Wilders won that election behind Rutte. Deplorable and with this kind of turnout highly frightening.

    One wonders how long until Wilders will win. Same for France. Macron got lucky, but he is a blackbox and may turn out to be another Hollande. And then Le Pen has a real chance of becoming Madam President.

    In that regard, the UK is the least of Europe's worries. And democracy is served better in a country that doesn't have a ultra right party on second place in elections.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 11,119
    The Netherlands are one of the biggest worries for Europe. Just look how Wilders won that election behind Rutte. Deplorable and with this kind of turnout highly frightening.

    One wonders how long until Wilders will win. Same for France. Macron got lucky, but he is a blackbox and may turn out to be another Hollande. And then Le Pen has a real chance of becoming Madam President.

    In that regard, the UK is the least of Europe's worries. And democracy is served better in a country that doesn't have a ultra right party on second place in elections.

    Again, you exaggerate greatly. On the entire Dutch electorate, 13.1% voted for Geert Wilders. You, again, again, again and AGAIN, completely loose perspective on these matters. Netherlands has a multi-party system, like I said before. Ever since 2002 the right-wing populists never escaped that 15%. Not during the 2002 elections, not during the 2010 elections. They never grow bigger. They never win as much as Donald Trump wins. Instead, in The Netherlands parties act on the rise of right-wing populism and openly come with solutions to tackle that. That's democracy too.

    The UK, like I said before, has a district system with winner-takes-all parliament seats. That doesn't mean that the UK has less right-wing populist sentiment. On the contrary actually, it's why Brexit happened.

    The biggest problem is you though, who only cares for democracy if it serves right-wing populism. But hey, if green and progressive parties in the Netherlands win in total 20 seats (GroenLinks, D66, PvdD), then all hell breaks loose, then democracy in danger. God guy, can you just f**k off and stop lying and refrain yourself from your grotesque nonsense? You know where democracy really is in danger? Venezuela!

    Regarding Macron. Just stop lying man! You don't even read what Macron's party is actually doing in France. En Marche is blocking any establishment politician to enter the campaign of the upcoming parilamentary elections. For instance, former PM Valls (Hollande's party) was shown the exit straight away after he wanted to join En Marche. Instead, this is now actually happening, instead of your pityful lies:
    https://www.thelocal.fr/20170609/macron-candidates-march-towards-victory
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 15,867
    I think both of you need to stay out of political threads for a while.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 11,119
    Murdock wrote: »
    I think both of you need to stay out of political threads for a while.

    Nah, it's ok @Murdock. But sometimes the record needs to be set straight. I can be quite a verbal person sometimes. But if people start loosing context, loosing perspective and only find news that reflect their emotions and lies, then I am sincerely done with that. And in the case of Jason this is basically bordering lies.

    He's making it appear that The Netherlands is more dangerous to democracy in Europe than the UK. I don't even bring up such a discussion! If people stay silent about such blatant lies, then we keep feeding their cynical lies.

    Freedom and democracy also means that you make these people feel accountable of such untrue assessments @Murdock. When it comes to hobbies like Bond, Jason is a fine guy. But when he uses such nonsense in here, I think I need to set the record straight.
  • Posts: 11,119
    patb wrote: »
    Boris is itching for the job and this is a golden opportunity after he was shafted by Gove. He will bide his time and let May sweat a little and also show how useless the DUP agreement will be. He will then let someone else get the ball rolling and then join the fight.

    I think you are actually mentioning a problem of the Conservative Party. It's too big. Theresa May wasn't even a 'true believer' when it comes down to Brexit. Boris Johnson however, basically was campaigning with Nigel Farage. That's the thing, Theresa May wants her party to stay unified, so she tries to act like a right-wing populist hawk. But in essence she really isn't. That's creating havoc upon her.

    Will Boris Johnson change that discord? Off course not.
  • Posts: 12,230
    bondjames wrote: »
    So liberal democrats arnt left wing they are more about freedom?
    They are more left wing than The Conservative Party but right of Labour in many ways. The lines have blurred so much over the years as 'New' Labour moved to the right under Blair and Brown. These days it looks like Labour is trending back to the left imho.

    The Liberal Democrats are difficult to define and perhaps that's why they don't win elections. I don't think people really understand what they stand for. They are a combination of the old Liberal Party and the Social Democrats (a Labour splinter party) and their policies reflect both. They are in favour of lower taxes for the poor and state intervention. A mixed economic model which adopts liberal ideas. I've always felt it was a party of intellectuals.

    I've heard years ago this one which defines them pretty well: "Lib Dem are whatever's left".
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    edited June 2017 Posts: 9,021
    It's nice to see how some people know it all better ;) and have to lecture us lying, stupid and simple folks.
    And it's good to see that one is put into the populist right corner if doesn't agree with politically left opinions. For them nothing right of far left exists.
    Same in Switzerland really. That's why the middle parties are so important and that's why I'll always vote for them. They are the only ones that can go left or right in their decisions depending on good sense.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2017 Posts: 23,883
    And it's good to see that one is put into the populist right corner if doesn't agree with politically left opinions. .
    Yes, this is a mistake. The right is often dismissed as a populist & uncaring backward lot. That's an unfair and inaccurate characterization imho. There's an element of (unintended perhaps) psychological manipulation in the rhetoric, because if one is in favour of less government intervention, one must automatically be heartless.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,021
    bondjames wrote: »
    And it's good to see that one is put into the populist right corner if doesn't agree with politically left opinions. .
    Yes, this is a mistake. The right is often dismissed as a populist & uncaring backward lot. That's an unfair and inaccurate characterization imho. There's an element of (unintended perhaps) psychological manipulation in the rhetoric, because if one is in favour of less government intervention, one must automatically be heartless.

    It's not unintended, it's intended alright. I read lots of newspapers, from left side in the political spectrum to the right side. It gives good perspective even if sometimes I want to throw up at some that is written in populist right wing articles or populist naiv left wing articles.

    Sadly, the two party system that worked for decades no longer works. That applies to all the countries who know that system. The UK, the US and others.

    What we see in France is someone, Macron, who got lucky to be in the right place at the right time. But if his "movement" is any different we will see. For now I give him a chance, because he deserves that and the French will, as usual, give the new President full power in parliament. Something I truly admire by the way.

    Polarisation is taking place everywhere, even in Switzerland. But still, we have five strong parties and that will never change because enough people have good sense to keep balance. And we don't have a far right party luckily. We have a conservative party that uses populist rhetoric to gain votes but in reality they are very neoliberal. Not that this would be any better imho.
  • Posts: 12,230
    bondjames wrote: »
    And it's good to see that one is put into the populist right corner if doesn't agree with politically left opinions. .
    Yes, this is a mistake. The right is often dismissed as a populist & uncaring backward lot. That's an unfair and inaccurate characterization imho. There's an element of (unintended perhaps) psychological manipulation in the rhetoric, because if one is in favour of less government intervention, one must automatically be heartless.

    You can be conservative and interventionist, if not statist. Which could be argued was one of May's problems. At least when it comes to the "dementia tax".
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2017 Posts: 23,883
    @BondJasonBond006, I very much agree with you that the two party system is dead. Western hegemony is in steep decline (culturally as well as economically) and this will only accelerate. Recent elections in the US and UK illustrate that traditional (and manufactured) left/right divides are unsustainable, because the current politcally partisan models are not set up to deal with today's problems.

    The UK is forced to work collaboratively now on Brexit, and in a way that's the best thing that could have happened in order to get a more consensus driven solution (if they can manage it). This is the 2nd time there has been a hung parliament in 7 years, and prior to that it hadn't happened in 36 years.

    I read yesterday that it was Jean-Claude Juncker who encouraged May to call the snap election. I'm not sure how true that is. The irony.
    ---

    Yes, @Ludovico I agree. One can certainly be conservative and interventionist as well. I was referring more to the way conservatives are generally portrayed as heartless and cold.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,021
    @bondjames

    Well, Juncker is the greatest idiot ever gracing Brussels, that's for sure. But in a way he is fitting there. He stands exemplary for all that is wrong there.

    I am actually glad too, the Tories have lost the majority. To be honest, I always voted Labour in the past.
    But May was a Godsend (for me) after Cameron.

    It's a shame she gambled so high. She could have been great. But now she has lost that gamble, she lost it all. So she has to go.

    I'm a bit fatalistic lately. Honestly, I wouldn't mind if Boris Johnson would be PM soon. I hate that guy but oh it would be such sweet revenge on those imbeciles in Brussels hahaha...
    ....@GG NOW you can call me a populist LOL
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited October 24 Posts: 13,750
    Another General Election could take place on December 12th.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-50174402
  • BondStuBondStu Moonraker 6
    Posts: 333
    Another General Election could take place on December 12th.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-50174402

    What a MESS.
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