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People used to pray for fertility, for promising weather forecasts, for victory in battle and so forth. Now we find doctors, we consult meteorologists, we think and reason. We have virtually rendered every single one of those hundreds if not thousands of pagan gods obsolete. But the one you still keep for filling in the few remaining blanks, is the one we disagree on. Just the last one still standing, because some people haven't entirely given up on superstition. And yes, that is what it is. Superstition. Hence, you cannot expect to have a thread about ghosts, and a serious one for that matter, and not end up discussing religion, for all of those things are part of a massive hysteria, a delusion, make-belief, superstition...
Face it, many "believers" use god as their wild card. Just what if and all that. I rather live my heaven, in full mental clarity, than cling to a book written by some peasants from the Iron Age hoping to one day enter a heaven that doesn't exist, after I'm dead. Only those who believe in an afterlife can believe in ghosts; the two are connected.
"Freedom or religion" is the biggest Trojan Horse modern society carries with it. Not until we have abolished organised religion and instructed people to think for themselves, can we do away with several of the great horrors that persistently threaten our world.
I have tried to let people read the works of Bertrant Russell and others before, and nearly always do they refuse. Why? Because when the truth is so clearly spelled out, it makes them sick. Like a cold shower, it takes away the promises and indulgences of magic and "deus ex machina" salvation when you most need it. Sadly, if history has shown us anything at all, it's that we must save ourselves. The Nazis thought that god was with them, and that turned out to be nothing. Many allied forces thought that god was with them, and many were gunned down in cold blood while storming a beach. And don't give me any of that, "I prayed to the lord for good grades and lo and behold, I got them" crap. Self-fulfilling prophecies and all that.
Religion, belief in ghosts, superstition, fear of black cats, cloverleafs, ... they're all a fool's game. And yes, I will concede that sometimes I find it quite entertaining, but most times it frightens me. Those people you refer to corrupted your mind, and if you yourself pass on this tragic belief in a non-existent deity to children, you corrupt their mind. This form of mindrape should be severely punished, though it's no doubt very hard to control. Any parent who teaches his child to please DON'T THINK, just read the bible and you'll find all the answers, commits a sickening atrocity. If said child takes his belief even further than the parents have intended, and becomes a "crusader against infidels", or someone who would let his wife die because he refuses medical treatment in favour of holy blessings, prayer and exorcisms, that's when the parents typically lament that they'd never intended for any of this to happen. Of course not, but you damn well made it happen, you fools! And now your lovely, devoted son mawed down 85 innocent kids, and all of this could have been avoided if in his most formative years you hadn't indoctrinated him with the dogmatic belief in something that DOES . NOT . EXIST!
I can think up a god of some sorts, pretend he was involved in certain historical events, have him spout a set of rules to live by which sound more or less acceptable, and then make up a bunch of stuff that science cannot refute because it's too silly to even approach from a scientific point-of-view. Then, I can proclaim that my god is the only true one. And then leave you the burden to disprove my god really exists. That's how believers do it. Science can't prove everything, hence god exists. Excuse me, what?
This stupidity is making me cringe! You're only passing on a torch that is burning up its last fumes. You're maintaining a belief shared by people centuries ago who also believed the Earth to be flat, who believed that moulding voluptuous women out of clay would help them to receive the gift of many healthy children. In an age of space missions, global communication networks and particle accelerators, you still stubbornly cling to an empty idea! How can you even sit behind a computer, the fruit of quantum physics, in an age where quantum physics may very well be the god delusion's most fierce opponent? This is beyond me.
You speak of the "ultimate authorship". Fine, so don't think. No, don't use your brains. Strange god you worship. He gave you a set of brains, and you're not permitting yourself to use them. You rather pick up a book that wasn't revised even once in the last 18 or so centuries and say, oh it's in here so it must be true. And you think that discussing the value of youtube videos where people "show" ghosts is any different? It's the same. And it's all painfully ridiculous.
But they did not and do not believe the same thing, not in this instance anyway. One think she's a saint the other that she's at best deluded.
And as @DarthDimi said both ghosts and faith discussion are related. In fact this thread pretty much demonstrates that the same attitude, the same lack of critical thinking is at the core of both beliefs.
I'm happy to discuss these issues in the other space I created. Truth be told, I know very little about Joan of Arc, and perhaps that even shows on my end!
A very simple question. I'd like to think we'll get a simple, straightforward answer that's slightly more convincing than 'I was once in a room and it suddenly felt cold and the door slammed.'
Well, my belief in ghosts is predicated on stories that my late father told me of rural life going to school over "the moss" in 1930s NI when he was a boy of "elementary school" age. This is what made me believe.
Baron Samedi, anyone?
Jesus anyone?
Yes, I can't deny that!
Samedi's hotel cabaret or something they say at the start of high mass?
Well, I've never attended Mass, so maybe they do.
That is belief from personal experience. And not even your own. No disrespect to your father but growing up in a superstitious time in a superstitious society can lead to plenty of "experiences" that are not grounded jn reality. And a child has a far wider imagination than an adult!
I know all of that, but I also know those involved so that gives it more credence than a stranger's story might. I will recount the story soon here in this thread but I think I've done enough posting for one day!
Yes, but it's where my deciding to believe in ghost began. I'm fully aware there may be bias there, of course.
Yes, I appreciate that, but still choose to believe. The truth is out there.
Well, in that case, I'm happy to have brightened your life with them. ;)
You're clearly a glass half full guy Darth. Being an eternal cynic I'm afraid I just despair.
I detest football, but I take your point, my friend. :)
I understood but my point is that's an unjustified belief, or at least it was when you started believing. And by the way there may not be a bias: there most certainly was a bias.
Well, if you would like, yes. That was what really started off my interest in ghosts/the paranormal in the summer of 2002 in fact. I suppose you could say that it served as the springboard!
A very nice sentiment, @DarthDimi.
I agree with him, @Dragonpol. Both Darth and I can get passionate in our responses to you, but I think it's safe to say that it changes little between us in the grand scheme as we've got a lot of stuff to connect over. In a way I think it's important and interesting to discuss these things, because not communicating is what leads to all kinds of problems in society where groups isolate themselves from discourse that could cause a rethinking process on each side when it comes to certain matters.
I try to be invested in the argument without getting cruel, so I hope I didn't cross that line this time around, as these are delicate matters. You're one of my favorite people around these parts, so I didn't intend for it to come off like that. I save my more fiery responses for those who haven't earned my respect yet, which you managed to do quite a long time ago. ;)
Ugh, you're right, @DarthDimi. And Christartos has "Christ" in his name, so he could be a radical Christian we have to contend with on top of it! I'm picturing garish MS Paint mosaics with Jesus' head pasted over Connery's Bond in a tuxedo.