Was SPECTRE a disappointment?

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    Brofeld was actually Michael G. Wilson's idea.

    Logan originally wrote a very different Blofeld who was an African warlord intended for Daniel Kaluuya (unless it was another actor). Logan had to leave due to showrunning duties for PENNY DREADFUL, so Purvis & Wade came in and Wilson had them write in the Brofeld stuff.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited October 2021 Posts: 2,897
    Fair do's - I've been doing them a disservice all this time! I knew Logan originally had Blofeld as an African warlord, so I figured the 'bro' bit hadn't come from him. :) Guess no one dared shoot it down with it being MGW's idea!
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    I'm willing to bet they thought that was great idea of his. Blofeld is supposed to be Bond's nemesis, so they must have figured having a shared past would make their conflict more compelling.

    IMO, they already had a compelling conflict without the backstory. Bond had already thwarted SPECTRE's operations. So that alone should make Blofeld wanting to hurt Bond personally for making things difficult for his organization. He can still goad about how Bond lost Vesper because he forced her into that situation.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited October 2021 Posts: 2,897
    That would've been a lot better. And surely someone at EON had seen Goldmember? How could they even think of going there after that? I dunno, maybe they were trying to 'reclaim' it, but...misfire, dude.
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited October 2021 Posts: 357
    Brofeld was actually Michael G. Wilson's idea.

    Logan originally wrote a very different Blofeld who was an African warlord intended for Daniel Kaluuya (unless it was another actor). Logan had to leave due to showrunning duties for PENNY DREADFUL, so Purvis & Wade came in and Wilson had them write in the Brofeld stuff.

    Correction, Brofeld was Mike Myers idea...

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    I never had much disdain for this film as others seem to have. I’ll take it over a good chunk of the Bond films.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,459
    I saw Spectre once, in the cinema, and I enjoyed it.
    But I never saw it again, did not even buy the DVD. It was underwhelming, though it had moments - the PTS especially, Mr. White, the plane crash. Ok, that's about it.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,518
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Mr. White is the sole pleasure I take from SP, and even that feels like it should have given me a bit more meat. It played a tad flat.

    The scene between the two of them in Altaussee is a gem, “two dead men, enjoying the evening”.
  • M16_CartM16_Cart Craig fanboy?
    Posts: 538
    6 years later. Still feels like a disappointment.

    It could've had a reputation as a decent action movie, but it instead has the legacy of ruining the Craig era story.
  • quantumspectrequantumspectre argentina
    Posts: 61
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    CountJohn wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »

    SP on the other hand is full of mystery and atmosphere. It gives us fabulous Bondian locations and adds two great Bond girls, something sorely missing from the previous entry, in Bellucci and Seydoux.

    Mendes, at least for my money, first made a Bond-Batman cross-over, and then with SP, he actually made a Bond film, and a very good one at that.

    Completely agree, Spectre was the first "classic Bond film" since TLD that contained all the elements you expect from a traditional Bond film and captured the feel of the Connery films. All of the other ones had some kind of "angle" like the many "this time it's personal" stories we got with LTK, GE and all of Craig's, plus "Bond goes to the XGames" in DAD. That's not a comment on the quality of those movies necessarily, I quite like CR and SF and CR is still the better movie. But to me SP was a welcome throwback that a true Bond fan should be able to like. I think a lot of the backlash came from newer fans who got into it with Craig's and wanted another vendetta.

    I might actually agree with that statement. In any case I find this one to be the one film in Craig’s tenure that you feel wants to be a ‘traditional’ Bond film and I quite like that.

    Doesn’t mean I don’t like the others as you also pointed out. Personally I loved CR and QOS, while I had a good first viewing of NTTD as well.
    I love all this love for Spectre, a truly enjoyable Bond film in my eyes, despite its problems.

    I must admit, I’m rather late to the show. Had an agreeable first viewing in the cinema, but over the years my feelings towards it became rather lukewarm. In the run-up to NTTD I ‘rediscovered’ its charms, now it’s a favourite of mine.

    Edit: I also feel nostalgic whenever I watch it, because I used to study in Rome just before they started shooting there. Even ran into SP’s location manager when I went out with my roommate. Remember spending quite some time with him and the people he was with. Friendly man, he did not like Belgium though :))

    Really cool! I remember my cousin was in Rome when they were filming and got some photos of the DB10 while they were filming the car chase. Really cool.

    Everything that takes place in Rome (up until the car chase) feels like an elaborate dance to me, and is really captivating to watch. The funeral, Lucia's home, the meeting... loved it.

    do you have photos of the db10 taken by you? post them¡¡¡
    by the way, yes, spectre is one of my favorite movies.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,518
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    CountJohn wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »

    SP on the other hand is full of mystery and atmosphere. It gives us fabulous Bondian locations and adds two great Bond girls, something sorely missing from the previous entry, in Bellucci and Seydoux.

    Mendes, at least for my money, first made a Bond-Batman cross-over, and then with SP, he actually made a Bond film, and a very good one at that.

    Completely agree, Spectre was the first "classic Bond film" since TLD that contained all the elements you expect from a traditional Bond film and captured the feel of the Connery films. All of the other ones had some kind of "angle" like the many "this time it's personal" stories we got with LTK, GE and all of Craig's, plus "Bond goes to the XGames" in DAD. That's not a comment on the quality of those movies necessarily, I quite like CR and SF and CR is still the better movie. But to me SP was a welcome throwback that a true Bond fan should be able to like. I think a lot of the backlash came from newer fans who got into it with Craig's and wanted another vendetta.

    I might actually agree with that statement. In any case I find this one to be the one film in Craig’s tenure that you feel wants to be a ‘traditional’ Bond film and I quite like that.

    Doesn’t mean I don’t like the others as you also pointed out. Personally I loved CR and QOS, while I had a good first viewing of NTTD as well.
    I love all this love for Spectre, a truly enjoyable Bond film in my eyes, despite its problems.

    I must admit, I’m rather late to the show. Had an agreeable first viewing in the cinema, but over the years my feelings towards it became rather lukewarm. In the run-up to NTTD I ‘rediscovered’ its charms, now it’s a favourite of mine.

    Edit: I also feel nostalgic whenever I watch it, because I used to study in Rome just before they started shooting there. Even ran into SP’s location manager when I went out with my roommate. Remember spending quite some time with him and the people he was with. Friendly man, he did not like Belgium though :))

    Really cool! I remember my cousin was in Rome when they were filming and got some photos of the DB10 while they were filming the car chase. Really cool.

    Everything that takes place in Rome (up until the car chase) feels like an elaborate dance to me, and is really captivating to watch. The funeral, Lucia's home, the meeting... loved it.

    do you have photos of the db10 taken by you? post them¡¡¡
    by the way, yes, spectre is one of my favorite movies.

    Sadly no; it was my cousin that was there. I might check his Facebook though now that you mention it…
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited October 2021 Posts: 357
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I had this in another thread, but it goes here. Moved it.


    Watching SP for the first time since NTTD, I had a rare positive thought in regard to Craig’s penultimate Bond film;
    At least they didn’t kill him.

    Lol

    I watched YOLT last night... they killed James Bond!!!

    I love that film, which proves what rubbish all that malarky about Bond spoofs is. The truth is you can get away with just about anything if you play it dead straight, rather than camp.

    But I find SPECTRE has grown on me, maybe because my expectations of it are lower now, but I find there is plenty of wholesome Bond-ish fun to be had, even if I find this Blofeld underwhelming, as I do Donald Pleasance YOLT version

    Donald Pleasance makes a superb "Himmler" type evil bureaucratic villain, but, personally, I want Blofeld, as Bond's arch nemesis, to be a more charismatic "Hitler" type figure

    Someone who can go from quiet menace to volcanic rage at the flick of a switch

    Christoph Waltz was given the material with which to demonstrate that sort of personality in "Inglourious Basterds" but unfortunately he isn't given the same opportunities in "SPECTRE"

  • Posts: 1,879
    Seve wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I had this in another thread, but it goes here. Moved it.


    Watching SP for the first time since NTTD, I had a rare positive thought in regard to Craig’s penultimate Bond film;
    At least they didn’t kill him.

    Lol

    I watched YOLT last night... they killed James Bond!!!

    I love that film, which proves what rubbish all that malarky about Bond spoofs is. The truth is you can get away with just about anything if you play it dead straight, rather than camp.

    But I find SPECTRE has grown on me, maybe because my expectations of it are lower now, but I find there is plenty of wholesome Bond-ish fun to be had, even if I find this Blofeld underwhelming, as I do Donald Pleasance YOLT version

    Donald Pleasance makes a superb "Himmler" type evil bureaucratic villain, but, personally, I want Blofeld, as Bond's arch nemesis, to be a more charismatic "Hitler" type figure

    Someone who can go from quiet menace to volcanic rage at the flick of a switch

    Christoph Waltz was given the material with which to demonstrate that sort of personality in "Inglourious Basterds" but unfortunately he isn't given the same opportunities in "SPECTRE"

    Yes, agree with you. It's like Waltz's Blofeld tries to take the psychological route to torture Bond's psyche but isn't anywhere close to what Javier Bardem's Silva did in SF. Thus the Waltz Blofeld turns out to be a huge disappointment when you consider his stature in Bond legend and the way he was brought in. You're set up to expect something epic and you get a cop show ending.
  • KenAustinKenAustin United States
    Posts: 226
    The thing I liked the most, especially in today's politically charged climate, was that it was a big f#*k no to the govt sponsored surveillance machine, absolutely loved the ending where he got his DB5 back too, just sayin.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited January 2022 Posts: 5,921
    What was great about SF is that it was a standalone.

    SP was so derivative and kept tripping over the remnants of SF, almost literally, in Dench and the MI6 building. SP needed to tell its own story and establish its own characters. It is a shame because the cast was good but underused. More Bellucci and Waltz (they could have been a villainous duo) and better use of Seydoux would have gone a long way.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,195
    I also wonder why women in the Bond franchise stopped being villains after Craig became Bond. I thought it was a very smart move to make Elektra the main villain in TWINE . The femme fatales have usually been highlights in the respective Bond films. I Just don't understand why that does not seem to be aproriate anymore...
  • goldenswissroyalegoldenswissroyale Switzerland
    edited January 2022 Posts: 4,378
    There is a lot that can be said against SP but it was by far the best Bond entry in an eight years period...(2013-2020). This can't be said about that many Bond movies!
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    There is a lot that can be said against SP but it was by far the best Bond entry in an eight years period...(2013-2020). This can't be said about that many Bond movies!

    I agree...
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    GBF wrote: »
    I also wonder why women in the Bond franchise stopped being villains after Craig became Bond. I thought it was a very smart move to make Elektra the main villain in TWINE . The femme fatales have usually been highlights in the respective Bond films. I Just don't understand why that does not seem to be aproriate anymore...

    I doubt it was intentional.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,195
    GBF wrote: »
    I also wonder why women in the Bond franchise stopped being villains after Craig became Bond. I thought it was a very smart move to make Elektra the main villain in TWINE . The femme fatales have usually been highlights in the respective Bond films. I Just don't understand why that does not seem to be aproriate anymore...

    I doubt it was intentional.

    Hmm, ... there have been dozens of major and especially minor villains in Craig's films. All male characters. Unfortunately quite many of them do not really stand out. A henchwoman could have been much more memorable in her role. I just wonder why they never used that concept. In the Brosnan films it was used a lot, also in the Connery films.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited January 2022 Posts: 7,518
    Well we had Valenka, if you’re talking about minor villains too. She very nearly kills Bond.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,483
    I wonder what Spectre would have been like if Daniel hadn't injured his knee filming
  • Personally I love Spectre
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,255
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I wonder what Spectre would have been like if Daniel hadn't injured his knee filming

    I imagine we'd get a livelier performance from Craig.

    He couldn't be physical, he was on pain meds throughout most of the shoot (there are times in the film where he was looking bloated (fire these meds back every day and see how it screws with metabolism); I think if he was in good health the action sequences would have improved significantly, @Jordo007 , which may've improved the over all production, incrementally.

    But they still had a very wonky script with a half-baked third act (a livelier performance and better action set pieces will only conceal so much...)
  • KenAustinKenAustin United States
    Posts: 226
    Honestly I loved all of the films, this one included...very minor amounts of criticism of small details here and there...my biggest critique was just his death in NTTD, not a fan regardless of the story or the actor's wishes...otherwise they are all pretty great
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    edited January 2022 Posts: 2,483
    peter wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I wonder what Spectre would have been like if Daniel hadn't injured his knee filming

    I imagine we'd get a livelier performance from Craig.

    He couldn't be physical, he was on pain meds throughout most of the shoot (there are times in the film where he was looking bloated (fire these meds back every day and see how it screws with metabolism); I think if he was in good health the action sequences would have improved significantly, @Jordo007 , which may've improved the over all production, incrementally.

    But they still had a very wonky script with a half-baked third act (a livelier performance and better action set pieces will only conceal so much...)

    I think you're right mate. I imagine a lot was changed because of the injury

    I didn't really keep up with Spectre's production, I knew Daniel got badly hurt, but I didn't realise how badly until he detailed it in Being James Bond. It made me see Spectre in a different light, credit Daniel and the team for powering through it
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,449
    That is also part of the reason why I have come to deeply respect QOS. At some point, they had almost nothing to work with anymore. Craig and a core team stayed put and gave us a finished film despite having some raw material to work with.

    I know that some people like to blame Craig for whatever went wrong, but say what you want: the man was committed!
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    That is also part of the reason why I have come to deeply respect QOS. At some point, they had almost nothing to work with anymore. Craig and a core team stayed put and gave us a finished film despite having some raw material to work with.

    I know that some people like to blame Craig for whatever went wrong, but say what you want: the man was committed!

    I like QOS a great deal, and a lot of that is because of the hard work & naked creativity that was employed to finish it by Craig & Forster (and the rest) under not-great conditions.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited January 2022 Posts: 8,000
    GBF wrote: »
    GBF wrote: »
    I also wonder why women in the Bond franchise stopped being villains after Craig became Bond. I thought it was a very smart move to make Elektra the main villain in TWINE . The femme fatales have usually been highlights in the respective Bond films. I Just don't understand why that does not seem to be aproriate anymore...

    I doubt it was intentional.

    Hmm, ... there have been dozens of major and especially minor villains in Craig's films. All male characters. Unfortunately quite many of them do not really stand out. A henchwoman could have been much more memorable in her role. I just wonder why they never used that concept. In the Brosnan films it was used a lot, also in the Connery films.

    Interestingly, Irma Bunt was in the early drafts for SPECTRE, and Tilda Swinton was considered for the role of Blofeld.

    I mainly just doubt your personal assertion that no female villains were featured due to “appropriateness”. Unless you have something to back that up.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,518
    Tilda Swinton would have made a really cool Irma Bunt. I liked Waltz as Blofeld.
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