'Looking for a news story ?'....TND Appreciation & Discussion

edited June 2017 in Bond Movies Posts: 19,339
There may be one here already,but the search engine on this compared our old site 'KTBEU' is woeful,so if there is one on here then just merge them please Mods :

This is an appreciation thread for TND ,which i think gets a 'bum rap' sometimes, and is an entertaining Bond film,with many great one-liners and scenes ,until,i admit,the very end,which is a shame : all comments welcome peeps !
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Comments

  • edited August 2016 Posts: 19,339
    For me ,the following are brilliant :

    1)The PTS
    2)The score
    3)The clever use of the Bond theme,eg,when Bond escapes from Carver's Printing factory.
    4)Dr Kaufmann scene - one of my favourites in the series.
    5)Bond's planned grenade explosion on the stealth boat,pre-empting that Carver would kill Gupta once the missile is ready to 'rock n roll'.
    6)Bond spying in Carver's office ,pushing over the satellite as he escapes.
    7)The remote control car chase,with a brilliant score,and the fact Carver's goons cant get into the BMW.
    8)The death of Paris...'she struggled terribly Mr Bond'...

    And it is my 'go to' Bond film when i've had one too many ,er,lemonades,shall we say ?
  • edited August 2016 Posts: 12,837
    Tomorrow Never Dies is a lot like Live And Let Die for me in the sense that it's a lot of fun and has a lot going for it, but I find watching it frustrating more than anything because it's soooo close to being one of the best, it has all the right ingredients for a great top ten Bond film but just falls short of the mark. I think it also doesn't help that it comes between Goldeneye and The World Is Not Enough, which are two of my all time favourites.

    Still though, I won't get into all that now, this is an appreciation thread and there's a lot to enjoy. The PTS is brilliant. I love the score. Carver is a great and original (the idea of evil media baron is a stroke of genius and it's still relevant) pantomime villain and John Pryce seems to be having a lot of fun playing him. The plot, while dumb, feels very high stakes. Right from the off there's a sense that we're not messing around here. 48 hours to investigate, Bond getting his briefing in a speeding police escorted car, etc. Then the Hamurg stuff is class. The Bond and Paris relationship is really interesting (it was Brosnan's idea, iirc, because he wanted a girl Bond actually had feelings for), Bond having to see and actually use one of the many girls he's ditched over the years was another stroke of genius (I love how nonchalant M is about using Paris and pimping Bond out too, Judi Dench at her best). I love Bond downing vodka shots in his hotel room waiting for a potential assassin and I think the Bond and Paris love scene is probably the most passionate well done of the series. The printing press sequence is a lot of fun, it's a cool spy sequence that develops into a really fun action scene (love Bond using the barrel of his gun to lock the electronic door, the Bond theme playing as he casually strolls off but then cutting off when he gets found out, his reuniting with Wai Lin and the oh piss off look he does when she walks down the wall, the bit where he leaps onto the catwalk rolls over and drops the guard with a couple of shots from the ppk is badass, and "they'll print anything these days" strikes just the right balance between corny and witty), and Brosnan makes it all look effortless. Then there's the death of Paris with the Kauffman scene which is one of the best scenes of the series. And finally the BMW chase is really well done, imo. I think the remote control car gimmick was a cool idea and it makes for one more fun action sequence.

    Sadly I don't really think the rest of the film lives up to the Hamburg stuff at all (which, now that I think about it, is "classic" Bond at it's well oiled best, and probably Brosnan's finest hour, he's perfect in those scenes) but it has its moments. The HALO jump is a great stunt. I also really like the escape from Carver's office, and the motorbike chase is a lot of fun, especially the bit where it jumps over the helicopter. I also think Wai Lin is a very good Bond girl (and a refreshingly diverse casting, in a series that travels the globe it'd be nice to have more variety in the female leads, and villains for that matter, instead of just white European girl after white European girl, with the odd white Brit and white American thrown in for good measure) and I love the way Michelle Yeoh and Brosnan play off eachother. The mistake, I think, was making her a love interest. Bond had already got laid twice in the film, and after the death of Paris they really should have waited until the next one to have him shack up with a girl again. And while like I said, I think they had great chemistry, there was no sexual tension imo. It was more of a fun, playful, mutual respect for each other as professionals.

    But anyway I think TND does get a tougher time than it deserves. Goes off the rails towards the end but up until that point it's a really fun, well done old school Bond film with some great stunts and action sequences, a fun villain, Brosnan at his best (with a good Bond girl to play off and a fun villain to contend with) and some genuinely clever, original ideas.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    I love TND! It was the second Bond film I ever saw (my first was CR) and it's been my favorite ever since. I wish EON would make more straightforward, classically styled, Bond-on-a-mission, movies like it.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,588
    TND is a constant thrill ride from start to finish for me. The only reason it ranks semi-low in my ranking is because I simply can't find a place for it.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Better to raise it a notch than lower it jake,but tbh i face the same conundrum....
  • edited August 2016 Posts: 6,432
    Up until the end of the Germany sequence I do enjoy TND, after that I struggle with the film Carver at times makes me cringe. I do rate the soundtrack I remember humming it for days after watching the film at the cinema.
  • SzonanaSzonana Mexico
    edited August 2016 Posts: 1,130
    I loooved this movie like i do with the whole Pierce cuadrilogy.
    All their good stuff and this one is great because of how simple the plot is from the very beginning. Basically Bond for dumbies but in a good way.
    Its the film you can introduce to your palls who don't like to or want to think much while watching a film.

    Carver is the most fun villain and Jonathan Pryce seems like he had great fun playing him.

    Pierce got finally very comfortable in the role, no nerves this time and made his Bond portrayal very cool and confident.
    The love scene with Paris was so nicely done and their chemistry looked so real(if it wasn't for the media we would have never known they really didn't get along).

    Last but not least great action. The most action oriented film from the Pierce Brosnan era.

    10/10
  • All of Pierce's movies get a bum rap around here! And the only one deserving of that bum rap is DAD.

    TND is middle-of-the-road for me. I used to prefer it to TWINE, now it is the other way. Still, so much to like: the back and forth between M and Roebuck, an underrated but admittedly underutilised henchman in Stamper, a very well conceptualised secondary Bond girl (though the actress is not), an appreciable score from Arnold, and a great central villain in the hammy Elliot Carver. The action is mostly solid although a little excessive because there is a feeling that it's sort of 'all the same'. The car chase is a standout however.

    And it's just great fun. The Q scene is a great example of the movie's fun factor. "Let's see how she responds to my touch" - and then having the Bond them blaring big and bombastic. You don't see that in Bond nowadays do you? No, Daniel, you don't.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited August 2016 Posts: 6,862
    The TND video game kicked off my Bond fandom back in 1999. The film itself was never one of my favourites.

    Until recently.

    I just love how quotable this film is. Its quips are so well-written. They haven't yet entered cringeworthy territory here like in the later Broz years. It's all deliciously witty.

    Speaking of Pierce Brosnan, I think he might be at his self-confident best here. GE is his best film but here he really is the star of the show.

    The villains are all delightfully fun characters, especially Kaufman and Carver. Wai Lin is an unforgettable Bond Girl and the usual MI6 team goes along in the film's wittiness.

    Although I am a big defender, yes even a fan, of Eric Serra, I do adore David Arnold's score for TND. It mixes the right amount of traditional Bond sounds with modern tunes and it works well, giving the film energy.

    Energy might be a good word to describe the whole thing. It's spectacular, funny and fast-paced. I suppose Marc Forster could learn something from Roger Spottiswoode's tight direction.

    I also like how it nods to the power of mass media. It does so rather implausibly, yet between those lines of outrageous exaggeration, the film illustrates how powerful the process of media framing is in (mis)guiding people's interpretation of world events.

    Obviously TND is a box-ticker too, though it's a highly enjoyable one at that. The stunts, the dialogue, the music, the characters and Pierce at his very best make for my current #10 favourite Bond film.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    I like TND with a few reservations.

    The PTS is fantastic with great work from Dench and Geoffrey Palmer. It was also the first time we'd heard a David Arnold Bond score and he really nails it in this sequence.

    I liked the Carver character just slightly mad enough to be believable. His scene with Bond at the launch party is really good. Love the way Bond goads him with the 'lost at sea' remark.

    The Hamburg scenes are all pretty good although I hated the BMW product placement and the naff joke when Bond 'parks' it back at the Hertz office.

    The Halo jump is cool but seeing Brosnan before he jumps in the naval uniform was ridiculous because it just doesn't suit him! And I could have done without the aggravating Jack Wade again.

    The rest of the film is a bit too overloaded with action. The escape from Carver's building is cool and the bike chase is ok, but could have done without the Wai Lyn kung fu fight which is pretty absurd.

    The Stealth assault is good but it turns into a pretty generic shoot em up. Love the way Bond disposes of Carver and the final moments with Stamper are good.

    Wai Lynn is a pretty dull Bond girl but Terri Hatcher is good in her small role.

    overall a good Bond film with some nice action and a superb score from David Arnold.
  • edited August 2016 Posts: 11,189
    Tomorrow Never Dies was the first Bond I saw in the cinema in late 1997 and was one I watched a fair bit as a teenager on VHS, so one may expect me to be nostalgic towards it. To be honest...not really nowadays.

    It's cheesy, it's stylised and (possibly its biggest crime) too Americanized. However, i'd be lying if I said there weren't a few good qualities.

    First is Jonathan Pryce as Elliot Carver. Underneath the ham, there's actually a rather credible eccentric tycoon whose built his empire from the ground up and refuses to let it go. We hear glimpses of his background working for sleazy newspapers, as well as his inspirations and motivations for his actions (his reference to William Randolph Hearst). These scenes are Pryce's strongest scenes as Elliot.

    Second I think David Arnold's score is a solid one and captures the "boyish-ness" tone of PB's 90s Bond and that MTV era as a whole. True its distinctly "of" that time, but i'd argue that none of the non-Barry scores have the same "timeless" quality as his tracks. Arnold's first score has flair and energy.




    Thirdly, amidst all the generic action, there's a few standout sequences. The PTS is decent enough as is the car park chase and the HALO jump (a rather underrated stunt in the Bond series in my eyes).

    Brosnan himself is also visibly more comfortable in the role. However, I will agree that there are times when the "mannequin" qualities of his really show. He looks great in a tux or suit, but as I've got older I've noticed how "light-weight" he seems in the scenes when he's meant to be at his most lethal (gunning down Carver's men on the stealth ship). He still has some good moments in the film though:

    -working with Wai-Lin
    -breaking into Carver's warehouse
    -Dr Kaulfman scene (probably one of his best scenes as Bond).
    -smashing the ashtray over the goons head
    -the stern look he gives as he's drinking in the hotel room.

    So, as a whole, I don't think TND has aged very well. It very much reflects the "PlayStation" era it was apart of and is something of perhaps a "time capsule" Bond film for the 90s.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2016 Posts: 23,883
    For me, TND is a forgettable thrill ride. Exciting and familiar when watching it, but nothing to hold onto afterwards, and a bit too predictable without bringing anything new to the table. Done before and better.

    Having said that, I still have fun watching it, up to the end of Hamburg.

    My favourite bits (in no particular order) are as follows:

    1. pretitles
    2. Carver media group party
    3. Kaufmann
    4. Sheryl Crow's title track (I absolutely love it, and I know I'm in the minority. I much prefer it to Surrender).
    5. Carver imitating Wai Lin
    6. Some of the humour
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,862
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I don't seem to remember there was an underwater mission on the TND video game (0:15)?
  • Posts: 19,339
    Horrible when you think Desmond is talking about the millenium and he died in a car crash in 1999......that was almost spooky,that promo.
  • edited August 2016 Posts: 3,564
    If you've never seen it before, it's new to you...and this footage with Desmond as Q was new to me! So thanks for posting it, @BAIN123!

    That stated... I think the Brozzer era hasn't quite received its due around here because some of us felt the need to downplay his predecessor in order to praise Daniel Craig's fresh, new rendition of Bond. Now that it looks like we're nearing the end of Craig's tenure, perhaps a proper reassessment of Brosnan's depiction of 007 is in order. I always thought Pierce gave a fairly well rounded approach to Bond, fusing elements of Connery, Moore, and Dalton into his own nuanced take on the character. TND has a lot of good points to it, including Stamper, the remote control BMW chase, and the concept behind Rupert Murdock er, Elliot Carver as the Bond Villain du jour. I'll accept without dispute the complaint that Brosnan's tenure as Bond didn't really bring anything new to the table...other than to suggest that at this particular point, the table was pretty full with what was already on it. Perhaps there simply wasn't any room for anything new on the table circa 1997...whereas, nearly 10 years later, the table was ready for a fresh hand to be played.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,014
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Horrible when you think Desmond is talking about the millenium and he died in a car crash in 1999......that was almost spooky,that promo.

    Yes, that is indeed very sad. I've not seen that footage before. :(
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,111
    One of the best PTS of the series.
  • Posts: 19,339
    talos7 wrote: »
    One of the best PTS of the series.

    Agreed @talos7 ...brilliant isnt it ...



  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,588
    Agreed. In fact, the Brosnan era was full of brilliant pre-title sequences.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Actually i never thought of that @jake24 ...even after all this time..Brosnan was blessed with a good PTS every time...
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2016 Posts: 23,883
    GE & TND had classic pretitles, no doubt. I'll always remember the first time I saw them very fondly. Great intros for the respective films and really get you into the mood. Super cool.
  • Hahahahaha that commercial is great stuff. But sad.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I don't seem to remember there was an underwater mission on the TND video game (0:15)?

    @GoldenGun This promo is notable as it is the only footage of a version of the TND video game that was never released. This version had it's own story that started after the events of the film (hence the name "Tomorrow Never Dies: The Mission Continues"). At the end of the video, it also shows that it was slated to release on "Windows 95 CD-ROM," which never happened.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited August 2016 Posts: 15,696
    I absolutely love TND. It's one epic thrill ride for 2 hours, absolutely jam packed with action scenes and the Bond theme playing full blast every 5 minutes. I'm almost certain that TND is the only Bond film where all the action scenes put together adds up to a bigger proportion of the runtime than the 'quiet' scenes.
  • Posts: 15,951
    TND has grown on me quite a bit. I remember 1997 being a great year all round, so I have some nostalgia for this one.
    I like the PTS, which although connected to the plot still feels like a classic mini movie opening. The pacing is excellent and the film never drags. I loved Arnold's score here. After Kamen and Serra, David Arnold could really provide a good Bond sound. Jonathan Pryce is probably my favorite villain in the Brosnan era- even more so then Trevelyan. The way he says "Mr BOND" as 007 and Wai Lin are brought in to see him in the office tower is priceless.
    I actually like the fight sequences at Carver's party and in the newspaper factory. They remind me of Roger Moore in TSWLM and are my favorite fisticuffs scenes in the Brosnan era.
    The motorcycle chase is excellent- the main set piece in the film- a'la LALD's boat chase. So many things in the film are throwbacks to Roger Moore, which I appreciate.

    One additional extremely nit-picky bit of praise I have for TND- the gunbarrel blood as seen in the cinema was a richer red than in GE. The blood in GE was too dark/maroonish in the cinema (the VHS and DVD versions brightened it considerably), yet in TND Kleinman brings it back to it's traditional glory. Now if only he could do the same for the Craigs.
  • SzonanaSzonana Mexico
    Posts: 1,130
    Yesterday i watched this film again and i had such great fun, I forgot how great this Pre Tittless secuence was , one of the most exciting. Like @Totheright said its a mini film but with a few elements of the real plot.

    While Pierce was still great in Goldeneye he looked much more confident this time and improved in his dramatic scenes.
    The cool ladies man he had it perfectly right since Goldeneye but the more dramatic side needed a lot of improvements which happened in Tomorrow never dies.


  • Posts: 19,339
    The last time I watched this it actually,for the first time,lost about 2 rankings,just purely because of the mid-section of the film and the way it loses its way at the end.


    The only saving grace for the end scene for me is the grenade trap Bond sets,when he is cornered by the giant gun,which he can release from a distance.
    That looks like a clever navy trick,which fits in well with Bond of course.

    It's currently dropped to #14,sandwiched between DN above it and GF below it.

    I have always had a soft spot for it ,and Arnold's score is brilliant,so im sure it will climb again with the next viewing.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    edited April 2017 Posts: 9,020
    TND is the last truly fun Bond film that also is great and feels like 100% Bond.
    Only SP comes close in that regard.

    Carver is my favourite villain really. Definitely Top 3 at least.

    Arnold score is fantastic.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    TND has ranked in the second quartile for me recently. It's not particularly outstanding, but it does have the incredible BMW and car chase, a cracking Arnold score (his best theme by far, it's a shame Surrender was not the title song), and Brosnan's smoothest performance (I think he was directed better in GE, but looks and moves better in TND)
  • Posts: 1,909
    I've always enjoyed TND as my favorite Brosnan film partly because it's fun the way a Bond film should be despite being pure formula with the potential WWIII angle yet again and not much depth.

    In its favor is the most downplayed "this time it's personal" angle. Paris is there, she's gone and Bond goes on with the mission. The Hamburg Break-in/Break-out, as it's called on the soundtrack, is one of the most underrated scenes for its pure escapism. We have spying, daring escapes, action and humor in nice doses.

    Arnold's score was so fresh at the time as well and the action is the best of Brosnan's four films for me. Spottiswoode does a nice job. It makes one wonder how much better this film could've been if it wasn't so rushed and had a troubled history.
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