The Next American President Thread (2016)

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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    Trump is his worst enemy though, and is more than likely to take the knife out and start jabbing himself at any moment.

    Watch for the media to pile it on between the Convention end and the first debate to get the numbers back on a more favourable footing. Watch the markets as well (we're getting an unlikely summer bump precisely in order to showcase the 'rosey' scenarios for the economy, but I'd strongly advise being out of equities this fall, particularly if Trump is close).
    From my post on July 26th.

    This is playing out exactly as expected with all the angles in place. They put the bait out there and he took it (and he did it on Stephanopoulos of all places, just like he did on Matthews during the primary). Brave, but also stupid as stupid can be. If he doesn't get more disciplined, he will be beaten very badly this fall.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    edited August 2016 Posts: 7,988

    Yes, the video is a criticism of left-wing rhetoric and how it reduces debate down to a simply 'agree or disagree' question.
    No, the video says it's criticising 'the left' (for whatever that may be) and coming up with empty accusations like 'you (gay people) keep finding these people (Christians who don't like gay people) who don't want to do it so that you can focus the spotlight on them'. This is just a false accusation. And perhaps you haven't understood the constitution of America, but therein is written that all people are treated equal.
    One example the guy uses (along with others) is gay marriage. Gay marriage is a huge debate with many arguments and perspectives, but the left (including Bill Maher) reduces it to a simple issue of 'are you against love, or not?' Which is overly simplistic and reductionist.
    So simplification is a bad thing so this guy therefore simplifies and it's fair?
    That was the point of the video. Ironically, you seem to have made the exact same mistake by labelling the video 'anti-gay' and me, the poster, as some kind of bigot. Its what we call a 'smear and jeer' argument.
    What this video does is claim the left 'simplify' a discussion, which the person in the video finds appaling. Apparently missing the fact that simplification is a style of comedy. Then he himself generalises all gays (talking about simplification!) and claims they're antagonising Christians on purpose. All of them. And you don't understand how this is seen as an anti gay rant?

    Ok, I'll try to explain it:
    generalising all gays (1)
    Claiming they're purposefully antigonising Christians (2)

    makes...?

    gays are unfriendly whing people who are trying to get everyone to live their way....

    Of course he doesn't say that last bit because then everybody would understand it was actually all anti gay in the first place...

    Another thing: you, personally, have claimed before that all gays were wild party animals. Then, when @Gustav told you he actually is gay and not much of a party animal, you called him an exception because you imagined all gays were like that.
    No one even knows if gays want to get married or not. From my perspective they're always out late at night partying. The married life doesn't really suit that kind of lifestyle.

    Nope, sure gays don't want to get married, for they fight for things they actually don't want. That's why this has been an issue all that time.

    Now if I'd ended that last line with 'they only do it to antagonise Christians', would you actually have thought I had a point?

  • edited August 2016 Posts: 1,631
    bondjames wrote: »
    Doesn't the person on the video have a right to make his point about simplification of political discourse? I thought that point was quite salient. He is doing it satirically, which was clearly stated at the beginning of the video.

    How is this different from Charlie Hebdo? Those cartoonists had a right to free speech and so does the gentleman in the video.

    The man in the video has every right to present his views in the public forum. Nobody has suggested otherwise. Likewise, those with a dissenting view, or those that find his views and/or presentation of those views to be extremely lacking have the exact same right to speak out against it.

    Free speech is another one of those areas where people try to twist things around in the interest of defending themselves while engaging in political discourse. Freedom of speech, at least in terms of the American system (since we are discussing an American election) is only designed to protect the speaker from legal action from the government. The government cannot jail you for speaking. That does not extend to the private sector, as speech is not protected from criticism, only from legal action by the government.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2016 Posts: 23,883
    dalton wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Doesn't the person on the video have a right to make his point about simplification of political discourse? I thought that point was quite salient. He is doing it satirically, which was clearly stated at the beginning of the video.

    How is this different from Charlie Hebdo? Those cartoonists had a right to free speech and so does the gentleman in the video.

    The man in the video has every right to present his views in the public forum. Nobody has suggested otherwise. Likewise, those with a dissenting view, or those that find his views and/or presentation of those views to be extremely lacking have the exact same right to speak out against it.

    Free speech is another one of those areas where people try to twist things around in the interest of defending themselves while engaging in political discourse. Freedom of speech, at least in terms of the American system (since we are discussing an American election) is only designed to protect the speaker from legal action from the government. The government cannot jail you for speaking. That does not extend to the private sector, as speech is not protected from criticism, only from legal action by the government.
    I agree and I did not suggest that people didn't have a right to criticize the video. He is presenting satire, which by its very nature can be criticized. I was objecting to what appeared to be personal attacks against @Mendes4Lyfe including insinuation about his motives. That was an unnecessary and unsubstantiated overreaction in my view, and it appeared to be concerted.

    If we can't look at satire for what it is, then we're going down a slippery slope where freedom of speech is indeed in question.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,571
    NicNac wrote: »
    It's because the moderators in here have a certain laissez-faire mentality. But I would have blocked you immediately.

    Please feel free to PM me an explanation for that little dig Gustav_Graves, hmm?

    In the mean time, to all and sundry remember this from the terms and conditions -

    you may not post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually oriented or any other material that may violate any applicable laws. If, for any reason, you fail to adhere to this, your admittance to the board maybe subject to short or long term access exclusions.

    So, we are reading and watching guys.


    Pretty Orwellian stuff.

    Nope, just moderating the boards. It's what we do.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 7,988
    NicNac wrote: »
    NicNac wrote: »
    It's because the moderators in here have a certain laissez-faire mentality. But I would have blocked you immediately.

    Please feel free to PM me an explanation for that little dig Gustav_Graves, hmm?

    In the mean time, to all and sundry remember this from the terms and conditions -

    you may not post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually oriented or any other material that may violate any applicable laws. If, for any reason, you fail to adhere to this, your admittance to the board maybe subject to short or long term access exclusions.

    So, we are reading and watching guys.


    Pretty Orwellian stuff.

    Nope, just moderating the boards. It's what we do.
    So that's what Vargas does! ;-)
  • Posts: 11,119
    The great Senator John McCain speaks out. If only this loyal true Republican didn't choose Sarah Palin as his VP, the elections in 2008 could have been much closer. Anyway, I respect him for speaking out like this:
    “It is time for Donald Trump to set the example for our country and the future of the Republican Party. While our Party has bestowed upon him the nomination, it is not accompanied by unfettered license to defame those who are the best among us.”

    “Lastly, I’d like to say to Mr. and Mrs. Khan: thank you for immigrating to America. We’re a better country because of you. And you are certainly right; your son was the best of America, and the memory of his sacrifice will make us a better nation — and he will never be forgotten.”
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Speaking as a Non American, I thought Trump's attitude to the Khan's , was
    Totally despicable :(
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 7,988
    I wonder what this does to the votes of the US military. They usually vote Republican in large numbers, but I can't imagine them letting Trump get away with this.
  • Posts: 1,631
    I wonder what this does to the votes of the US military. They usually vote Republican in large numbers, but I can't imagine them letting Trump get away with this.

    While it's not a scientific poll that features a margin of error, a poll was conducted of the military, their families, and retired personnel. Gary Johnson actually leads all presidential candidates with 38.7% of the vote. Trump trails him with 31.4%.

    As you said, one has to wonder if this will hurt Trump and, if it does, where do those voters go? Johnson or Clinton (who trailed both Johnson and Trump with 15.3%)?
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,127
    Personally I'm with Trump on this Khan issue. After months of condemning Trump for his fearmongering, you'd think someone on the left would realise that these appeals to emotion should never be the basis of a sound political strategy. But no, apparently emotional manipulation is fair game when the Dems do it.
  • SuperintendentSuperintendent A separate pool. For sharks, no less.
    Posts: 871
    TripAces wrote: »
    I have not read the article yet, Thundy, but yes there are tons of videos and memes and articles painting her as the war mongering murdering evil bitch. Like weird psycho evil. Plenty of those going around. Are they saying she is secretly an alien lizard too? They control the world apparently, according to several folks on the internet.

    That's precisely what she is. She will probably be elected, as many refuse to see the obvious. The military–industrial complex and the same neocons that supported Bush are now backing her.

    https://theintercept.com/2016/07/25/robert-kagan-and-other-neocons-back-hillary-clinton/

    As I said, she will most likely be the next president, but don't act surprised when she continues the interventionist policy and increases the tensions in foreign relations. Perhaps something even worse.


    The MIC is not going to be taken down overnight by any President, not even Bernie. It is what it is. That will not change any time soon. So making a case against HRC because of the MIC is not a good case. The other options are as betrothed to the MIC as she is--or will be very quickly. I guarantee that even Bernie, once faced with the daily briefings, would sell out to military action as needed. Sorry. Just the truth.

    The President's only real job, that can be done by him- or herself, is to nominate judges to the SCOTUS and all federal courts. The next four years are extremely important in terms of enacting and preserving a progressive agenda stateside. HRC WILL nominate liberal justices and WILL do everything in her power to preserve women's rights, workers' rights, and LGBTQ rights. And this is extremely important because SCOTUS justices are LIFETIME appointments!!!

    The next President will shape the SCOTUS for decades to come. Do we really want that person to be Trump? Absolutely not. I do not care if Hillary only serves one term and we see a Republican in 2020, as long as those liberal SCOTUS appointments are made by then.

    You can downplay the neocons and the MIC all you want, but they are supporting Hillary, not Trump. That speaks volumes to me. Besides, Trump is just a clown who uses every opportunity he has to make a fool of himself, and discourage people from voting for him.

    Hillary Clinton in the White House means further tensions with Russia, and I'm afraid the cold war could become a hot war. And that is much, much worse than a conservative SCOTUS judge.

    Since Hillary will become the president, remember this when the s**t hits the fan.

  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Ha ha! Love the wig.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited August 2016 Posts: 4,554
    Another brutal takedown of left-wing rhetoric:


    Brutal, yes. Takedown, no.

    The only dummy here, was McInness. And I knew I was dealing with a moron when he brought welfare into the argument, in reaction to Maher...WHO NEVER MENTIONED WELFARE!!!!

    Give me a break on this "antagonizing Christians." IMHO, they need to be antagonized, continuously, for a BS belief system that has effed up the human race.

    Yes, the video is a criticism of left-wing rhetoric and how it reduces debate down to a simply 'agree or disagree' question. One example the guy uses (along with others) is gay marriage. Gay marriage is a huge debate with many arguments and perspectives, but the left (including Bill Maher) reduces it to a simple issue of 'are you against love, or not?' Which is overly simplistic and reductionist.

    That was the point of the video. Ironically, you seem to have made the exact same mistake by labelling the video 'anti-gay' and me, the poster, as some kind of bigot. Its what we call a 'smear and jeer' argument.

    Because the right doesn't do this? In actuality, Mcinness exposes himself as completely incoherent. This is why the Left wins in the media, in the classroom, in the sciences. because they understand following a course of reasoning. This idiot, in the process of trying to argue against Maher, brings up topics (welfare and gay weddings at churches) that, at least ion the clip he is showing here, NEVER ADDRESSED!!! LMFAO!

    Arguing with conservatives is fun because I like watching their brains get in a pretzel because their own logic tends to come right back on them. They get confused. They are accustomed to making a video (like this) or sitting behind a mic and not being challenged. And then when they are, they can't deal with it.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,554
    TripAces wrote: »
    I have not read the article yet, Thundy, but yes there are tons of videos and memes and articles painting her as the war mongering murdering evil bitch. Like weird psycho evil. Plenty of those going around. Are they saying she is secretly an alien lizard too? They control the world apparently, according to several folks on the internet.

    That's precisely what she is. She will probably be elected, as many refuse to see the obvious. The military–industrial complex and the same neocons that supported Bush are now backing her.

    https://theintercept.com/2016/07/25/robert-kagan-and-other-neocons-back-hillary-clinton/

    As I said, she will most likely be the next president, but don't act surprised when she continues the interventionist policy and increases the tensions in foreign relations. Perhaps something even worse.


    The MIC is not going to be taken down overnight by any President, not even Bernie. It is what it is. That will not change any time soon. So making a case against HRC because of the MIC is not a good case. The other options are as betrothed to the MIC as she is--or will be very quickly. I guarantee that even Bernie, once faced with the daily briefings, would sell out to military action as needed. Sorry. Just the truth.

    The President's only real job, that can be done by him- or herself, is to nominate judges to the SCOTUS and all federal courts. The next four years are extremely important in terms of enacting and preserving a progressive agenda stateside. HRC WILL nominate liberal justices and WILL do everything in her power to preserve women's rights, workers' rights, and LGBTQ rights. And this is extremely important because SCOTUS justices are LIFETIME appointments!!!

    The next President will shape the SCOTUS for decades to come. Do we really want that person to be Trump? Absolutely not. I do not care if Hillary only serves one term and we see a Republican in 2020, as long as those liberal SCOTUS appointments are made by then.

    You can downplay the neocons and the MIC all you want, but they are supporting Hillary, not Trump. That speaks volumes to me. Besides, Trump is just a clown who uses every opportunity he has to make a fool of himself, and discourage people from voting for him.

    Hillary Clinton in the White House means further tensions with Russia, and I'm afraid the cold war could become a hot war. And that is much, much worse than a conservative SCOTUS judge.

    Since Hillary will become the president, remember this when the s**t hits the fan.

    So we should vote for Trump because he's in bed with the Russians?

    Regardless of who else was going to be President, there were going to be (and will always be) tensions with Putin. I am not sure how that is a sound argument against HRC. Seriously.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited August 2016 Posts: 8,127
    I would love to respond to your points @TripAces, really I would, but unfortunately the mods told me to change my behaviour and attitude, so I'm not allowed. Please contact @Benny and @NicNac for clarification on this, they won't give me any. Feel free to insult me in any way you see fit. Goodbye.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,554
    I would love to respond to your points @TripAces, really I would, but unfortunately the mods told me to change my behaviour and attitude, so I'm not allowed. Please contact @Benny and @NicNac for clarification on this, they won't give me any. Feel free to insult me in any way you see fit. Goodbye.

    Well, I wasn't arguing you, personally...just the video you presented.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,127
    TripAces wrote: »
    I would love to respond to your points @TripAces, really I would, but unfortunately the mods told me to change my behaviour and attitude, so I'm not allowed. Please contact @Benny and @NicNac for clarification on this, they won't give me any. Feel free to insult me in any way you see fit. Goodbye.

    Well, I wasn't arguing you, personally...just the video you presented.

    Still, I got complaints. My speech is inappropriate. Why not just attack me for fun?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,569
    @Mendes4Lyfe

    Adding childishness to your list of unsympathetic displays in this thread?
    @Benny and @NicNac speak a language the rest of us, members, understand. It's called forum decency. As usual, conflicting opinions, especially on a political subject, cannot be resolved. Smart people give it a rest after a while, troublemakers keep going. We're watching you and we're watching everybody, twice as closely in a political thread. Because the rules are simple; when our forum peace is threatened, troublemakers are reprimanded once before we ban them. Doesn't matter who started it or who's guilty of what. We're not going to allow this forum reach civil war, and certainly not over that loopy carnival called American politics.

    See, we're taking lessons from Trump. We don't need proof of something; if we don't like you, if your name sounds a bit funny to us, we can brand you a troublemaker and push you outside the walls of these forums. By the way, getting rid of troublemakers is enough to solve ALL of our troubles. Every Redneck understands that. Mods can say whatever they want; we can say something now and something else entirely tomorrow. Doesn't matter. We'll just write a juicy hate speech and fat Luda May, boozehound Bufford and toothless Morty will give us an applause. So you see, we're basically class-A fascists here but hey, the majority of our members is cheering for us so that's good enough.

    Seriously though, if a mod asks you to play by the rules, laid out by the hosts of this forum, you respectfully agree or you find yourself another forum. It's called politeness.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited August 2016 Posts: 8,127
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    @Mendes4Lyfe

    Adding childishness to your list of unsympathetic displays in this thread?
    @Benny and @NicNac speak a language the rest of us, members, understand. It's called forum decency. As usual, conflicting opinions, especially on a political subject, cannot be resolved. Smart people give it a rest after a while, troublemakers keep going. We're watching you and we're watching everybody, twice as closely in a political thread. Because the rules are simple; when our forum peace is threatened, troublemakers are reprimanded once before we ban them. Doesn't matter who started it or who's guilty of what. We're not going to allow this forum reach civil war, and certainly not over that loopy carnival called American politics.

    See, we're taking lessons from Trump. We don't need proof of something; if we don't like you, if your name sounds a bit funny to us, we can brand you a troublemaker and push you outside the walls of these forums. By the way, getting rid of troublemakers is enough to solve ALL of our troubles. Every Redneck understands that. Mods can say whatever they want; we can say something now and something else entirely tomorrow. Doesn't matter. We'll just write a juicy hate speech and fat Luda May, boozehound Bufford and toothless Morty will give us an applause. So you see, we're basically class-A fascists here but hey, the majority of our members is cheering for us so that's good enough.

    Seriously though, if a mod asks you to play by the rules, laid out by the hosts of this forum, you respectfully agree or you find yourself another forum. It's called politeness.

    Believe me, you have no idea. Condemn me if you like, I understand. Talk about unsympathetic, you still have no idea what's going on right now.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    @Mendes4Lyfe

    Adding childishness to your list of unsympathetic displays in this thread?
    @Benny and @NicNac speak a language the rest of us, members, understand. It's called forum decency. As usual, conflicting opinions, especially on a political subject, cannot be resolved. Smart people give it a rest after a while, troublemakers keep going. We're watching you and we're watching everybody, twice as closely in a political thread. Because the rules are simple; when our forum peace is threatened, troublemakers are reprimanded once before we ban them. Doesn't matter who started it or who's guilty of what. We're not going to allow this forum reach civil war, and certainly not over that loopy carnival called American politics.

    See, we're taking lessons from Trump. We don't need proof of something; if we don't like you, if your name sounds a bit funny to us, we can brand you a troublemaker and push you outside the walls of these forums. By the way, getting rid of troublemakers is enough to solve ALL of our troubles. Every Redneck understands that. Mods can say whatever they want; we can say something now and something else entirely tomorrow. Doesn't matter. We'll just write a juicy hate speech and fat Luda May, boozehound Bufford and toothless Morty will give us an applause. So you see, we're basically class-A fascists here but hey, the majority of our members is cheering for us so that's good enough.

    Seriously though, if a mod asks you to play by the rules, laid out by the hosts of this forum, you respectfully agree or you find yourself another forum. It's called politeness.

    Great post @DarthDimi. I would also add that if you are a forum troublemaker, you look more imbecilic than ever when you spend all your time spewing disparaging words upon others in your posts, then, when someone calmly tells you to cool it, you act the victim of oppression and try to convince us all to throw a pity party for you, pretending you haven't been a bellend since the day you joined. That's the most pathetic response I've seen thus far.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited August 2016 Posts: 8,127
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    @Mendes4Lyfe

    Adding childishness to your list of unsympathetic displays in this thread?
    @Benny and @NicNac speak a language the rest of us, members, understand. It's called forum decency. As usual, conflicting opinions, especially on a political subject, cannot be resolved. Smart people give it a rest after a while, troublemakers keep going. We're watching you and we're watching everybody, twice as closely in a political thread. Because the rules are simple; when our forum peace is threatened, troublemakers are reprimanded once before we ban them. Doesn't matter who started it or who's guilty of what. We're not going to allow this forum reach civil war, and certainly not over that loopy carnival called American politics.

    See, we're taking lessons from Trump. We don't need proof of something; if we don't like you, if your name sounds a bit funny to us, we can brand you a troublemaker and push you outside the walls of these forums. By the way, getting rid of troublemakers is enough to solve ALL of our troubles. Every Redneck understands that. Mods can say whatever they want; we can say something now and something else entirely tomorrow. Doesn't matter. We'll just write a juicy hate speech and fat Luda May, boozehound Bufford and toothless Morty will give us an applause. So you see, we're basically class-A fascists here but hey, the majority of our members is cheering for us so that's good enough.

    Seriously though, if a mod asks you to play by the rules, laid out by the hosts of this forum, you respectfully agree or you find yourself another forum. It's called politeness.

    Great post @DarthDimi. I would also add that if you are a forum troublemaker, you look more imbecilic than ever when you spend all your time spewing disparaging words upon others in your posts, then, when someone calmly tells you to cool it, you act the victim of oppression and try to convince us all to throw a pity party for you, pretending you haven't been a bellend since the day you joined. That's the most pathetic response I've seen thus far.

    Never a truer word spoken. I also don't like the fact that you left out my name. He's talking about me, everybody!
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691
    Personally, I do not believe in free speech any more than I believe in free driving. Both need limits set on them, or abuse & injury can be the result.
    If one cannot be civil, one should find site where such behaviour is considered appropriate (or at least tolerated). I like this place civil.
  • Posts: 1,296
    Please try to cool off @Mendes4Lyfe, we are all willing a second chance I know it but from one friend to another I think for now you should take a break from the policitcal threads and just stick to Bond. I like you but you have to stay calm and remember , it's ok if someone else doesn't like you.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,127
    IGUANNA wrote: »
    Please try to cool off @Mendes4Lyfe, we are all willing a second chance I know it but from one friend to another I think for now you should take a break from the policitcal threads and just stick to Bond. I like you but you have to stay calm and remember , it's ok if someone else doesn't like you.

    You know, I wouldn't believe you if you weren't a venusaur. ~O)
  • Posts: 1,631

    I guess Trump knew what he was talking about when he made his "5th Avenue" comment, judging from the first link. ;)
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,459
    I tried to give a slight variety to those links.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691
    Thanks, interesting. One of my friends in DC goes to his store, ain't that the s**t??
    :))
This discussion has been closed.