Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    I never did understand this "Craig's Bond isn't the same Bond as other Bonds". Craig's Bond has a Gunbarrel sequence, uses the same Bond theme, same cars/gadgets as previous Bonds, uses themes/songs from previous Bonds. I think Craig's Bond is the younger version of all five Bonds, since he started with CR...which is a prequel. So Craig's Bond is still the same Bond as other Bonds. Interesting that Craig's Bond which is a prequel, ends with him dying, then subsequent Bond films like DN-DAD shows James Bond alive till the end. So it makes Craig's Bond dying, sort of tricky.

    Doesn’t really make sense that way, because he meets Felix Leiter for the first time in DN… so how could CR work as a prequel if he’s meeting Felix for the first time there?

    This is why I have no trouble with regarding Craig’s run being a reboot. Undoubtedly the next guy will reboot too, but whether that actually continues on with the guy after him and so on is something we won’t know for another 20 years.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 1,368
    I never did understand this "Craig's Bond isn't the same Bond as other Bonds". Craig's Bond has a Gunbarrel sequence, uses the same Bond theme, same cars/gadgets as previous Bonds, uses themes/songs from previous Bonds. I think Craig's Bond is the younger version of all five Bonds, since he started with CR...which is a prequel. So Craig's Bond is still the same Bond as other Bonds. Interesting that Craig's Bond which is a prequel, ends with him dying, then subsequent Bond films like DN-DAD shows James Bond alive till the end. So it makes Craig's Bond dying, sort of tricky.

    Doesn’t really make sense that way, because he meets Felix Leiter for the first time in DN… so how could CR work as a prequel if he’s meeting Felix for the first time there?

    This is why I have no trouble with regarding Craig’s run being a reboot. Undoubtedly the next guy will reboot too, but whether that actually continues on with the guy after him and so on is something we won’t know for another 20 years.

    I feel CR being Fleming's first James Bond novel, makes the film a prequel. Plus, Craig's Bond angry young man take in CR, cements the film's prequel status.
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Not a red herring
    edited May 2023 Posts: 565
    My head canon had always been that all the Bonds had similar adventures in their past. Even with Craig, he probably had a ton of adventures between QOS and SF similar to the Bond films we saw. It’s not exactly 1:1, because Craig couldn’t have faced off Blofeld already and such.

    Brosnan Bond simply couldn’t have had existed as a 00 agent in 1962, but he’s old enough to be considered a “veteran of the Cold War” since he could have had those kinds of adventures in the 1980s. By the time we get to Craig, that might have stretched it. The next Bond we get in BOND 26 certainly could NOT have been a Cold War agent by any stretch of the imagination. That’s unless they decide to go period piece.

    That's pretty much where I am with this. The Craig reboot actually came at the perfect time since he was the first Bond who was too young to have served during the Cold War, so it's not too much of a stretch to imagine Connery-Brosnan all having had similar (or the same) adventures during that roughly 30-year period (62-91).

    And yes, maybe Craig had some of the same adventures between QOS and SF (or even between SF and SP), though obviously nothing involving SPECTRE or the Soviets.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 7,980
    I have always thought that there are 3 Bonds; I base this on the age of the actors and the fact that the movies are set in the present . Connery, Lazenby and Moore are the same Bond; so the Bond in Dr. No is the same as the Bond in AVTAK. The next incarnation is Dalton and Brosnan ; the Bond in LD is the same as in DAD. Any actor carried over from the previous era is, like Dench, playing a different version of their character. Then we have Craig, who had a much more clearly defined, separate universe. Yes, supporting actors from the Craig era could be carried over to the next incarnation, my preference is that the not be.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited May 2023 Posts: 2,928
    There definitely have to have been many major missions in CraigBond's career between QOS and SF. When Silva asks 'Is there any of the old James Bond left?' he can't just be talking about the events of CR and QOS. In NTTD, Bond and Felix haven't met since at least before SP (as Felix had only 'heard' about Madeleine and Matera, five years previously) but when the trawler's sinking Bond says 'We've been in worse than this' - he can't have been talking just about the Bolivian dive bar in QOS! Those unfilmed CraigBond missions will always be the ones that got away for me.
  • edited May 2023 Posts: 1,517
    For me a literary character like Bond doesn't age. I don't think of the Bond in DN as approaching 100 years old now. Each Bond is who he is in his present time. The age of each Bond actor is irrelevant.

    As for attempting to sort out a continuity, there isn't one. That went out the window with OHMSS, despite a few halfhearted attempts to suggest there is. Craig's reboot beginning with CR erases all previous Bond films and their histories. There simply is no way to splice Craig's films together with his predecessors.

    Since the next Bond is not going to be a past Bond, there is no reason earlier films cannot be remade. Throughout the history of the series, the better films have been those that hewed closer to Fleming's stories, rather than the made up stories by screenwriters.

    For example, if DN were to be remade, would today's hipper, younger audiences care? Most probably haven't seen DN anyway, nor are they likely to. When one comments on this site that PB was one's first Bond, remakes shouldn't make a bit of difference.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited May 2023 Posts: 2,928
    Agreed - anyone trying to reconcile continuities between the 25 films and the various actors will end up doing their nut (er, in the British sense, I hasten to add!). EON themselves rarely attempted it pre-Craig and completely failed on a few memorable occasions (the YOLT/OHMSS chronology, etc). Better just to enjoy the films for what they are, no?
  • mattjoesmattjoes Kicking: Impossible
    Posts: 6,728
    Moonraker (Lewis Gilbert, 1979) is the only real Bond film. All the others were fantasies, daydreams in Bond's mind when he was losing consciousness aboard that accelerating centrifuge trainer.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited May 2023 Posts: 8,025
    I never did understand this "Craig's Bond isn't the same Bond as other Bonds". Craig's Bond has a Gunbarrel sequence, uses the same Bond theme, same cars/gadgets as previous Bonds, uses themes/songs from previous Bonds. I think Craig's Bond is the younger version of all five Bonds, since he started with CR...which is a prequel. So Craig's Bond is still the same Bond as other Bonds. Interesting that Craig's Bond which is a prequel, ends with him dying, then subsequent Bond films like DN-DAD shows James Bond alive till the end. So it makes Craig's Bond dying, sort of tricky.

    Doesn’t really make sense that way, because he meets Felix Leiter for the first time in DN… so how could CR work as a prequel if he’s meeting Felix for the first time there?

    This is why I have no trouble with regarding Craig’s run being a reboot. Undoubtedly the next guy will reboot too, but whether that actually continues on with the guy after him and so on is something we won’t know for another 20 years.

    I feel CR being Fleming's first James Bond novel, makes the film a prequel. Plus, Craig's Bond angry young man take in CR, cements the film's prequel status.

    Given how the rest of Craig’s run turned out, CR was clearly not a prequel to the first 20 films.
  • LucknFateLucknFate 007 In New York
    edited May 2023 Posts: 1,430
    I always get the impression that someone who is upset over Bond actor/character continuity unfortunately may not have had any relationship with theater or story-telling growing up, because new actors play storied characters in reinterpretations of varying continuity every day. How many times have how many Shakespeare plays been cast and recast. Each new Bond actor, and new Bond film for that matter, is no different. Each actor is lucky to receive the call each time, etc. because someone else can always play the role. Bond is forever.

    Consider it a relief that it doesn't have to matter, continuity is ultimately a frivolous battle with time.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 1,368
    I never did understand this "Craig's Bond isn't the same Bond as other Bonds". Craig's Bond has a Gunbarrel sequence, uses the same Bond theme, same cars/gadgets as previous Bonds, uses themes/songs from previous Bonds. I think Craig's Bond is the younger version of all five Bonds, since he started with CR...which is a prequel. So Craig's Bond is still the same Bond as other Bonds. Interesting that Craig's Bond which is a prequel, ends with him dying, then subsequent Bond films like DN-DAD shows James Bond alive till the end. So it makes Craig's Bond dying, sort of tricky.

    Doesn’t really make sense that way, because he meets Felix Leiter for the first time in DN… so how could CR work as a prequel if he’s meeting Felix for the first time there?

    This is why I have no trouble with regarding Craig’s run being a reboot. Undoubtedly the next guy will reboot too, but whether that actually continues on with the guy after him and so on is something we won’t know for another 20 years.

    I feel CR being Fleming's first James Bond novel, makes the film a prequel. Plus, Craig's Bond angry young man take in CR, cements the film's prequel status.

    Given how the rest of Craig’s run turned out, CR was clearly not a prequel to the first 20 films.

    Yeah. It's quite complex though.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 1,368
    LucknFate wrote: »
    I always get the impression that someone who is upset over Bond actor/character continuity unfortunately may not have had any relationship with theater or story-telling growing up, because new actors play storied characters in reinterpretations of varying continuity every day. How many times have how many Shakespeare plays been cast and recast. Each new Bond actor, and new Bond film for that matter, is no different. Each actor is lucky to receive the call each time, etc. because someone else can always play the role. Bond is forever.

    Consider it a relief that it doesn't have to matter, continuity is ultimately a frivolous battle with time.

    Wow! Just wow! I think anyone that has ever posted here, has knowledge and a good relationship with theatre and storytelling, literature, the Golden age of cinema. You could always express your feelings on subject matters, without being antagonistic. I don't think it's necessary, good sir.
  • Posts: 2,900
    I feel at this rate we should get a ‘Into the Spiderverse’ type spin off movie for Bond that will adequately explain all this.... or not.
  • Posts: 3,279
    CrabKey wrote: »
    @MakeshiftPython I count myself among those who did not like the idea of Bond dying.
    Not as a matter of principle, but preference. Craig was insistent Bond dying would end his tenure irrevocably. Yet his predecessors ended their runs without knocking off Bond. Disappointed or not, we all moved on. The connection between each Bond has been flimsy at best. We've long accepted each Bond has his own timeline with little relation to previous Bonds.

    Feelings about the end of NTTD are mixed and disagreement is no doubt permanently baked in. Many feel the end was justified and poignant. Justified yes, given the set up. But was it necessary? Poignant? Not for me. It didn't have the emotional pay off it did for others. In my opinion, killing Bond was the easy way out. The real challenge would have been how to wrap up Craig's tenure if Bond had not died. I've read all the justifications of Bond living on the edge and could be killed at any moment etc. Going out in a literal blaze of glory feels very much like a cliche.

    Imagining Bond enjoying fatherhood and domestic bliss was no doubt a step too far.

    But the writers could have gone back to the source material and given us the ending Fleming wrote in YOLT. That, in my opinion, is the better ending.

    Agree 100%.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2023 Posts: 14,957
    I'm still curious to hear what the non-cliched alternative was, to be honest.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 726
    I think he just gave you two examples. Whether you find them clichéd or not I don’t know, but I believe that is what he was doing.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2023 Posts: 14,957
    What enjoying retirement or disappearing, seemingly dead with M writing his obituary? As I said in my reply to his post: Craig's Bond did the former at the end of the previous film (and the opening of this very film!) and the latter at the beginning of the film before that.
    Imagine all of the complaints about Purvis & Wade repeating themselves if they'd done either.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 726
    I didn’t see the need for any abnormal ending myself. As is often the case with these things I was left unmoved by the actual ending, and going off to retirement would have been equally as toothless for me when I knew that they were planning to keep the character going.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,957
    So what ending would have been acceptable then? Bearing in mind he had already decided to leave the service at the end of Spectre.
  • edited May 2023 Posts: 2,900
    The issue with any 'alternative' endings to NTTD is that the final third of that film is pretty much dedicated to setting up that finale (so Bond having a daughter, reuniting with Madeline, him getting 'nanobotted' by Safin etc.) Change the ending and you'd have to change a chunk of that film.

    If they had done they'd have had a number of dramatic options. Anything ranging from Madeline and Bond parting ways at the end with Bond returning to the Service, to a TDKR-esque version of Bond's 'death'.

    Personally, I can't say whether these would have been more dramatically satisfying than what we got. I nor anyone here knows this for sure. Regardless the ending is designed for that film... for better or for worse (as I like to say).
  • edited May 2023 Posts: 3,279
    mtm wrote: »
    I'm still curious to hear what the non-cliched alternative was, to be honest.

    The ending I would have loved to see would be the final chapter of YOLT (Sparrows Tears). If done correctly, I doubt many would find it cliched. Bond living as a fisherman not knowing who he is, then one day setting off to Russia. That would have been a great ending to the Craig era, and would start nicely for the next actor to play 007 with the opening to TMWTGG.

    Failing that, Madeline plus baggage would not have been part of the story, neither would the female 007 or Safin. Bond would enter the castle of death to kill Blofeld and would escape, with a nice cliched ending of him on a rubber dingy boat with some Bond girl.

    I would have been far happier with either of these endings, and I suspect most Bond fans would be too. Leave the cinema on a high, rather than a depressing downer.

    Judging by how Top Gun 2 turned out, this is the kind of film audiences still really want to see, rather than what Hollywood and Netflix these days think we want to see.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,547
    The way I see it, Bond films are made in relation to their contemporary audiences, not so much the film series. They are inspired by their literary legacy but they don't serve it. The question is rarely "What was he up to last time?"; rather, it's "How does he work in the world today?" I agree with one of the previous posts about every film being something of a small reboot, no matter which characters return.

    I came to this conclusion early on in my life, when I was still a boy in my single digits. How can this man be with other women all the time, I wondered. A tad naive? Perhaps. ;-) I guess it makes sense that the pelvic counter is reset every time. What happened to Honey? Never mind, it's Tatiana now. What happened to Tatiana then? Doesn't matter, it's Pussy now. And so on. I guess that's where I stopped looking for continuity (and I hate that Sylvia gets in my way here...)

    Stan Lee once said that every next issue of Spidey or X-Men has to be able to appeal to a brand new audience. You keep the things that work but you don't pretend any tight continuity. I've always taken the Bonds to be like that. If OP is your first Bond film, you shouldn't have to pre-school yourself on the 12 that came before.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 726
    mtm wrote: »
    So what ending would have been acceptable then? Bearing in mind he had already decided to leave the service at the end of Spectre.

    For me?

    Oh I’d have liked them to completely forget about Spectre the way I’d been trying to do since I’d seen it. I wouldn’t have gone down that whole scorched earth route that reminded me of the end of that season of Dallas that they decided was going to be a dream. Killing Felix, giving Bond a child, then killing Bond… all drama without weight for me.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2023 Posts: 14,957
    mtm wrote: »
    I'm still curious to hear what the non-cliched alternative was, to be honest.

    The ending I would have loved to see would be the final chapter of YOLT (Sparrows Tears). If done correctly, I doubt many would find it cliched. Bond living as a fisherman not knowing who he is, then one day setting off to Russia. That would have been a great ending to the Craig era, and would start nicely for the next actor to play 007 with the opening to TMWTGG.

    It's okay, but it would feel like a mildly massaged re-staging of the opening of Skyfall, and folks have seen that.
    Also, setting off for Russia is a massive cliffhanger, not a final ending. Many audience members would probably have taken it to mean he was going to his certain death anyway, so the rather cliched amnesia stuff would just be a massive detour to get to the same place.
    Failing that, Madeline plus baggage would not have been part of the story, neither would the female 007 or Safin. Bond would enter the castle of death to kill Blofeld and would escape, with a nice cliched ending of him on a rubber dingy boat with some Bond girl.

    That interests me far less to be honest.
    I would have been far happier with either of these endings, and I suspect most Bond fans would be too. Leave the cinema on a high, rather than a depressing downer.

    Judging by how Top Gun 2 turned out, this is the kind of film audiences still really want to see, rather than what Hollywood and Netflix these days think we want to see.

    It's fine to say what you would have personally preferred but I don't think you can speak for everyone else. And yes, some folks will agree with you, but that still doesn't mean 'most agree'.
    mtm wrote: »
    So what ending would have been acceptable then? Bearing in mind he had already decided to leave the service at the end of Spectre.

    For me?

    Oh I’d have liked them to completely forget about Spectre the way I’d been trying to do since I’d seen it.

    I don't know what that means, sorry. Do you mean they should have done the Sp ending again?
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 726
    mtm wrote: »
    I don't know what that means, sorry. Do you mean they should have done the Sp ending again?
    I would have rather that they didn’t do any ‘special ending’ that put Craig’s tenure dramatically apart from the general Bond run.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited May 2023 Posts: 8,501
    mtm wrote: »
    I don't know what that means, sorry. Do you mean they should have done the Sp ending again?
    I would have rather that they didn’t do any ‘special ending’ that put Craig’s tenure dramatically apart from the general Bond run.

    Being a reboot, Craig's tenure was already "dramatically apart from the general Bond run".

    The original series tropes were getting stale again by DAD.

    CR was a jolt to the system that the series needed. Yes, roots were still embedded to the original author's works (and by extension, the films that preceded it), but EoN had never attempted a hard re-boot. By its very nature, it was a new beginning, and didn't have to be too hung up with what came before... therefore leaving creative options open to them that may not have been open to them before (like finally having bullets sink into Bond's flesh; like getting a lover pregnant (as he did in the novel YOLT), and by actually killing the character (unlike Nolan's "having his cake and eating it too" TDKR's ending))...

    Not exploring and stretching will eventually lead to atrophy and decay.

    I love that EoN had the balls to not be satisfied with the same old approach, and they took risks-- whether one likes what they did or not, is another conversation. But there's no denying that they took chances that were not seen in this series prior to the Craig era
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2023 Posts: 14,957
    Thing is though, he retired at the end of the previous one, so Fukunaga had no choice but to do an ending drawing the line under Craig's Bond (he can't just be in MI6 again forever and kiss a girl), and it had to be a different ending to the previous one.
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    This is just off the top of my head, but did Craig have every variation of an ending?
    1. Get the bad guy in the last second.
    2. Little coda to the actual story to tie off a larger plotline
    3. Back in the saddle, off to the next mission
    4. Get the girl, drive off in the car
    5. Death

    He doesn't have a sex-scene ending, which I guess is a huge omission from the Bond franchise's stand-point, but I'll cheat and say that just counts as "get the girl".
    The only other one I could think off is a cliff-hanger and while I know that some here would have wanted that for NTTD, for me it would have been the exactly wrong note to end Craig's tenure on and is just not really something that Bond films do.
  • Posts: 3,279
    The only other one I could think off is a cliff-hanger and while I know that some here would have wanted that for NTTD, for me it would have been the exactly wrong note to end Craig's tenure on and is just not really something that Bond films do.
    Bond films don't usually kill off Bond either, so they took massive risks. Having a cliffhanger is arguably less of a risk than killing off the main character.

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    A cliffhanger would have only worked if Craig not only had a different film from NTTD but an entirely different run of films. As it was, there was way too much baggage with Craig’s Bond that I wouldn’t have wanted with the new Bond.
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