Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,129
    We must always remember that these are actors interpreting a role.
    I don’t think any actor has fully been the character of fiction as written for any writer.
    Unless the writer of the character is playing the role.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,787
    Benny wrote: »
    We must always remember that these are actors interpreting a role.
    I don’t think any actor has fully been the character of fiction as written for any writer.
    Unless the writer of the character is playing the role.

    I wished Fleming played James Bond, I mean in CBS in Climax 1954, instead of Barry Nelson.
  • edited March 2023 Posts: 6,709
    I think Dalton was the only actor who really got a grip on the Fleming Bond character. I would argue he knew the character better than anyone, as he researched the Fleming books meticulously.

    I wholeheartedly agree with you, @jetsetwilly. I remember when Dalton was at his first press conference as Bond, smoking stylishly and talking about having read the books (anyone has that video? I think it's on the dvd's special features). He definitely knows the character well. Just have a look at the 2.20m mark on this other video.

  • edited March 2023 Posts: 4,110
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Phoebe Waller-Bridge admits James Bond producers rejected her early ideas for No Time To Die screenplay because they were 'too camp'

    'I should naturally have done a lot of Bond research... I didn't do a huge amount of research for it,'
    'I'm not very good at homework. That says a lot. Sometimes it is frustrating when you say, "I think this is genius," and they are like, "Next time."'

    'It is fun playing in someone else's sandpit for a while as you learn stuff,' she added. 'I certainly learned what my Bond film would be like.
    'I learned how mine might have been slightly too camp. A bit misogynistic really. Daniel [Craig] knows that character better than anyone"


    Firstly, I know we as fans care too much about the series, but these sort of quotes frustrate me. How do you get to write for a prestigious series like Bond and not care enough to do your homework.

    Honestly you could tell watching the scenes PWB had a hand in writing (M scene, Blofeld, Cuba scenes, in particular) because the interactions were so jarring between characters, they felt like entirely different characters.

    So going forwards I hope EON employ writers who care enough to do their homework, not just use these iconic characters to tell the stories they choose.

    I disagree with that statement.....

    Based on what?

    Just my opinion, but I don't think it that way, I mean is Craig really knows the character better than anyone? Sounds to me like an exaggeration.

    For me personally, I just don't believe that Craig knows the character better than anyone, he did played the character well, but knows the character better than anyone?

    As much as I liked Craig as an actor, but this opinion is a bit too far.

    I think Dalton was the only actor who really got a grip on the Fleming Bond character. I would argue he knew the character better than anyone, as he researched the Fleming books meticulously.

    After that I'd probably say Connery, as he spent time with Fleming, and had to create and adapt the screen character from scratch, as there was nothing before it to compare to.

    He understood the essence of the character, and it also helped that he embodied many of the characteristics naturally, without needing to act.

    Craig's interpretation was not bad, but I never really saw the Fleming Bond much. In NTTD the exchange two hander scene with Blofeld is probably the most far removed moment from the Fleming Bond that I have ever seen on film. Yes, it is even further removed than all the tongue-in-cheek moments from the Moore era, and the OTT amateur dramatics from the Brosnan era.

    That one scene alone in NTTD concluded for me that Craig didn't really understand Bond as much as he claimed he did.

    Connery's an odd one because while he was the only Bond to know Fleming personally he admitted himself that'd he'd only read two of the novels (I'm not even sure if he particularly enjoyed them) and even called Fleming 'a snob'. In a sense it was that streak of rebelliousness towards the literary character, that idea that he was going into it with a more tongue in cheek attitude (making fun of it as he himself said) that really made his Bond. Hell, it's what made the cinematic Bond and is there in all of the actor's portrayals in some form. I suspect much of that approach had to do with Young and the producers, who I know had read the novels and understood where to deviate while maintaining the essence of the novels.

    Personally, I think any new actor should read the Fleming novels and try to understand the literary character, but use it as a way to help shape their own individual portrayal of Bond. And to be fair I get the sense Craig did this, much as his performance in NTTD can be a bit odd at times (I certainly get the literary Bond most distinctly with SF and bits of CR). I mean, no actor's portrayal of Bond is going to be 100% Fleming anyway and probably can't. Even Dalton's Bond deviated slightly and adopted things like the quippy one liners of the films, and indeed going on a personal vendetta which seems to be very much a motif of the post '89 Bond films. I can't see Fleming's blunt instrument doing quite the same thing in that context.
  • Posts: 3,327
    007HallY wrote: »
    [Even Dalton's Bond deviated slightly and adopted things like the quippy one liners of the films, and indeed going on a personal vendetta which seems to be very much a motif of the post '89 Bond films. I can't see Fleming's blunt instrument doing quite the same thing in that context.
    There are occasions in the books when the revenge impulse comes into play with Bond. There are fleeting moments throughout all the novels, but probably the closest to personal vendetta is Bond going after Blofeld in YOLT.
  • edited March 2023 Posts: 4,110
    007HallY wrote: »
    [Even Dalton's Bond deviated slightly and adopted things like the quippy one liners of the films, and indeed going on a personal vendetta which seems to be very much a motif of the post '89 Bond films. I can't see Fleming's blunt instrument doing quite the same thing in that context.
    There are occasions in the books when the revenge impulse comes into play with Bond. There are fleeting moments throughout all the novels, but probably the closest to personal vendetta is Bond going after Blofeld in YOLT.

    Yes, it's there too when Bond kills the Robber in LALD. I probably didn't write that as clearly as I could have though. I guess what I was trying to say was Fleming's Bond wasn't one to go 'off grid' or rogue as much as he does in the films. Even begrudgingly he was a man who essentially did his duty and followed the orders of Her Majesty's Government. Even when he transgressed from protocol often it was M who ordered this or at least gave him the go ahead (TB and OHMSS are the examples which come to mind). I think the only time he disobeyed an order was in the TLD short story. Even his decision to kill Blofeld in YOLT is very much part of his official mission (he just neglects to inform Tanaka about Blofeld's identity), as is him killing Robber.

    I can't imagine Fleming's Bond going on a personal vendetta mission which would have involved him giving up his double 0 status and going on the run from his own Government. Much as Leiter is an ally of his I'm not sure if that friendship in the novels ever trumped his sense of duty. It's the same thing in CR when Bond breaks into M's flat and conducts an investigation by himself. Much as these things work in the movies they don't necessarily come from the books (which is fine).
  • Posts: 1,973
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Phoebe Waller-Bridge admits James Bond producers rejected her early ideas for No Time To Die screenplay because they were 'too camp'

    'I should naturally have done a lot of Bond research... I didn't do a huge amount of research for it,'
    'I'm not very good at homework. That says a lot. Sometimes it is frustrating when you say, "I think this is genius," and they are like, "Next time."'

    'It is fun playing in someone else's sandpit for a while as you learn stuff,' she added. 'I certainly learned what my Bond film would be like.
    'I learned how mine might have been slightly too camp. A bit misogynistic really. Daniel [Craig] knows that character better than anyone"


    Firstly, I know we as fans care too much about the series, but these sort of quotes frustrate me. How do you get to write for a prestigious series like Bond and not care enough to do your homework.

    Honestly you could tell watching the scenes PWB had a hand in writing (M scene, Blofeld, Cuba scenes, in particular) because the interactions were so jarring between characters, they felt like entirely different characters.

    So going forwards I hope EON employ writers who care enough to do their homework, not just use these iconic characters to tell the stories they choose.

    I disagree with that statement.....

    Based on what?

    Just my opinion, but I don't think it that way, I mean is Craig really knows the character better than anyone? Sounds to me like an exaggeration.

    For me personally, I just don't believe that Craig knows the character better than anyone, he did played the character well, but knows the character better than anyone?

    As much as I liked Craig as an actor, but this opinion is a bit too far.

    I think Dalton was the only actor who really got a grip on the Fleming Bond character. I would argue he knew the character better than anyone, as he researched the Fleming books meticulously.

    After that I'd probably say Connery, as he spent time with Fleming, and had to create and adapt the screen character from scratch, as there was nothing before it to compare to.

    He understood the essence of the character, and it also helped that he embodied many of the characteristics naturally, without needing to act.

    Craig's interpretation was not bad, but I never really saw the Fleming Bond much. In NTTD the exchange two hander scene with Blofeld is probably the most far removed moment from the Fleming Bond that I have ever seen on film. Yes, it is even further removed than all the tongue-in-cheek moments from the Moore era, and the OTT amateur dramatics from the Brosnan era.

    That one scene alone in NTTD concluded for me that Craig didn't really understand Bond as much as he claimed he did.

    TLD is one of my favorites, and I love Dalton's portrayal. He had the advantage--as did Craig and Connery--to launch his Bond with a pretty close Fleming adaptation. Strawberry jam and all.

    But I never got the impression that Connery was trying to follow Fleming's Bond. It's as if he had his own swagger.

    The others (except for Lazenby, who squandered it) never had that Fleming opportunity.

    Connery had stated that he found the Bond character in the books dull, so he had to add some swagger in the character, and it's been said that Connery's Bond was actually the wish fulfillment of Terrence Young, it's his version of the character, he had wanted for Connery to play it, and Connery added swagger in it.

    If the literary Bond lacks swagger, how is swagger actually conveyed in a novel? I am trying to parse the comment attributed to SC.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,279
    If Fleming's Bond seems "establishment," Connery's Bond is "anti-establishment." It's all about the '50s vs. the '60s. And yet I think Fleming helped usher in the counterculture '60s. You can feel the culture turning in the film GF. Connery is just cooler in it than everyone around him (the Beatles quip aside).
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    And the following may also be a wrench in the development works:

    A writer’s strike is mobilizing (I believe the contract deadline is May 1; it hasn’t been looking positive for quite some time and the drums to put pens down has been getting loud).

    https://www.wrapbook.com/blog/wga-strike
  • Bentley007Bentley007 Manitoba, Canada
    Posts: 575
    Could this lead them to look at a Director that also has a history of writing their own films?
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,196
    peter wrote: »
    And the following may also be a wrench in the development works:

    A writer’s strike is mobilizing (I believe the contract deadline is May 1; it hasn’t been looking positive for quite some time and the drums to put pens down has been getting loud).

    https://www.wrapbook.com/blog/wga-strike

    So what’s the problem? Just look a Quantum of Solace; wait, scratch that.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    Could this lead them to look at a Director that also has a history of writing their own films?

    @Bentley007 , no because the the director will also be a member of the WGA.

    @talos7 — nicely played, 😂
  • LucknFateLucknFate 007 In New York
    edited March 2023 Posts: 1,638
    Here's the list from the Bond 26 Title thread of Fleming/Eon -related potential Bond titles, if we want to discuss how they want to market the first Bond film with a new actor or prospective stories to tell:
    Fleming/Eon Inspiration List:

    007 In New York
    Agent Under Fire
    All The Time In The World
    Blood And Thunder
    Bloodstone
    By Royal Command
    By Royal Decree
    Cards With A Stranger
    Carte Blanche
    Choice Of Weapons
    Colonel Sun
    Death Is So Permanent
    Death Of An Agent
    Death To Spies
    Devil May Care
    Enjoying Death
    Everything Or Nothing
    For Special Services
    For The Sake Of Traitors
    Garden Of Death
    Hell Will Endure
    Icebreaker
    License Renewed
    Mindfield (James Bond Jr.)
    Mr. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang
    Murder On Wheels
    Never Dream Of Dying
    Never Send Flowers
    Nightfire
    No Good About Goodbye
    Nobody Lives Forever
    Once Upon A Spy
    Per Fine Ounce
    Property Of A Lady
    Provocateur
    Red Sky At Night
    Red Underground
    Resurrection
    Risico
    Role Of Honor
    Russian Roulette
    Shatterhand
    Shaken Not Stirred
    Shamelady
    Show Of Force
    Silverfin
    Slay It With Flowers
    Solstice
    Some Kind Of Hero
    Talk Of The Devil
    The Belles Of Hell
    The Dead Are Alive
    The Death Collector
    The Elegant Venus
    The Eye That Never Sleeps
    The Hildebrand Rarity
    The Machinery Of Evil
    The Nature Of Evil
    The Problem Eliminator
    The Richest Man In The World
    The Silver Phantom
    The Shadower
    The Shadow War
    The Writing On The Wall
    To Pull The Trigger
    Valley Of Shadows
    Wake Up Or Die
    Win, Lose, Or Die
    You Know My Name
    Zero Minus Ten
  • I would add "Russian Roulette" (the title from the unmade 50s Bond series episode that served as an inspiration to Horowitz's Forever and a Day) to the list.

    Otherwise, my favourites from it, really are "By Royal Command", "Choice Of Weapons", "Once Upon A Spy" and "Some Kind Of Hero". Others are quite good too, but these four are definitely my favourites.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    LucknFate wrote: »
    Here's the list from the Bond 26 Title thread of Fleming/Eon -related potential Bond titles, if we want to discuss how they want to market the first Bond film with a new actor or prospective stories to tell:
    Fleming/Eon Inspiration List:

    007 In New York
    Agent Under Fire
    All The Time In The World
    Blood And Thunder
    Bloodstone
    By Royal Command
    By Royal Decree
    Cards With A Stranger
    Carte Blanche
    Choice Of Weapons
    Colonel Sun
    Death Is So Permanent
    Death Of An Agent
    Death To Spies
    Devil May Care
    Enjoying Death
    Everything Or Nothing
    For Special Services
    For The Sake Of Traitors
    Garden Of Death
    Hell Will Endure
    Icebreaker
    License Renewed
    Mindfield (James Bond Jr.)
    Mr. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang
    Murder On Wheels
    Never Dream Of Dying
    Never Send Flowers
    Nightfire
    No Good About Goodbye
    Nobody Lives Forever
    Once Upon A Spy
    Per Fine Ounce
    Property Of A Lady
    Provocateur
    Red Sky At Night
    Red Underground
    Resurrection
    Risico
    Role Of Honor
    Russian Roulette
    Shatterhand
    Shaken Not Stirred
    Shamelady
    Show Of Force
    Silverfin
    Slay It With Flowers
    Solstice
    Some Kind Of Hero
    Talk Of The Devil
    The Belles Of Hell
    The Dead Are Alive
    The Death Collector
    The Elegant Venus
    The Eye That Never Sleeps
    The Hildebrand Rarity
    The Machinery Of Evil
    The Nature Of Evil
    The Problem Eliminator
    The Richest Man In The World
    The Silver Phantom
    The Shadower
    The Shadow War
    The Writing On The Wall
    To Pull The Trigger
    Valley Of Shadows
    Wake Up Or Die
    Win, Lose, Or Die
    You Know My Name
    Zero Minus Ten

    There's a lot of promising titles in there. I think it depends on the direction they're going for with the next era. Death To Spies and Risico are my personal favourites
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,787
    Murder on Wheels, or Zographos?
  • edited March 2023 Posts: 578
    peter wrote: »
    And the following may also be a wrench in the development works:

    A writer’s strike is mobilizing (I believe the contract deadline is May 1; it hasn’t been looking positive for quite some time and the drums to put pens down has been getting loud).

    https://www.wrapbook.com/blog/wga-strike

    If Nolan is directing, it's possible the script is already finished.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I’m going to go out on a limb and say that Nolan’s entire creative universe has been absorbed with Oppenheimer. The chance of him having written a script while he’s locking his opus, is quite low (respectfully, and IMO).
  • Posts: 6,709
    peter wrote: »
    I’m going to go out on a limb and say that Nolan’s entire creative universe has been absorbed with Oppenheimer. The chance of him having written a script while he’s locking his opus, is quite low (respectfully, and IMO).

    Unless he has been sitting on a Bond screenplay for most of his career ;)
    But I bet you are right, @peter.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    Cheers for the insight Peter

    Not sure how I'd feel about a Nolan Bond film to be honest, he makes impressive films, but his films lack a sexiness that the best Bond films have. His brother is a must if he were to develop his own script in my opinion
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,181
    Nolan typically focuses one film at a time. I think the only instance he worked simultaneously was when he was filming THE PRESTIGE and writing THE DARK KNIGHT at the same time. But I think that was helped by the fact that both Christian Bale and his brother were part of the film so they were able to work between shoots. He wouldn’t do that again during the shooting for INCEPTION, which is why THE DARK KNIGHT RISES took longer to get done.

    IF Nolan is actually attached, that might mean a Summer or Fall 2025 release at earliest.

    I do think it’s wise that Eon didn’t simply jump the gun and have a movie ready to go for 2023. I think having four to six years between Bond actors actually helps build more anticipation and also allows audiences to embrace the new Bond more readily. Notice that prior to that, Lazenby, Moore, and Dalton kinda had growing pains in the part because they all jumped into the part just two years after their predecessors. Moore eventually secured his role by his third film, whereas Brosnan and Craig were immediately embraced by audiences from the get go.
  • Posts: 6,709
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Cheers for the insight Peter

    Not sure how I'd feel about a Nolan Bond film to be honest, he makes impressive films, but his films lack a sexiness that the best Bond films have. His brother is a must if he were to develop his own script in my opinion
    My feelings exactly!
  • Posts: 1,858
    Nolan does not have the DASH required for Bond.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,610
    peter wrote: »
    I’m going to go out on a limb and say that Nolan’s entire creative universe has been absorbed with Oppenheimer. The chance of him having written a script while he’s locking his opus, is quite low (respectfully, and IMO).

    At first, it sounded like Inception was the original script he’d been writing and sitting on for awhile. Maybe Oppenheimer is his next equivalent. As for him and Bond, I don’t know. If anyone should get a chance at writing a story at least it should be Anthony Horowitz. He did better with writing in 3 novels than P & W did in 7 screenplays.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,196
    I’m not pro or con Nolan but when asked he made it clear that he would love to tackle a Bond film but only if he was needed to reinvent it; Barbara has repeatedly used the word reinvent. Nolan also has strongly hinted that he had definite ideas. While he may never do it , I suspect that he has given it a lot of thought and probably has a fairly complete story outline in mind. Now, if it’s what Barbara and EON would like to do is a different story.
  • Bentley007Bentley007 Manitoba, Canada
    Posts: 575
    My guess is EON knows what Nolans idea is at this point and either are making or have made a decision based on that story. Time will tell but would love to see what Nolan and Eon could do together in terms of partical stunts/set pieces as this is something both excell at.
  • Posts: 1,973
    The definition of reinvent is to change something so much that it appears to be new. Lofty goal for a character who first appeared on film 1963 and has been portrayed by six actors. Variation is not reinvention. The best thing that can happen to this series is to get back to a simpler Bond unencumbered by DC era angst.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,196
    CrabKey wrote: »
    The definition of reinvent is to change something so much that it appears to be new. Lofty goal for a character who first appeared on film 1963 and has been portrayed by six actors. Variation is not reinvention. The best thing that can happen to this series is to get back to a simpler Bond unencumbered by DC era angst.

    Semantics…
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,279
    Nolan's producer is his wife, Emma Thomas. I highly doubt Eon is going to give up any producing duties to an outsider.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited March 2023 Posts: 8,181
    I think a successful actor reinventing the role is to do it in a way that you can’t imagine the other actors being in their place. Connery wouldn’t have worked in a movie like TSWLM, just as Moore wouldn’t have worked in LTK, and so on. New Bond actors essentially have to be successful at making you forget the other actors.
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