Music in SPECTRE

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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Murdock wrote: »
    I hated Both New Digs and Shanghai Drive. New Digs sounds like it belongs in The Avengers or Iron man and Shanghai Drive is a bunch of electronic beeps. Hardly inspiring. I'd rather have David Arnold ripping off John Barry. The Coke music is way better than what we got in Skyfall. It's even sad when the Bond spoof films have better music than the current era of Bond films. [-(


    On that last part I'll agree with you. Sadly, it's been the case imho at least since 1989, when Kamen did LTK.
  • MansfieldMansfield Where the hell have you been?
    edited June 2015 Posts: 1,262
    In retrospect, I was slightly overcritical of Newman's Skyfall soundtrack. I stand by my previous opinion posted in this thread how the themes don't carry over well without being represented alongside the film. What I did do was neglect to state the positives in his work. Despite his lack of traditional Bond themes and cues, almost the entire soundtrack has a level of class and sophistication worthy of the franchise. Now having watched Skyfall again several dozen times this year, so many of his themes and cues are ingrained into my memory right beside the pictures, including the action tracks like She's Mine and corresponding cues used in other tracks.

    I agree with the sentiment that his work in Spectre will be better received if he meshes the theme song into his themes. I'll provide some examples of what David Arnold did in Casino Royale as to how Newman can be very successful in the franchise.


    (1:40) This is an arrangement used in the film that is quite brilliantly used to fit both the scene perfectly and sound outstanding just for a listen.


    (5:52) A suite version of You Know My Name used in concert. It would take more than a compelling argument to convince me that doesn't rank among John Barry's best.

    I'm going to give him a little bit of a pass on Skyfall for not having a proper Bond motif because the story has less to do with Bond than any other film in the series. Spectre is shaping up to be more about Bond, so he will need to deliver on this front. He can do that in one of two ways that would really satisfy me (and probably most fans):


    Modernize the classic 007 theme, which was last used in Moonraker. It pretty much seems made for combatting SPECTRE, having been used in From Russia With Love, Thunderball, and Diamonds Are Forever.


    Introduce a theme of his own, much the way David Arnold did with Inside Man. The cue was altered a bit in the hotel elevator theme after Bond was being taken in by MI6. It's regrettable that Arnold never got the opportunity to utilize this theme again, but it certainly proves that a completely new theme can be just as attention grabbing as the classics.
  • dominicgreenedominicgreene The Eternal QOS Defender
    Posts: 1,756
    I'm not sure if he gave his official opinion but when I asked Arnold about his possible Skyfall score, he said he wanted to utilize and take further "Inside Man" more.
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,145
    I'd love it if Arnold did an unofficial rescore of Skyfall to see what he would have done differently in the music department.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2015 Posts: 23,883
    @Mansfield, I agree with your points.

    It would certainly be preferable if the title track is woven into the score. I think every fan wants more of this, and yes, Arnold did it best in CR (out of 5 kicks at the can). He should have done it more often and as well, and I would be more of a proponent of his. It's telling that Blunt Instrument & Night at the Opera are sequenced in that concert clip from above: they are his best work by far imho.

    The way they do the music these days (with the title track coming in very late in the day and not really done in conjunction with the composer) makes it more difficult to incorporate the track elements into all of the score, especially if a lot of the score (which is scene based) has already been written.

    RE: Newman, one thing that should be kept in mind is that he had a limited orchestra for SF based on what I've heard (serious budget constraints on that film after they took a hit on QoS). So we really haven't seen what he's really capable of with the full monty. I hope he delivers in SP because he definitely has the talent. I found his SF score to be very refined and finessed (a welcome return to those two elements, that I personally found missing during the late 90's/early 00's), but a little too subtle. He needs to dial it up for SP. Go big or go home.

    Like you, I long for a modernized version of the 007 theme, but wonder if Barry's estate has some say on when/if that can be used.
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,145
    John Barry had a very limited orchestra in the Connery Bond films and pumped out some of his finest work. Limited Orchestra doesn't excuse mediocre music. It's not the musician's fault that Newman's score was limited and middle of the road.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Murdock wrote: »
    John Barry had a very limited orchestra in the Connery Bond films and pumped out some of his finest work. Limited Orchestra doesn't excuse mediocre music. It's not the musician's fault that Newman's score was limited and middle of the road.

    Many disagree with you re: SF & Newman. I happen to be one of them.
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,145
    bondjames wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    John Barry had a very limited orchestra in the Connery Bond films and pumped out some of his finest work. Limited Orchestra doesn't excuse mediocre music. It's not the musician's fault that Newman's score was limited and middle of the road.

    Many disagree with you re: SF & Newman. I happen to be one of them.

    And your point is?
  • MansfieldMansfield Where the hell have you been?
    edited June 2015 Posts: 1,262
    @bondjames @Murdock

    I have to credit both of your points in regards to the size of the ensemble of early Barry and Newman. It certainly makes a difference in the way the composer can orchestrate the pieces. I don't think I'm saying anything controversial with my opinion that Quantum Of Solace has a much more polished and fleshed out soundtrack than Skyfall. In relationship to Barry's early work, I both agree and disagree with the the quality of his work. Some of Barry's finest musical pieces are relatively barebones, such as his Girl Trouble and 007 theme in From Russia With Love and The Laser Beam in Goldfinger, which is arguably the best use of main theme motif in a track to date. Collectively, though, Newman's soundtrack is stronger than the aforementioned Barry albums. Newman's biggest detriment wasn't that his themes were bad, they clearly deserve a place in the series, but none of them were iconic.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Murdock wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    John Barry had a very limited orchestra in the Connery Bond films and pumped out some of his finest work. Limited Orchestra doesn't excuse mediocre music. It's not the musician's fault that Newman's score was limited and middle of the road.

    Many disagree with you re: SF & Newman. I happen to be one of them.

    And your point is?

    My point is many people like the SF score. Many people found it different and interesting. Refined. I'm one of them. I found it a welcome change to Arnold and I liked the new interpretation for Bond.

    1. Was it perfect? Not at all.
    2. Is there room for improvement? Definitely.
    3. Do I hope to see it amped up with more (but not too much) Bond theme and the title track incorporated this time out? Absolutely.

    However, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. He had to work with diva Adele. The track comes in later and later these days. He had a limited budget and a tight post-production timeline to get everything done. He did a good enough job. It was refreshingly different to me with some interesting ideas woven in to places.

    I will be tougher on him this time around, but for a freshman effort, it was not bad at all imho.
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,145
    @bondjames Different and Interesting doesn't automatically mean good. I listened to Newman's score with a fresh mind and didn't particularly liked what I heard. To me, Newman's score wasn't a Bond score. It was a Thomas Newman score in a Bond movie. A Bond score is supposed to be memorable and exciting. To me, Newman's score wasn't.

    As for Arnold, I didn't like him in the beginning. I found his music too electronica in many places. I still think that way, but As I've sought out to collect all the James Bond film soundtracks, I'm able to listen to all of them and absorb them. Arnold's music has grown on me and I see love and appreciation to Bond and John Barry in them. I find much of Arnold's music has the punch and classic style I want in a Bond score.

    Personally, I found Arnold's scores for Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace to be a bit more restrained than his work during Brosnan's tenure. I can excuse Both of them for different reasons. Casino Royale was Bond's beginnings. He had to earn the theme and did at the end of Casino Royale. For Quantum of Solace the movie was heavily rushed in many areas and it shows. We had some Bond theme but not enough.

    Then we get Skyfall and the score starts out great. All the music in the PTS is great. It's after Bond's arrival to Shanghai onward is where the score starts to weaken. But with QoS we got some nice uses of the Bond theme but not enough.

    You like Newman fine. But I found him to be weak in Skyfall and I really hope he delivers for SPECTRE. I'd prefer Arnold but we'll see come November.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Murdock wrote: »

    You like Newman fine. But I found him to be weak in Skyfall and I really hope he delivers for SPECTRE. I'd prefer Arnold but we'll see come November.

    @Murdock, fair enough, I see why you like Arnold and that's fine. He certainly respects the Bond sound and Barry.

    I just don't understand the negativity (and I'm not suggesting you in particular, but generally) towards Newman. He's only had one kick at the can. Arnold had 5 and he still never got close to Barry on a bad day in my opinion. Let's see what Newman brings for SP before being too hard on him.

    I wasn't hard on Arnold for TND. It was an ok score imho but not Barry worthy. I didn't jump on him for it though because it was his first. It's only after TWINE & DAD that I wanted to see the back of him. I actually preferred CR/QoS because I found he brought more of the orchestral Bond sound that I knew from before....although still not as good as the master (who is?).

    What I personally found Arnold lacked was melody, especially with action scoring. I think Hamlisch, Martin & Barry all brought excellent melodic flourishes to their compositions, and I think Newman does too, but less so. That's what I mean about finesse. Not being musically trained I don't know how to explain it better, but it's an element of refinement....a delicate touch.

    Like you I wait excitedly, but nervously to see what SP brings.
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,145
    I didn't really like Hamlisch's score. I thought the 70's beegee's elements ruined most of it, Ride to Atlantis and The Tanker for me are the best pieces from his score. And not to mention Nobody Does it Better being a fantastic main title theme. I listen to it daily.

    I'm hard on Newman mainly because he was forced by EON to use the Bond theme in his score. To me, that's a bit shameful. I'm willing to give him a second chance for SPECTRE as everything we've seen thus far is screaming for a classical Bond theme laden style score.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,105
    Murdock wrote: »
    I hated Both New Digs and Shanghai Drive. New Digs sounds like it belongs in The Avengers or Iron man and Shanghai Drive is a bunch of electronic beeps. Hardly inspiring. I'd rather have David Arnold ripping off John Barry. The Coke music is way better than what we got in Skyfall. It's even sad when the Bond spoof films have better music than the current era of Bond films. [-(

    I'm in agreement here. I've seen people here go on about how great new sighs and shanghai drive are and I just don't understand the praise it gets. Sure, they're not terrible pieces of music but as a Bond sound, they're nothing.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,241
    Mansfield wrote: »

    (5:52) A suite version of You Know My Name used in concert. It would take more than a compelling argument to convince me that doesn't rank among John Barry's best.

    I literally get shivers down my spine listening to the brass of the OHMSS track and KKBB from thunderball. The Barry tracks, especially the early ones, have a grandose and memorable identity to them which makes them stand out even when isolated from the movie (ie listening to the track in the car). The beach fight in OHMSS has a brutality and DAF has a sort of queer-iness and the elevator fight a sort of weird brutality. It's hard to explain but he designed the tracks to the movie's themes.

    Newman's spine shivering moment is during the Tennyson scene which is great but imo that could belong in any movie
  • aaron819aaron819 Switzerland
    Posts: 1,208
    Does anyone have any thoughts on what kind of music we could hear in the Rome chase. We haven't discussed that, we have based ourselves on the Austria scenes. I'd love to hear someones thoughts on what we could hear of music from Newman in the Rome chase.
  • aaron819aaron819 Switzerland
    Posts: 1,208
    Anyone?

    I'll start off.
    I'd love to hear orchestra music during the Austria action scenes, but during the Rome car chase scenes I'd love to hear something more electronic, that Newman knows how to master that kind of music. Of course I wouldn't like the whole music for the chase to be like the music in Shanghai, all electronic. I'd like electronic music but some jump ins of orchestral music and the James Bond theme (of course).

    This is just my opinion. I'd love to hear other thoughts on the Rome car chase music or any other music in the film. :)
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    aaron819 wrote: »
    Anyone?

    I'll start off.
    I'd love to hear orchestra music during the Austria action scenes, but during the Rome car chase scenes I'd love to hear something more electronic, that Newman knows how to master that kind of music. Of course I wouldn't like the whole music for the chase to be like the music in Shanghai, all electronic. I'd like electronic music but some jump ins of orchestral music and the James Bond theme (of course).

    This is just my opinion. I'd love to hear other thoughts on the Rome car chase music or any other music in the film. :)
    Pretty much this. I hate the "Shangai car chase" music, but I wouldn't mind some electronic stuff à la "Backseat Driver".

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Walecs wrote: »
    aaron819 wrote: »
    Anyone?

    I'll start off.
    I'd love to hear orchestra music during the Austria action scenes, but during the Rome car chase scenes I'd love to hear something more electronic, that Newman knows how to master that kind of music. Of course I wouldn't like the whole music for the chase to be like the music in Shanghai, all electronic. I'd like electronic music but some jump ins of orchestral music and the James Bond theme (of course).

    This is just my opinion. I'd love to hear other thoughts on the Rome car chase music or any other music in the film. :)
    Pretty much this. I hate the "Shangai car chase" music, but I wouldn't mind some electronic stuff à la "Backseat Driver".

    Please god no!

    If we have to go electronica, I'd prefer Shanghai Drive to that scratchy, nightclub mess we got in TND.
  • aaron819aaron819 Switzerland
    Posts: 1,208
    bondjames wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    aaron819 wrote: »
    Anyone?

    I'll start off.
    I'd love to hear orchestra music during the Austria action scenes, but during the Rome car chase scenes I'd love to hear something more electronic, that Newman knows how to master that kind of music. Of course I wouldn't like the whole music for the chase to be like the music in Shanghai, all electronic. I'd like electronic music but some jump ins of orchestral music and the James Bond theme (of course).

    This is just my opinion. I'd love to hear other thoughts on the Rome car chase music or any other music in the film. :)
    Pretty much this. I hate the "Shangai car chase" music, but I wouldn't mind some electronic stuff à la "Backseat Driver".

    Please god no!

    If we have to go electronica, I'd prefer Shanghai Drive to that scratchy, nightclub mess we got in TND.

    I agree with @bondjames that piece of music from TND was horrible.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    aaron819 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    aaron819 wrote: »
    Anyone?

    I'll start off.
    I'd love to hear orchestra music during the Austria action scenes, but during the Rome car chase scenes I'd love to hear something more electronic, that Newman knows how to master that kind of music. Of course I wouldn't like the whole music for the chase to be like the music in Shanghai, all electronic. I'd like electronic music but some jump ins of orchestral music and the James Bond theme (of course).

    This is just my opinion. I'd love to hear other thoughts on the Rome car chase music or any other music in the film. :)
    Pretty much this. I hate the "Shangai car chase" music, but I wouldn't mind some electronic stuff à la "Backseat Driver".

    Please god no!

    If we have to go electronica, I'd prefer Shanghai Drive to that scratchy, nightclub mess we got in TND.

    I agree with @bondjames that piece of music from TND was horrible.


    That's my opinion about Shangai Drive.
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,145
    I'd love it the Rome car chase had a theme akin to this. It's got Bond theme and little to no electronica.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,580
    Murdock wrote: »
    I'd love it the Rome car chase had a theme akin to this. It's got Bond theme and little to no electronica.
    Yes something like this would be ideal. I've always admired Everything or Nothing for its sound. I believe it was composed by Sean Callery, the same man who composed the GE tank chase?
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    jake24 wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    I'd love it the Rome car chase had a theme akin to this. It's got Bond theme and little to no electronica.
    Yes something like this would be ideal. I've always admired Everything or Nothing for its sound. I believe it was composed by Sean Callery, the same man who composed the GE tank chase?

    Wasn't the tank chase composed by John Altman?
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    edited June 2015 Posts: 10,580
    Walecs wrote: »
    jake24 wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    I'd love it the Rome car chase had a theme akin to this. It's got Bond theme and little to no electronica.
    Yes something like this would be ideal. I've always admired Everything or Nothing for its sound. I believe it was composed by Sean Callery, the same man who composed the GE tank chase?

    Wasn't the tank chase composed by John Altman?
    Yes, now that I've done my research. I Don't know where I heard otherwise.
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,145
    There is a Tank level in Everything or Nothing that evokes John Altman's music during the Tank Chase in GoldenEye.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Sean Callery is very good. He's done some great stuff for Homeland and 24.
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,145
    I'd love another Bond score by Callery. His music for Everything or Nothing is just pure ear candy.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    His Homeland work (opening and end credits in particular) are just incredible. That Everything or Nothing clip you posted is very good too (I had not heard that before) but when you said it was by him, I knew it would be good.
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,145
    I'll have to check it out. Yeah Everything or Nothing is a very good game with great Bond music. I consider it to be Brosnan's 5th Bond film really. It's over the top like Die Another Day in some respects but it fits better because it's a game. Here's probably my favorite track in the game.

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