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007: What would you have done differently?

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  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    edited June 2018 Posts: 3,262
    TND was the most formulaic but also the most consistently successful at what it was trying to do Bond film made during the 1989-2005 period.

    A couple of easy, superficial changes I would make:

    Eliminate Jack Wade's character. He was OK in GE(even though I would've preferred the return of Felix Leiter in that film instead) but unnecessary here.

    Instead of making up a new ex-girlfriend character for Bond that we had never seen before, I think that Mrs. Carver should've been Tiffany Case Carver instead. I could easily picture Tiffany marrying the extremely wealthy Carver as part of a plan to get the diamonds out of Blofeld's satellite. Carver could also have blackmailed Tiffany about her criminal past into marrying him. Plus, Teri Hatcher reminds me somewhat of Jill St. John and her repartee with Bond at the party reminds me of similar repartee of the scene where "Peter Franks" met blond/brunette/redhead Tiffany at her Amsterdam apartment in DAF.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    I like the idea of someone like Natalya or maybe either Lupe or Pam marrying Carver.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Originally, it was Sylvia Trench who was to be brought back. But, I'm guessing for legal reasons, the character was shelved.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    why legal reasons?
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Maybe the character is copyrighted to someone else, etc? Too much red tape or whatever. I’m only assuming.
  • MadeleineSwannMadeleineSwann
    Posts: 591
    Sorry for the delay guys, but here we go... THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH.

    4fbbe261f8dac635a560304ee2c1e76c.jpg

    This is your chance to say whatever you would have differently wit the film, so things like; plot change, character additions or subtractions. Anything you like. People will be given the chance to give their responses within 7 DAYS from today (this may change so let me know if you want me to extend the time for longer) until the discussion moves on to the next James Bond film. This will run until we reach SKYFALL as a discussion for SPECTRE already exists.

    Hope you guys enjoy hearing everyone's responses!
  • RevelatorRevelator
    Posts: 2,914
    Replace Denise Richards with a blow-up doll.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2018 Posts: 23,883
    Not to be facetious, but in this case my sincere recommendation would be to not make the film at all.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    .The cinematography could be a little more vibrant. It looks much better on Blu-Ray but the film does look a little too muted.
    .Keep some of the deleted footage. I love the extended dialogue in M's office about hollowed out volcanoes. Also keep the bit showing the DB5 arriving at the funeral and "the things we do for England".
    .Improve some of the dialogue between Bond and Elektra. Little too sappy for me.
    .The showdown between Bond and Renard needed to be much more brutal. Use the fight with Trevelyan as a template.

    Always thought that while it isn't perfect, it's an underrated film. Denise Richards has never bothered me. Too hot.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    edited June 2018 Posts: 14,516
    Cigar Girl escapes, and later we are treated to an extended scene with her, Christmas and Elektra wrestling in Zukovsky's finest caviar. Bond and Valentin 'do their best' to break up the fight.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    Either replace Denise Richards or, if you must keep her, then don't have her portraying a nuclear physicist. One would've thought that lesson was learned with Tanya Roberts. However, I agree with @Birdleson that the film would've been better off without her character. They couldn't commit to a tragic ending. They tried to have it both ways and it didn't work.

    Renard's ability to feel no pain was wasted. Perhaps it's too cliche but I would've liked to have seen him defeat Bond in a physical confrontation early on. Bond then would defeat him at then end after learning his weakness. But the last fight definitely needed to be more violent. The whole finale on the sub is disappointing and should be changed.

    Keep the PTS in Spain as originally planned. It's just too darn long.

    Many of the action scenes fall flat. The ski chase and caviar factory being the worst offenders. Let's fix those.

    That's just off the top of my head. Perhaps I'll post again after thinking about it some more.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,516
    I wouldn't replace Richards, don't have a problem with her - and not just because she's fine. You'd think she's a bit young to be a credible nuclear physicist - but then again, I remember a girl at school who over-achieved in every subject. If anything, I would probably make the action scenes a bit more interesting - most of them revolve around him swinging from something:

    bank escape: hanging from curtain blinds cord
    Thames chase: hanging from hot air balloon mooring rope
    bunker escape: swinging from piton wire
    bunker escape: swinging from chains
    caviar factory: using an overhead line as a flying fox

    Eh, too much of the same. Still thoroughly enjoy the film though.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,516
    Yeah, it's pretty repetitive. I'm just waiting now for someone to edit all those swinging scenes together with a Tarzan yell...
  • IGUANNAIGUANNA
    Posts: 1,296
    - Weave the theme song int o the score some more please (it's a great theme)
    - Have Bond dispatch an assassin at King's funeral with the bagpipe flamethrower
    - Have Bond be in a wheelchair for the rest of the film after falling from the hot air balloon
  • bondsumbondsum
    Posts: 3,333
    I agree with the majority of what @Birdleson said. Especially about the Renard character. This had the potential to be a really great Bond movie. It was almost there. But in the end, it fell well short. Also, I agree with @QBranch's observations about Bond swinging too much as an escape ploy.

    Only thing I really disliked was the title song by Garbage. I expected much more from them than this drab, turgid ditty. Then again, TWINE is quite a mouthful to squeeze into the lyrics.
  • IGUANNAIGUANNA
    Posts: 1,296
    That's surpriding @bondsum , in my opinion they might be Don Black's best Bond lyrics.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    edited June 2018 Posts: 14,516
    I was a huge fan of Garbage at the time, but strangely never cared for the TWINE theme. But then, I was more into their uptempo, rockier numbers than the slower ballads. Guess I wasn't as big a fan as I thought, not loving all their songs. I have really grown to appreciate TWINE though, and feel EON really chose well that time around- as opposed to this soft, weak, generic pop junk we're getting now. It still surprises me they chose Garbage back then- it might be akin to choosing a band like Savages or similar now. Imagine that. :O
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    It must have been Arnold who picked Garbage. Good on him.
  • IGUANNAIGUANNA
    Posts: 1,296
    If you want to make your morning super extra and dramatic, just listen to the TWINE theme before work. :)
  • bondsumbondsum
    edited June 2018 Posts: 3,333
    I agree, @QBranch. I too, liked Garbage's musical output at the time, which was why I expected something much more uptempo and better from them. I remember waiting with bated breath listening to Radio 1's world exclusive only to be underwhelmed by what I eventually heard. I suppose I don't have a problem with Don Black's lyrics per se, it's just the way they seem to dictate those awful sudden key changes when Manson has to perform singing the title phrase. I just never liked the up-and-down the scale pitch changes. I'm not musical minded myself, but I can't think of another way of expressing it? Much like Bill Conti's alternative versions of FYEO, I think Arnold needed to go back into the studio and rework the song to make it sound less funereal and depressing.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,516
    I think my only real criticism of the song now is that the first half of the bridge sounds too similar to the first half of the verse. Maybe they could've added a little instrumental before the bridge lyrics to differentiate them.
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    Posts: 12,451
    I’ve long considered TWINE to be one of, if not the most frustrating Bond film as far as wasted potential goes. It has some solid elements - Elektra’s character/actress (the biggest highlight), Brosnan (this is his weakest Bond performance, but he is still a wonderful Bond), soundtrack, title song, epic PTS, Valentin’s return, and Q getting a worthy send-off scene. This is all stuff I enjoy and find to be the highlights of TWINE.

    Then, you have the stuff that drags it down. Christmas Jones, weak finale (post-Bond killing Elektra), some of the series’ least interesting action scenes (some are just executed poorly IMO), bad bits of melodrama, and a Renard character that could have been much more interesting or maybe should have been dropped for a different Bond film.

    Had one fixed these issues, I probably would love TWINE instead of simply like it. As it stands, I must place it near the bottom section of my ranking, though it definitely has its redeeming qualities and is far from a total loss. It is sadly the weakest third Bond entry for any of the Bond actors, but it had to happen to someone. Brosnan was a great Bond, and while I think his shakiest performance came in TWINE, he was still great to watch and was the best part in all his Bond outings.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,516
    I do love the film, but rank it in the bottom third.
  • vzokvzok
    Posts: 4,044
    For me there is a real disconnect between the drama and the action scenes. You can see a division of duties between Apted and Armstrong. Perhaps if they had worked together a bit more it would feel less like a patchwork quilt of scenes stitched together.
  • Mathis1Mathis1
    Posts: 7,397
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    It must have been Arnold who picked Garbage. Good on him.

    It was Arnold who made the call anyway as he's on record as saying lead singer Shirley Manson screamed with excitement at being asked!
    I too was a fan of Garbage at the time and thought them an excellent choice...but I was disappointed with final song. I think if they were left to do the theme themselves..without Arnold, they may have come up with something more in line with their rock style! A chance lost!
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Arnold also made some other interesting picks, like Cornell and White. I think only Madonna was an "obvious and mainstream" choice. His Shaken and Stirred project showed he had some good taste.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    edited June 2018 Posts: 3,262
    Birdleson wrote: »
    1. Eliminate (not replace) Denise Richards role. Completely unnecessary character and a drag on the film, even if it was portrayed by a competent actress. Less than a decade later, CR reminded us that Bond needn't end up with the Bond Girl in the denouement. Leave the marvelous Sophie Marceau as the excellent Elektra King as the sole mature Bond Girl of the picture; betrayal, villainy, death and all. Give us a tragic ending for the first time since OHMSS. And the script should do a better job of not showing it's hand so obviously and so early with the big reveal.

    Exactly. I wouldn't mind them giving Denise a brief Plenty O'Toole/Paris Carver type secondary Bond girl role but that should've been it and in such a scenario her character would've exited the film long before the final credits rolled.

    In a way, the Christmas Jones presence in the film helps to highlight what undermined it. TWINE was supposed to be the OHMSS for the Brosnan era with not only the title reference and indirect reference to Tracy. Its premise was Bond thinks he's found Tracy but in fact has found Blofeld instead. Of course, this would've required a tragic ending but EON and/or MGM was not ready to take that risk in 1999. It would've resulted in a film darker than even LTK and they didn't want to go there. Instead we got a schizophrenic mixture of OHMSS and AVTAK, not exactly a compatible combination to say the least.

    In retrospect, TWINE does seem to be a bit of a dry run for CR and how NOT to film it. I'm just glad that didn't happen until after the Brosnan era was finished.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Good stuff @PrinceKamalKhan .

    Why thank you, @Birdleson
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    In the run-up to TWINE I read that Q ws retiring, and Bond needed psychological help to deal with that. In the end they didn t go there. Maybe it was just some journalist misunderstanding, as is most often the case, but the premise had me intrigued.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited July 2018 Posts: 6,264
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Though I rank it very low these days, I don't think that it would take a lot of changes to make this a stellar Bond film, just one or two major ones. It was the film that convinced me that this (Bronsan's) was the same guy that I grew up with.

    1. Eliminate (not replace) Denise Richards role. Completely unnecessary character and a drag on the film, even if it was portrayed by a competent actress. Less than a decade later, CR reminded us that Bond needn't end up with the Bond Girl in the denouement. Leave the marvelous Sophie Marceau as the excellent Elektra King as the sole mature Bond Girl of the picture; betrayal, villainy, death and all. Give us a tragic ending for the first time since OHMSS. And the script should do a better job of not showing it's hand so obviously and so early with the big reveal.

    2. Renard is a string character in concert, pre-introduction and in his introduction. And, of course, Robert Carlyle is a fine actor. Unfortunately, as with most Bornean Era villains, his core conceit (that he feels no pain, and hence has far greater endurance and tolerance than the average man) is more or less forgotten for the last third of the film. We have an outstanding reminder when he punches through the onyx and shreds his hand out of frustration at his own defect. Then, it's dropped. After Elektra dies is when he should go into overdrive and give Bond the physical battle of his life; blood, broken bones...carnage. And not on the damned sub, and not over those plutonium rods.

    3. Speaking of the lame ending aboard the sub; this was two out of four straight films where Bond must save the Bond Girl from drowning (failing brilliantly in the last one, CR). Fortunately, with the removal of Christmas Jones, this is no longer a concern.

    4. Take out the caviar factory, remote control car, CGI saw blades, helicopters, etc...the entire scene. That belongs in a film like TND. Really kills the film for me. Replace that one scene with an action scene that is more earthy and violent, in a better location, and I'm happy.

    5. As usual per a Brosnan Era film, lose the sophomoric sexual banter, particularly between Bond and Moneypenny. Same goes for the anti-smoking Public Service Announcement.

    What I do like. Most of the cast apart from Richards; I particularly like Pierce in this one. The bleak locations. The homage to Bernard Lee's M. The Title Sequence and Song. The overall look and feel of the film. I like Apted as a director (I liked him long before his association with Bond), and I like him here; most of my problems were with the script.
    And Judi Dench is very good, except it kind of craps on doing the M kidanpping from COLONEL SUN anytime soon.

    I agree with all of these ideas--well done, Birdleson!

    I would have liked the reference to Tracy to be more explicit.

    I wish the other action sequences you didn't mention--the ski scene, the fight out of the bunker (possibly the best action scene here--I liked the callout to MR with all the bald guys)--were more raw and intimate. Possibly with handheld cam.

    And I think the PTS would have played better in Switzerland, as was the original plan ("If you can't trust Swiss bankers, what has the world come to?") and it would have been a nice callback to OHMSS.

    The film peaks, quite nicely, with Zukovsky's death scene, followed by the chase up Maiden's Tower. It should have ended there, too. The submarine sequence is utterly stupid, as is that last scene and line, the nadir of the entire series.
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