007: What would you have done differently?

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  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,331
    Carver's a pretty over the top guy. He started his first war when he was 10. :))
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Murdock wrote: »
    Carver's a pretty over the top guy. He started his first war when he was 10. :))
    =))
  • Posts: 11,189
    Bizzarly Carver’s OTT-ness seems relatively legit given how cartoony a certain serving US president is.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited June 2018 Posts: 5,131
    FoxRox wrote: »
    TND has its upsides. Works perfectly as a no-nonsense, action-filled Bond outing. Minimal emotional baggage, fairly memorable villains and women, and an amazingly cool performance from Brosnan. I don’t love it as much as GE, but it’s stil got to be his second best easily.

    I agree with your comments bar those related to the Villain in TND.

    If a maniacal villain’s plan is to drive up ratings on his networks, you know you’re in trouble....... Jonathan Pryce, who isn’t very interesting as an actor let alone a Bond villain, plays Elliot Carver with very little interesting to say or do in one of Bond’s worst entries. Clearly it was an attempt to give Bond a new post-Cold War villain, and clearly it didn’t work.

    Johnathan Pryce had zero charisma and his overacting didn’t help matters.

    I find him to be a weak villain in every sense of the word, a limp wristed pantomime pufter!
  • Posts: 11,189
    I think Pryce has charisma as an actor.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Strange views on Jonathan Pryce.

    He definitely camps it up and it's not a great film but head and shoulders above Brozza's other entries.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Of all of his films TND probably looks the most cinematic.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,697
    suavejmf wrote: »
    If a maniacal villain’s plan is to drive up ratings on his networks, you know you’re in trouble....... Jonathan Pryce, who isn’t very interesting as an actor let alone a Bond villain, plays Elliot Carver with very little interesting to say or do in one of Bond’s worst entries. Clearly it was an attempt to give Bond a new post-Cold War villain, and clearly it didn’t work.

    Johnathan Pryce had zero charisma and his overacting didn’t help matters.

    I find him to be a weak villain in every sense of the word, a limp wristed pantomime pufter!
    While I would agree that Pryce plays Carver as a media-mogul caricature in many ways, I find the plot of TND, as regards the villain's motive, probably the most realistic of the series. And it's not "just" higher ratings, but also the prospect of obtaining exclusive broadcasting rights in China after helping with the intended coup, which includes triggering a war between the UK (but where is NATO?) and China.

    In other words, freely interpreted and updated to the late 20th century, Carver is doing almost the same thing that William Randolph Hearst did after the sinking of USS Maine, except that Carver also had to provide for the Devonshire's demise himself instead of just exploiting an accidental explosion to start a war between the U.S. and Spain then, and the UK and China now. I wouldn't rule out someone like Murdoch doing exactly the same if the opportunity arose. Faux News spells trouble in that regard.

    I kind of like a more realistic approach to villain's motives even if they ultimately go over the top. LTK is another example. And yes, QOS. But I don't need yet another maniac wishing to annihilate the world for genetic experiments or personal vendetta, and I also wish to see no more satellite weapon schemes, diamond-studded or not.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,533
    I guess we're on TND now. I wouldn't change much. It's Brosnan's TSWLM.

    .Keep the deleted scenes showing Bond, M, and Robinson in the car drinking cocktails and going over Carver's background, the jaguar gag with Q, Gupta's card tricks, and the extra dialogue during Carver's story at the party.
    .Get rid of the godawful sound effects during the fight scene.
    .Make the motorcycle chase and finale a little shorter.
  • edited June 2018 Posts: 15,818
    For TND, I do prefer the TOMORROW NEVER LIES title. Is there any real concrete info on that title change, other than it being typo?

    I never cared for Arnold skipping to the end of the Bond theme for the gun-barrel. In fact I hated it the first time I saw the film.
    I'd have put KD Lang's Surrender song during the titles, and just let Sheryl Crow's effort later become one of the many rejected Bond themes posted on Youtube we can be grateful never made it to the screen.

    Cast someone other than Teri Hatcher. As much as I love Monica Bellucci, I don't think she missed out on much here. Paris is a crummy role, IMO and a feeble attempt to bring a personal element to the series. I never cared for her backstory being a former girlfriend of Bond. That type of scenario might have worked for Stacy Keach's Mike Hammer, but here I just don't buy it or even care.
    As popular as Wai Lin is, I never felt any romantic chemistry between her and Bond. My favorite Bond girl in TND is the Danish Professor.

    Is TND the only Bond film with absolutely no connection to any Fleming material?

    Perhaps at some point the writers could have picked up one or two of Fleming's novels and found at least something to use.

    Quibbling aside, I do feel TND holds up better than the other Brosnan films in some ways. The score alone makes it more enjoyable for me as a go-to Brosnan than even GOLDENEYE
    .
    I feel the pacing is spot on, and Pierce looks great here.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    The ex-girlfriend part apparently had Sylvia Trench in mind, but for some reason they changed it to Paris Carver, which I also have never cared for. Then again, Teri Hatcher has this particular image of her in my mind that makes me despise her, which is why the death of her character doesn't move me at all.
  • Posts: 15,818
    The ex-girlfriend part apparently had Sylvia Trench in mind, but for some reason they changed it to Paris Carver, which I also have never cared for. Then again, Teri Hatcher has this particular image of her in my mind that makes me despise her, which is why the death of her character doesn't move me at all.

    Good point. She's not particularly likable in TND. I'm not sure if the slap to Bond was intended to make her look "cool", but that scene doesn't work, IMO. Pierce is great though.
    What's interesting for me is that someone like, say Plenty O Toole has far more personality. Even her death has more impact to me than Paris. Maibaum and Mankiewicz weren't trying to create a deep character with Plenty. She's just meant to be funny. Yet through the witty dialogue and rapport with Sean she became more iconic than Paris would ever be.
    Also this began the '90's trend of casting current popular stars as Bond girls. Paris, Christmas Jones and Jinx all rank near the bottom for me.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited June 2018 Posts: 5,979
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Is TND the only Bond film with absolutely no connection to any Fleming material?

    Perhaps at some point the writers could have picked up one or two of Fleming's novels and found at least something to use.

    "So tell me, James, do you still sleep with a gun under your pillow?"

    I remember in 1997 bemoaning that this was the only Fleming element I could possibly find in the film.

    Your point is a good one.
  • Posts: 11,425
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    For TND, I do prefer the TOMORROW NEVER LIES title. Is there any real concrete info on that title change, other than it being typo?

    I never cared for Arnold skipping to the end of the Bond theme for the gun-barrel. In fact I hated it the first time I saw the film.
    I'd have put KD Lang's Surrender song during the titles, and just let Sheryl Crow's effort later become one of the many rejected Bond themes posted on Youtube we can be grateful never made it to the screen.

    Cast someone other than Teri Hatcher. As much as I love Monica Bellucci, I don't think she missed out on much here. Paris is a crummy role, IMO and a feeble attempt to bring a personal element to the series. I never cared for her backstory being a former girlfriend of Bond. That type of scenario might have worked for Stacy Keach's Mike Hammer, but here I just don't buy it or even care.
    As popular as Wai Lin is, I never felt any romantic chemistry between her and Bond. My favorite Bond girl in TND is the Danish Professor.

    Is TND the only Bond film with absolutely no connection to any Fleming material?

    Perhaps at some point the writers could have picked up one or two of Fleming's novels and found at least something to use.

    Quibbling aside, I do feel TND holds up better than the other Brosnan films in some ways. The score alone makes it more enjoyable for me as a go-to Brosnan than even GOLDENEYE
    .
    I feel the pacing is spot on, and Pierce looks great here.

    The score is better. Pierce looks the part and and lost a bit of the naff vibe he has in GE.

    Totally agree re kd Lang. much better than crows warblings. the kd lang song is by Arnold (and Don Black) if I remember correctly.

    I read the other day that St Etienne did a song for TND. EON apparently rejected it. But Pierce liked it so much he kept the tapes and told the band he much preferred it to Crow's song

  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    edited June 2018 Posts: 15,423
    I too am not fond of Crow's song. It just doesn't fit the film's tone for me. It's singing and whining about a tragic love story that wasn't even a large element in the film, it's out of place. Much like Sam Smith's dreadful song for SP.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,331
    I hate Crow's song too. It's down there with Writings on the Wall.
  • Posts: 1,883
    If I'd change anything it would be the excessive shootout aspect of the finale. There's always some gunplay in Bond films, but TND was more like the Joel Silver school of action films.

    I remember when TND was in production and hearing the threat and thinking not another stop WWIII scenario, but it surprisingly works. TND works overall and the best Brosnan movie for me because it seems the most straightforwardly enjoyable, like it could've come from the Moore era. It has good action, score, Bond doing some actual spying, a decent girl, villain and locations. It really moves and has pace.

    Somebody mentioned TND's successors taking risks but were failures made them better. In the long run, is it better to do a successful repeat or risk and fail? I guess the answer for me is I'd rather watch something that has replay value than something that doesn't work and only makes me roll my eyes. Sometimes turning your mind off and just enjoying is more stimulating than appreciating some type of stab at art, particularly in this genre.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,697
    Murdock wrote: »
    I hate Crow's song too. It's down there with Writings on the Wall.
    Crow's song is perfectly ok and better than most Bond songs. It's just that it pales totally in comparison with k.d. lang's "Surrender" (as it came to be known after being sacked as the primary theme), which would have been a contender to be the No. 1 Bond Movie Theme of all times. Still, to compare the Crow song to the recent (and earlier) failures is ludicrous.
  • Posts: 11,189
    I do struggle a bit with TND when watching it now. Yes it's glossier and has a bigger budget than GE but it's also very formulaic and cheesy with too many filler action set-pieces.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Bizarrely I'd never heard this before and only heard about it recently. I assume others on here know it already. St Etienne's TND song. not great either. the kd lang song wins hands down.

    https://g.co/kgs/CmqHXL

  • Posts: 14,834
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Carver is often quite cartooney and theatrical (his “hold the presses” opening speech) but yes there are some moments where we see a character with a bit more potential.

    I find Carver entertaining if a bit lightweight. He's one of the many amateur villains of the series which I'm never too keen on.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,533
    I prefer Lang's song, but I've grown to accept Crow's song. It's not bad.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Remington wrote: »
    I prefer Lang's song, but I've grown to accept Crow's song. It's not bad.

    I don't think its all that bad either. I prefer it to AWTD and TWONW.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2018 Posts: 23,883
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Remington wrote: »
    I prefer Lang's song, but I've grown to accept Crow's song. It's not bad.

    I don't think its all that bad either. I prefer it to AWTD and TWONW.
    Without a shadow of a doubt.

    I'm going to wait for the OP to change the thread title before commenting further on TND, but thought I'd chime in with some support for the oft-lambasted title track.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,697
    But it could have been so much better...
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Not with that title sequence however. That's obviously designed for Crow's song.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,697
    Maybe so, but what's obvious about it? I couldn't tell and all I know is that what was later called Surrender was originally called Tomorrow Never Dies until someone thought that k.d. lang wasn't popular enough to draw additional audience.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    edited June 2018 Posts: 15,423
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    Maybe so, but what's obvious about it? I couldn't tell and all I know is that what was later called Surrender was originally called Tomorrow Never Dies until someone thought that k.d. lang wasn't popular enough to draw additional audience.
    The dramatics, the performances and the incidents in the sequence, especially with the girl jumping over to what would appear to her own escape from the tragedy she was given in the end of the sequence fits with the tone with Crow's song. And all the X-Rays that show the interiors of the weapons and the microchip structure inside the girls are all what Bond would view as nothing more but missions all the theatrics that draw to the song that was originally plastered over them plays to the very beats of the title song given to the final film. They don't have anything in common with "Surrender".
  • mattjoesmattjoes Kicking: Impossible
    Posts: 6,733
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    Maybe so, but what's obvious about it? I couldn't tell and all I know is that what was later called Surrender was originally called Tomorrow Never Dies until someone thought that k.d. lang wasn't popular enough to draw additional audience.
    The dramatics, the performances and the incidents in the sequence, especially with the girl jumping over to what would appear to her own escape from the tragedy she was given in the end of the sequence fits with the tone with Crow's song. And all the X-Rays that show the interiors of the weapons and the microchip structure inside the girls are all what Bond would view as nothing more but missions all the theatrics that draw to the song that was originally plastered over them plays to the very beats of the title song given to the final film. They don't have anything in common with "Surrender".
    Agreed. Also, the pace of the sequence is tailored for the Sheryl Crow song. Surrender is more up-tempo.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    mattjoes wrote: »
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    Maybe so, but what's obvious about it? I couldn't tell and all I know is that what was later called Surrender was originally called Tomorrow Never Dies until someone thought that k.d. lang wasn't popular enough to draw additional audience.
    The dramatics, the performances and the incidents in the sequence, especially with the girl jumping over to what would appear to her own escape from the tragedy she was given in the end of the sequence fits with the tone with Crow's song. And all the X-Rays that show the interiors of the weapons and the microchip structure inside the girls are all what Bond would view as nothing more but missions all the theatrics that draw to the song that was originally plastered over them plays to the very beats of the title song given to the final film. They don't have anything in common with "Surrender".
    Agreed. Also, the pace of the sequence is tailored for the Sheryl Crow song. Surrender is more up-tempo.
    Agreed. I imagine the sequence for Surrender would be something akin to Thunderball's.
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