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  • QsAssistantQsAssistant All those moments lost in time... like tears in rain
    Posts: 1,812
    SaintMark wrote: »
    So basically the US suffers more gunshot casualties in their own country than in any recent wars they have been involved abroad.

    Mourning the recent casualties is just that mourning the inevitable next mourning of a mass shooting.

    Once again it shows that the divide between the US and the rest of the west is a huge Chasm mainly divided with guns and religion.

    I am truly sorry about the dead and the casualties, find it horrible. But every time I hear about a new one I am glad we have a huge ocean between our continents. It is becoming a recurrent episode. And there never seems to be a time of discussing the Gun problem of the US, if happenings as this are not a moment to steer into a different direction then nothing will change that at all.

    Next up in congress a deregulation for gun silencers, because mass shootings will be come a less noisy affair.

    The madness in the US is really flabbergasting too bad so many people suffer from it albeit from guns, healthcare or religion.

    It really is sad at how many of my fellow Americans think that America is the greatest country on Earth. We're not. Too many of us are greedy and don't want to change because we think we're already perfect. Don't get me wrong, I love my country and there are a great deal of good people here but we really need to focus on bettering ourselves and realize we're not "great."
  • Posts: 7,653
    Nothing wrong with loving your country.
  • Posts: 19,339
    SaintMark wrote: »
    So basically the US suffers more gunshot casualties in their own country than in any recent wars they have been involved abroad.

    Mourning the recent casualties is just that mourning the inevitable next mourning of a mass shooting.

    Once again it shows that the divide between the US and the rest of the west is a huge Chasm mainly divided with guns and religion.

    I am truly sorry about the dead and the casualties, find it horrible. But every time I hear about a new one I am glad we have a huge ocean between our continents. It is becoming a recurrent episode. And there never seems to be a time of discussing the Gun problem of the US, if happenings as this are not a moment to steer into a different direction then nothing will change that at all.

    Next up in congress a deregulation for gun silencers, because mass shootings will be come a less noisy affair.

    The madness in the US is really flabbergasting too bad so many people suffer from it albeit from guns, healthcare or religion.

    It really is sad at how many of my fellow Americans think that America is the greatest country on Earth. We're not. Too many of us are greedy and don't want to change because we think we're already perfect. Don't get me wrong, I love my country and there are a great deal of good people here but we really need to focus on bettering ourselves and realize we're not "great."

    A very honest post,respect to you for that.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Nothing wrong with loving your country.
    Better to love humanity imho. The problem is too much silo'd national pride and identity politics. Ultimately I believe we're all part of the same universe and should look out for similarities rather than trying to obtain some pride and ego satisfaction from a distinction or difference.
  • edited October 2017 Posts: 7,653
    Loving your country should not be confused with being blind with its faults. In trying to improve your country and others you can still love your country.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Loving your country should not be confused with be blind with its faults and trying to improve your country and others.
    Indeed. One can love one's country but should not let it fuel one's ego and sense of pride. The two are distinct. Real love for country is a willingness to sacrifice oneself for it, its citizens and its ideals.
  • Posts: 7,653
    Dying for my country, there's better be a bloody good reason otherwise I'd say stuff it. Dying for my country is this meaningless phrase of nationalism that killed more young men and women than was necessary.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    If you truly love your country and what it stands for, you should be willing to die for it. If you don't think the cause is worthy then you'd better try to make some changes for the better to ensure they only fight for worthy causes (like Ali did).

    If one does neither, then what's the point of the love? All one is doing is sending others to die in one's place and that's not love at all.

    I just find these platitudes (useless phrases?) about patriotism, love of country and what not meaningless without civic duty to back it up.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    Yeah, I'll never understand these "criminals break the law anyway, why make laws" nonsense. Laws are designed to deter law-abiding citizens from doing something. They're not meant to deter law-breaking citizens; they're meant to punish them. The idea is to try and better society by providing a positive direction for change.

    So the whole argument about crime persisting is an invalid one in any case, because you can extrapolate that to mean that laws shouldn't be made at all. The only valid argument I can think of would be that these obscene gun violence rates don't exist/gun laws won't change them, and to my knowledge, the facts are arrayed quite neatly against that stance.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Well at least we survived another one chaps,so well done all..same time next month ?
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 7,981
    Outside of being deployed I've never been outside of USA for pleasure. But ask yourself, if we don't need guns, will the criminals that illegally possess them just hand them over as well? I'm sorry but you can't coexist with people that want to kill you.

    Oddly enough I still haven't been killed by anyone, and I'm not allowed to carry any firearm. Do we have croiminals who own illegal guns. Sure we do. But your last sentence says it all: where do you get that idea from? Why do you think there are people out there who 'want to kill you'?

    You were asking if it makes a difference, making guns legal or illegal. SInce the Australians (best comparison to the USA I suppose) banned automatic and semi-automatic guns, they've had none, that is ZERO, mass shoutings. Against a standard once a year.

    How many times did you actually pull a gun on anyone 'to protect yourself'?

    I will tell you this, I've been attacked by a group of boys (around 4 of them, 18y/o's) who were seeking a fight. If I'd pulled a gun, someone would've died. Fact is, everyone got away, some with bruses (at least me) and jailtime (one of the 4).

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691

    I will tell you this, I've been attacked by a group of boys (around 4 of them, 18y/o's) who were seeking a fight. If I'd pulled a gun, someone would've died. Fact is, everyone got away, some with bruses (at least me) and jailtime (one of the 4).
    THANK YOU! I'd rather have bruises that will heal rather than the memory of ending someone's life... someone who might have turned it all around some day.
  • The population of Australia is approximately 24 million, of England 53 million, of Canada 36 million, versus nearly 400 million people in the United States. The area of England is roughly equal to the state of Idaho versus 47 other contiguous states in the United States. Most gun violence occurs in the inner city of metropolitan areas, and the average middleclass citizen will never be confronted with gun violence (except on television, the movies or in their minds). 84 people died in the truck attack in Nice, France, so someone bent on causing destruction of innocent lives doesn’t need a firearm to do so. It is impossible to protect innocent people from every danger in the world and certainly not possible to predict the actions of sick and demented people who want to commit violence. There are 7 billion people in the world and 10 times that many small arms. Manufacturing firearms is as simple as having a metal works shop and a forge. It’s something that is done in many disenfranchised societies around the world regularly. Of the 213 plus countries in the world, over 160 of them manufacture small arms legally. Can someone tell me why Morocco was just granted permission by the UN to manufacture arms, or even needs to manufacture arms, except that it is a good revenue source ( I wonder where those little rock throwers will be used). It is certainly upsetting and emotionally disturbing to see or hear about what happen in Nevada over the weekend, but banning guns isn’t going to end or reduce violence by those that want to create it.
  • CASINOROYALECASINOROYALE Somewhere hot
    edited October 2017 Posts: 1,003
    My co worker owns 50 guns and is only 25. My parents own 5. My friend has about 8. They never killed anyone.

    We have guns for protection in case of situations like this. It might be unusual to people who are not used to guns but honestly the fault is with the hotel and not guns. The guns he had were illegal.

    Why didn't the hotel have better security? I went to an nba game and a graduation in a stadium, had to remove my belt, empty my pockets and bags and pass them through metal detectors and get body searched. Lasted 5 seconds. Then it was the next person.

    Something like that would be so helpful. Can you imagine if his hotel had that type of security??

    Chicago is a gun free zone and 500 deaths this year from guns and 9 dead 39 injured in shootings during Charlottesville but the media didn't say anything. Inner cities in America are full of drugs, gangs and violence but the media won't report it.

    I just can't believe he was allowed to take 20 something assault rifles and put them in a hotel along with a surveillance set up and a 50 pound bomb in his car.. Really....


  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,533


    And
    My co worker owns 50 guns and is only 25. My parents own 5. My friend has about 8. They never killed anyone.

    We have guns for protection in case of situations like this. It might be unusual to people who are not used to guns but honestly the fault is with the hotel and not guns. The guns he had were illegal.

    Why didn't the hotel have better security? I went to an nba game and a graduation in a stadium, had to remove my belt, empty my pockets and bags and pass them through metal detectors and get body searched. Lasted 5 seconds. Then it was the next person.

    Something like that would be so helpful. Can you imagine if his hotel had that type of security??

    Chicago is a gun free zone and 500 deaths this year from guns and 9 dead 39 injured in shootings during Charlottesville but the media didn't say anything. Inner cities in America are full of drugs, gangs and violence but the media won't report it.

    I just can't believe he was allowed to take 20 something assault rifles and put them in a hotel along with a surveillance set up and a 50 pound bomb in his car.. Really....

    Exactly. Several of my family and friends are gun owners. So am I. We do it for sport or protection, not to blow away innocent civilians.
  • Posts: 7,653
    Blaming the hotel that also caters to large congresses so large sets of luggage are common is ridiculous. A poor attempt to give blame to something that is not lethal.

    Guns kill people and that is fact they were not created for any other cause then to kill, main purpose I would say.

    Anybody having 50 guns is crazy there is nothing smart about it. Proof of gun craziness are the 30.000 casualties of guns in the US every year. Okay a large part are suicides but still dead.

    The GUN craziness in the US has nothing to do with common sense or safety. I have never been threatened by anybody to warrant me having a gun, nobody wanted to kill me either. I think having a shedload of guns for protection says more about the paranoia one lives with. The US is in need of serious Mental health treatment in my humble opinion.
    If you need 50 guns to feel safe you are one mental sick puppy.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    We have guns for protection in case of situations like this.
    Remington wrote: »
    We do it for sport or protection, not to blow away innocent civilians.

    Could you furnish us with one (just the one - not too much to ask surely?) example where an upstanding citizen prevented one of these massacres by pulling out his piece and gunning the perpetrator down like Dirty Harry? Because the only ones our anti gun media tell us about over here is when the SWAT team shows up to end it.
  • edited October 2017 Posts: 19,339
    Can I ask why Americans have 25-50 guns in one house ?
    Why not just have one for defence and maybe one for hunting or whatever else it is you do ?

    This is where the system fails...seriously 50 guns ?!

    If I lived next door to someone who had 50 guns,i would call the police,and im not joking..i would think they are a terrorist or a nutter.


  • edited October 2017 Posts: 12,837
    Remington wrote: »

    And
    My co worker owns 50 guns and is only 25. My parents own 5. My friend has about 8. They never killed anyone.

    We have guns for protection in case of situations like this. It might be unusual to people who are not used to guns but honestly the fault is with the hotel and not guns. The guns he had were illegal.

    Why didn't the hotel have better security? I went to an nba game and a graduation in a stadium, had to remove my belt, empty my pockets and bags and pass them through metal detectors and get body searched. Lasted 5 seconds. Then it was the next person.

    Something like that would be so helpful. Can you imagine if his hotel had that type of security??

    Chicago is a gun free zone and 500 deaths this year from guns and 9 dead 39 injured in shootings during Charlottesville but the media didn't say anything. Inner cities in America are full of drugs, gangs and violence but the media won't report it.

    I just can't believe he was allowed to take 20 something assault rifles and put them in a hotel along with a surveillance set up and a 50 pound bomb in his car.. Really....

    Exactly. Several of my family and friends are gun owners. So am I. We do it for sport or protection, not to blow away innocent civilians.

    I spent most of my childhood and teenage years in a fairly rough area of London. Never owned a gun, never felt I needed to. I can understand the sport aspect of it, but you don't need a pistol to carry around or a rifle to keep at home. Why do you need a gun for protection? You do have (armed) police over there.

    Yes guns don't kill people people kill people blah blah blah but being able to easily, legally obtain an assault rifle makes it a hell of a lot easier. And yeah it's all the hotels fault for not strip searching every customer and emptying every one of the hundreds of bags of luggage they had, that's the issue here, not the fact that the guy was able to buy assault rifles. Don't try and shift everyone's attention to the hotel security. There's a reason this happens so reguarly and that this issue comes up every time and it'll carry on doing so until something changes.

    Nobody needs to own 50 guns. End of. I'm sorry but that's just insane and that you genuinely think that's acceptable it just shows how backwards and ridiculous America's (I know it isn't all of you to be fair and I feel sorry for the sane rational Americans who have to put up with this on their doorstep) stance on this is in comparison to pretty much the rest of the civilised world.

    Yes tighter gun control laws wouldn't get rid of shootings entirely. But they'd reduce them dramatically and as @TheWizard said, I've never heard any stories of some heroic patriotic American whipping out his glock and saving the day. I have however heard plenty of some psycho with an assault weapon killing and wounding several people until the police arrive. So I reckon you could live without them even if gun crime wouldn't be 100% gone (what sort of logic is that? There'd still be a small chance of this happening so we should all keep our guns so that there's an even bigger chance of this happening, that'll sort it).

    But this has happened too many times for me to think anything will ever actually change over there. If you want to live in a place where your coworker and anyone else who could go postal any time can legally own 50 devices designed for the purpose of killing people then good luck to you. But don't hold it against the rest of us for pointing out just how batshit insane that actually is.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    I've never heard any stories of some heroic patriotic American whipping out his glock and saving the day.

    Don't know what you mean mate. There's plenty of well documented instances of this happening:

    John McClane, off duty NYPD officer - Nakatomi Plaza LA 1988, Dulles Airport 1990

    Casey Ryback, ship's cook - USS Missouri 1992, Grand Continental train 1995

    John Cutter, self defence instructor - Atlantic International Airlines flight to LA 1992

    James Marshall, POTUS - Air Force One 1997

    Paul Blart, shopping mall security guard - West Orange Pavillion Mall, NJ 2009

  • edited October 2017 Posts: 1,162
    My co worker owns 50 guns and is only 25. My parents own 5. My friend has about 8. They never killed anyone.

    We have guns for protection in case of situations like this. It might be unusual to people who are not used to guns but honestly the fault is with the hotel and not guns. The guns he had were illegal.

    Why didn't the hotel have better security? I went to an nba game and a graduation in a stadium, had to remove my belt, empty my pockets and bags and pass them through metal detectors and get body searched. Lasted 5 seconds. Then it was the next person.

    Something like that would be so helpful. Can you imagine if his hotel had that type of security??

    Chicago is a gun free zone and 500 deaths this year from guns and 9 dead 39 injured in shootings during Charlottesville but the media didn't say anything. Inner cities in America are full of drugs, gangs and violence but the media won't report it.

    I just can't believe he was allowed to take 20 something assault rifles and put them in a hotel along with a surveillance set up and a 50 pound bomb in his car.. Really....


    I am really not an anti-gun guy, believe me, but at least registration, background checks and no legal and easy access to devices that make your rifle full auto really should be something every person with a modicum of common sense should be able to agree on. And of course mandatory gun handling courses since, having been myself to several US gun shops/shows, I can attest that the average American gun owner knows spit about gun handling. It's actually quite terrifying, to be honest.
    Faulting the hotel for not having enough security is really a bad, bad joke. Yesterday on CNN a former FBI agent referred that he had been to Las Vegas two weeks ago for Congress and he spent one and a half hours in the reception hall just until it was his time to get his room. He said if they were doing security checks the like we are used from airports and such there would have been a waiting line 2 times around the block. These kind of things are simply not feasible and besides, this killer really spend much time in planning obviously. He surely would have found another snipers nest for himself.
    BTW, I have yet to hear any credible argument that someone needs something like an AR 15 for self-defense ( let alone hunting). If you are afraid of your environment there still nothing to protect you better than a good 12/70 shotgun loaded with 00 ammo and a large caliber revolver stuffed with hollow points. Let me ensure you, that if someone looks down the barrel of a 45 caliber revolver combined with those four visible rounds with their menacing gaps calms people down big way.
  • edited October 2017 Posts: 5,821
    Three of them having received professional training already. Don't know about the other two (what did the POTUS did before his time in the White House ?). There's a clip somewhere that shows just how a similar encounter would play off. I'll try to find it and post it here. Believe me, acting like Rambo is harder than you think and doesn't end well in most cases.

    EDIT : Found it !



    Oh, and @barryt007 and @thelivingroyale : I agree : 50 guns in one home is a sign of madness, not of responsible gun ownership. Unless we're talking about a gun collector. And even then...
  • The moderators have stated that MI6 attempts to be a family friendly site, so I will not post the links however anyone who doubts that an armed citizen can prevent an incident need only google a story referring to an elderly man who prevented armed men from injuring anyone at an internet café. Perhaps a more appropriate question might be can anyone show an incident where an armed citizen was not able to prevent other innocent people from being hurt by armed criminals. I was fortunate enough to grow up around people who were familiar with guns. I attended school in Switzerland as a child where we often spent weekends shooting with friends. I own a home in a rural area where firearms are normal in most homes (all of my neighbors owns multiple firearms), I appreciate the fear that some have of firearms, generally it is an unreasonable fear since they will unlikely ever be confronted with one. For a short time I worked as a paramedic in an American city. The majority of firearm incidents (including hostage taking) were in the inner city neighborhoods, the few that were not were revenge related or directed toward people in uniform by criminals. On more than one occasion I have intervened in attempted muggings, or been the subject of attempted mugging, once where a gun was used. In every case I was unarmed (well not carrying a gun or knife or baton anyway) and in every case no one innocent was injured or robbed (well perhaps the criminals had injured prides, I neglected to ask how they felt). Criminals and terrorist attack people that they feel can’t or won’t fight back. I personally don’t advocate that anyone should carry guns or even knives, but it is important to understand that the world can be and is violent and dangerous, with or without firearms and always will be. One extra note, if you are someone who likes guns then the more variety you have (pistols, bolt action rifles, AR’s, etc.) the more you have to shoot (whether it’s sport hunting or shooting range targets). Generally people who don’t understand this concept don’t own or like guns.
  • edited October 2017 Posts: 4,602
    "but honestly the fault is with the hotel and not guns."

    One of the funniest and yet most tragic things I have read on this forum. The absolute determination to alter the agenda and blame a third party rather than have a proper discussion and just look around the World at how other countries lead there lives.

    Perhaps with the Dunblane tragedy: the fault was with the school for poor security.?

    It is a little like the thread on religion because you can state the facts over and over again but the truth will no get through. It's very sad.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    At some point soon the technology will exist (if it doesn't already) to ensure these sort of weapons need some sort of activation code. As an example, if one is on a shooting range or in a hunting zone, then they are activated. If the weapon is in a hotel in the middle of a largely populated area, then they are automatically deactivated.

    Control will increasingly be removed from the individual on account of technology. As I said, it's coming with the autonomous vehicle soon enough.
  • edited October 2017 Posts: 4,602
    At some point, countries will have the ability to control guns via legslation, regulation, enforcement and a concensus within the population.

    Its here already all over the World. There is just no need for the USA to sit on its backside and blame hotels, or wait for new technology or shrug their shoulders ("you can kill with a lorry"),

    the solution is all over the World but they dont want to see it.

    20 times more likely (I know these figures will onlyhave impact outside of the USA) but TWENTY times more likely to die from gun violence. I get on a plane at Gatwick, arrive in NY 8 hours later and I am now 20 times more likely to die re gun crime.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Guns are big business. One of the major exports. That's not going to change. Like it or not it's also enshrined in the 2nd amendment. Guns aren't going anywhere for some time. If one wants to practically reduce the risk of this kind of carnage, one has to find a different way rather than blaming the gun. The same goes for attempts to reduce the hold of religion.

    Insulting or denigrating the population who worship or want a gun isn't going to bring about the solution. Just more tension.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,492
    patb wrote: »
    "but honestly the fault is with the hotel and not guns."

    One of the funniest and yet most tragic things I have read on this forum. The absolute determination to alter the agenda and blame a third party rather than have a proper discussion and just look around the World at how other countries lead there lives.

    Perhaps with the Dunblane tragedy: the fault was with the school for poor security.?

    It is a little like the thread on religion because you can state the facts over and over again but the truth will no get through. It's very sad.

    Spot on. Or the motto here in the US is that it's somehow always "too early to talk about gun control" after a shooting, just for a few weeks to pass by, the shooting falls away into history, no gun control laws are discussed or formulated, and we are back to sharing our "thoughts and prayers" with the next shooting in a few weeks time.

    As you said, some of them will go to the most extreme lengths to try and pin blame on everyone and everything BUT the guns, just so they can keep them. I don't understand it.
  • Posts: 4,602
    "Like it or not it's also enshrined in the 2nd amendment."

    Unlike the 10 commandments , the 2nd ammendment was created by humans. (yes I know the 10 commandments were also but you get my point) It's just words on paper and can be changed if the political and social will is there. To say it is "enshrined" is a cop out.

    I take your point re insulting but , sometimes it seems that people from outside the USA are more angry about the needless slaughter than you guys. You seem so passive about it. As if it's out of your hands and you have no control over your own destiny.

    The population of Catalonia seem to have more passion and motivation re the political status compared to the USA and guns.


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