The case for and against... Martin Campbell

1235713

Comments

  • edited May 2017 Posts: 11,425
    Jazz007 wrote: »
    Campbell made one amazing Bond film for the ages and one pretty good one too - CR and GE, respectively.

    CR is really just note-for-note as close to perfect as a film can get - everything the the photography to the performances to the pacing to the sense of danger/suspense is executed incredibly well. It's incredibly re-watchable.

    GE is good too. Campbell got a fantastic round of performances from the well-assembled cast and created a lot of great individual scenes.

    I hate the opening to GE however - Bond's introduction is mind-numbing awful. No one could have known that introducing Bond hovering over a bowl of sh!t would turn out to be a pretty good metaphor for the rest of Brosnan's tenure as 007 - but it's certainly not classy. Or funny:

    "Beg your pardon, forgot to knock."

    Really? Do you usually knock before barging in on a closed stall? And the guard just sits there for a good handful of seconds, letting Bond spew out the first of many stupid jokes from 1995-2002 without immediately jumping or yelling in a spastic reaction to someone suddenly appearing hanging over you with your pants around your ankles?

    So it starts bad - and then gets more exciting when Sean Bean and Gottfried John enter the picture - and then deforms back into stupidity as Bond defies all ideas of physics as he jumps off the cliff and actually catches the plane that's falling off the cliff in one of the most fake-looking action scenes in the entire 007 series. It's hard to shake off the PTS for me when looking at GE, even with all of its many other good aspects.

    Au contrair, the moment I saw Bond appear head first over that toilet I knew immediately where the series was heading.

    Totally agree it's the worst first appearance by any Bond. Don't know what the hell Campbell was thinking.

    I'm one of that small group who thought GE was abysmal and was not remotely surorised by the direction his era took. DAD was the logical conclusion tbh. But TWINE is actually the worst.

    Campbell did redeem himself impressively with CR though.
  • Posts: 5,767
    Pro:

    Bloody amazing hand to hand combat with unmatched viscerality in both GE and CR.
    All in all pretty watchable films with a certain amount of signature.


    Con:

    Re-introduction of the DB5, some other "things Bond does", like adjusting his necktie while driving a tank. Putting the focus too much on external things.
    Introduction of explosions instead of tension.
    Ignorance of laws of physics, at least in GE.
    Introduction of the internal affair.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,090
    @boldfinger could you explain what you mean by "putting the focus too much on external things". Thank you.
  • edited May 2017 Posts: 5,767
    @Mendes4Lyfe, I think I mean basically the following:

    - "it´s Bond, so he should drive the DB5", i.e. lack of confidence
    - letting Brosnan try (in vain) to emulate Dalton, Moore and Connery, but hardly having him do his own thing (not an issue at all with Craig), again lack of confidence
    - I´m not sure whether I want to blame Campbell for exchanging thrill for action, because I remember by the time of GE and TND I was longing for Bond to catch up with Hong Kong action films. But with GE there started an era that lacked in atmosphere and instead had signposts like the DB5, and the action got more and more bland. Incidentally, even though it made sense that Judy Dench´s M´s office was designed in a minimalistic and practical style, it at the same time also acts as a symbol for the lack of atmosphere in Bond films. I mean not atmosphere in general, but a characteristic Bond film atmosphere.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited May 2017 Posts: 8,090
    boldfinger wrote: »
    @Mendes4Lyfe, I think I mean basically the following:

    - "it´s Bond, so he should drive the DB5", i.e. lack of confidence
    - letting Brosnan try (in vain) to emulate Dalton, Moore and Connery, but hardly having him do his own thing (not an issue at all with Craig), again lack of confidence
    - I´m not sure whether I want to blame Campbell for exchanging thrill for action, because I remember by the time of GE and TND I was longing for Bond to catch up with Hong Kong action films. But with GE there started an era that lacked in atmosphere and instead had signposts like the DB5, and the action got more and more bland. Incidentally, even though it made sense that Judy Dench´s M´s office was designed in a minimalistic and practical style, it at the same time also acts as a symbol for the lack of atmosphere in Bond films. I mean not atmosphere in general, but a characteristic Bond film atmosphere.

    You raise good points, thanks for the clarification. I think there is a fair deal of atmosphere to be derived from this film, especially the Severnaya sequence and the scene at night between Bond and Alec. It certainly lacks what the Dalton films had in the atmosphere department, that's for sure.

    The older I get, the more the "celebration" of Bond in this film becomes apparent. There are sections from the first half of the film that could definitely be trimmed, and serve more as a reintroduction for the audience rather than developing the story or characters.

    That being said, I love this film and always will do. This is the quintessential modern Bond film, like CR is the quintessential post-modern Bond film. Campbell is a genius in my eyes, and a true hero of the franchise. :)
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2017 Posts: 23,883
    I'm not sure if I agree. I thought GE had plenty of atmosphere. It was uncharacteristically modern in places (such as M's new office and anything at MI6), but also had a retro flavour in Moscow/Monaco etc which recalled some of the old classics. I also felt that the Janus HQ echoed some of Adam's larger than life control rooms (but of course far less inventive or extravagant).

    I actually thought that GE had far more Bondian atmosphere than some of Glen's later efforts, particularly LTK & AVTAK, but even OP & TLD. Ever since Adam left the scene with MR the traditional eccentric Bondian feel seemed to be missing and GE brought some of that back, at least for me.

    I agree on the excess of tensionless & poorly realized action & the lack of confidence, but feel that this actually began in earnest with the 'by the numbers' TND and not with GE, which still had that old school thriller feel to it in my view.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,507
    Quite frankly, Campbell has vision for Bond, that's clear. Match him up with a great second unit who will execute his vision via action sequences, I'd have no problem with him returning-- especially if it was to give DC his proper send off (not Mendes's weak attempt).

    EoN needs a steady hand next time out, especially to correct the direction that SP took. Bring back the exotic, the character, the suspense, the terrific fight scenes.

    I think Mr. Campbell understands the character, the arrogance, the cool, the hard-wiring of 007; he'd be as good as anyone, and his effort will easily better Mendes' second attempt.

    Send DC off the proper way-- a great script that Campbell signs off on, his vision, kick ass second unit, and David Arnold.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    peter wrote: »
    I think Mr. Campbell understands the character, the arrogance, the cool, the hard-wiring of 007; he'd be as good as anyone, and his effort will easily better Mendes' second attempt.
    I agree @peter. Campbell is the one director of the last 20+ years who really understands how to convey the Bondian essence on screen. He clearly brought out the best in Brosnan and Craig in their very first attempts, which says something. They were both '100% Bond to their core' in their respective films with him. There was no doubt of that.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,090
    peter wrote: »
    Quite frankly, Campbell has vision for Bond, that's clear. Match him up with a great second unit who will execute his vision via action sequences, I'd have no problem with him returning-- especially if it was to give DC his proper send off (not Mendes's weak attempt).

    EoN needs a steady hand next time out, especially to correct the direction that SP took. Bring back the exotic, the character, the suspense, the terrific fight scenes.

    I think Mr. Campbell understands the character, the arrogance, the cool, the hard-wiring of 007; he'd be as good as anyone, and his effort will easily better Mendes' second attempt.

    Send DC off the proper way-- a great script that Campbell signs off on, his vision, kick ass second unit, and David Arnold.

    "Hard-wiring" is a very good way if putting it @peter. Campbell fundementally gets the core elements of Bond and how they should form the base for any Bond story. It sounds extremely simple on the face of it, but when skilled autuers like Mendes struggle to understand how it should be done, it becomes obvious just how much of a good fit for Bond Campbell is. He understands that a Bond film is like one big balancing act, and very few manage to keep the balance from start to finish, without sagging in the middle or tailing off towards the end. In my heart, there are few things I would like to see more than Campbell direct another Bond film. Even if the result turned out to be a mess, it would still be fascinating to see what he would do a third time. I'm hoping that Barbara still has his number, and he's not out of the running for the next film yet.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited May 2017 Posts: 8,507
    Yes @Mendes4Lyfe and @bondjames, when the same man directs two Bond films, over a decade apart, but still captures the essence of the character, that is indeed a very special person.

    Of course I was worried about Campbell's age at one point, but, so long as he has the vision, then I would gamble he could still deliver a smashing 007 adventure.

    I would love to see a send-off for DC that he warrants: maybe the pre-title sequence starts black-and-white as CR did? Maybe Bond and Madeline live in Belize, or some such place? Perhaps she's alone, walking home... she's followed by a stranger, robbed, and killed?

    We see DCBond find out who the mugger/killer is and avenge her death in a most violent struggle. Perhaps the final shot also turns into the gunbarrel image and the title song, ala CR?

    The credit sequence has images of Bond's disintegrating soul in the aftermath of Madeline's death; horrific images of death that eventually swallow an image of DCBond.

    The song ends and

    DCBond startles awake on a rainy night. Sweating from another nightmare. He peers over at the untouched side of the bed where Madeline used to sleep... From here, he--

    --begins his steps back into the Service. Maybe even (taking a cue from TMWTGG novel) he misguidedly projects blame on Mallory for the death of Madeline. In a state of PTSD, popping pills and drinking, he returns to London to assassinate his ex-superior.

    After failing, he's put into rehabilitation (cue the obligatory, but hopefully interesting scenes with Q and Moneypenny-- and leave them out of the rest of the film).

    While he's recovering--

    SPECTRE breaks their boss, Blofeld, out of prison, and the organization continue on a more avert attack on the free world.

    Once Bond is up and running, M sends his 00-agent back in the field on a suicide mission: to crush SPECTRE once and for all, or die trying....

    (and chime the bell for the haters, but I'm watching CR right now, I'm moved by Cornell's song, and playing with the theory that Campbell comes back to end DC's run; just a fun exercise, nothing more)
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,090
    peter wrote: »
    Yes @Mendes4Lyfe and @bondjames, when the same man directs two Bond films, over a decade apart, but still captures the essence of the character, that is indeed a very special person.

    Of course I was worried about Campbell's age at one point, but, so long as he has the vision, then I would gamble he could still deliver a smashing 007 adventure.

    I would love to see a send-off for DC that he warrants: maybe the pre-title sequence starts black-and-white as CR did? Maybe Bond and Madeline live in Belize, or some such place? Perhaps she's alone, walking home... she's followed by a stranger, robbed, and killed?

    We see DCBond find out who the mugger/killer is and avenge her death in a most violent struggle. Perhaps the final shot also turns into the gunbarrel image and the title song, ala CR?

    The credit sequence has images of Bond's disintegrating soul in the aftermath of Madeline's death; horrific images of death that eventually swallow an image of DCBond.

    The song ends and

    DCBond startles awake on a rainy night. Sweating from another nightmare. He peers over at the untouched side of the bed where Madeline used to sleep... From here, he--

    --begins his steps back into the Service. Maybe even (taking a cue from TMWTGG novel) he misguidedly projects blame on Mallory for the death of Madeline. In a state of PTSD, popping pills and drinking, he returns to London to assassinate his ex-superior.

    After failing, he's put into rehabilitation (cue the obligatory, but hopefully interesting scenes with Q and Moneypenny-- and leave them out of the rest of the film).

    While he's recovering--

    SPECTRE breaks their boss, Blofeld, out of prison, and the organization continue on a more avert attack on the free world.

    Once Bond is up and running, M sends his 00-agent back in the field on a suicide mission: to crush SPECTRE once and for all, or die trying....

    (and chime the bell for the haters, but I'm watching CR right now, I'm moved by Cornell's song, and playing with the theory that Campbell comes back to end DC's run; just a fun exercise, nothing more)

    I like the idea of exploring that aspect of the novels, where Bond gets indoctrinated by the enemy and attempts to take revenge on his superiors. I also think it would be a neat idea if Madeline were to die or leave the story by other means than the enemy killing her off. Her death or absense might cause a rupture in Bonds psyche, and he would deal with it like he did at the start of his career, by applying himself to his work.

    Of course, I would prefer a standalone adventure that went back to basics, but if they have to bring back Madeline and Blofeld, that would be a neat way to do it. Much better than the revenge/going rogue stories that have been a part of Bond now since Dalton. At least M would have Bonds full support on that mission.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,507
    @Mendes4Lyfe ... are we becoming... friends?... (I joke, of course-- yes, I'm not a fan of Turner, although your passion for him is admirable, and I try my best to bite my tongue when you bring him up... However, my friend, you do have clear insights into the Bond character, and I welcome them, and always have)
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,090
    Right back atcha! ;)
  • Posts: 1,680
    Campbell never got to make another film with the same actor, that would be interesting to see,
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Loads of good points across the last page.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited May 2017 Posts: 8,090
    Campbell's first film was really a disconstruction of the Bond Girl character. Natalya was really the main character of GE and her arc felt more compelling and authentic than Bond's did, IMO.

    Campbell's second film was a full deconstruction of the Bond character, with all those tropes examined and the real man underneath finally given life.

    So, I think it would be a fair to assume that, were Campbell to return for a third time, his final film would be a deconstruction of the Bond villain character. IMO the last few villains have been lacklustre and their plans have been somewhat nebulous. And let's face it, Bond and Bond girl have had enough examination for now with Vesper and Madeline being given a proper role to play. I think its time for a "incidental" Bond Girl, ie someone that gets pulled along for the ride and ends up sleeping with Bond rather than falling in love at the end. And its also time for Bond to step back into the shadows and become a character of mystery again, so that only leaves the villain as a focal point. I was thinking maybe an African warlord with a tragic past, who we feel for even though his trauma caused him to go insane and evil. Then the film could be set in Africa, somewhere Bond doesn't visit, and it would also be low-tech like some members here are hankering for. But that's just my random idea, it doesn't have to be that, but I think the villain will play a larger role is what I'm saying.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    @Mendes4Lyfe, I agree with your last post, but I think Mendes already nailed this with SF. Bond and Bond girl (?) were quite incidental to the villain and M in that one, and I think that is why it worked so well. The angst emanated from those two, and not from Bond (despite childhood home at the end).

    I'd like to see more of that going forward. Bond is in every film after all, and we learn about him through the years as we see him react to various situations and scenarios around him. I'm completely against further 'peel back' of the character. It's become quite tiresome to me and that's why I'm looking forward to a soft reboot.
  • edited May 2017 Posts: 11,189
    I think in some ways both SF and SP are guilty of the same things people criticise GE for. Both sets of films can be seen as "tributes" to previous Bond eras.

    @bondjames I also agree with you about this "we will examine Bond's character/world" approach. Those claims seem to sound more and more hollow with each film. Bond was never intended to be a particularly "interesting" character anyway.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2017 Posts: 23,883
    @BAIN123, it's been fashionable to do this for some time, and so it was inevitable that Bond would get in on the act as well. All they're doing with this approach (imho) is demystifying the character, and making it more difficult for him to continue in the future. Fortunately the Craig era appears to be self-contained, so any deconstruction can remain locked away with and specific to his interpretation forever.

    I think it's time to get back to good old fashioned storytelling, where the threat is the main focus, and Bond is called in to take it down.
  • Posts: 5,767
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm not sure if I agree. I thought GE had plenty of atmosphere. It was uncharacteristically modern in places (such as M's new office and anything at MI6), but also had a retro flavour in Moscow/Monaco etc which recalled some of the old classics. I also felt that the Janus HQ echoed some of Adam's larger than life control rooms (but of course far less inventive or extravagant).

    I actually thought that GE had far more Bondian atmosphere than some of Glen's later efforts, particularly LTK & AVTAK, but even OP & TLD. Ever since Adam left the scene with MR the traditional eccentric Bondian feel seemed to be missing and GE brought some of that back, at least for me.

    I agree on the excess of tensionless & poorly realized action & the lack of confidence, but feel that this actually began in earnest with the 'by the numbers' TND and not with GE, which still had that old school thriller feel to it in my view.
    I hold it for Campbell that he gave the films a certain kind of signature, and in that regard GE has plenty of more atmosphere than the next three films. Yet still, in combination with what I call lack of confidence, GE layed the groundwork for what was to come. To be fair, it could have been followed in a very different kind of way. There were for example details in set design (limpet mines for instance) that could have been followed in the following films and that would have IMO given the films much more of an identity as Bond films.

    I agree that GE has an old school thriller feel to it.

    The Monaco bit in GE feels immensely nostalgic to me (perhaps mainly because of the music and Brosnan´s nostalgic look when he enters the casino), which IMO is the biggest mistake any Bond film can do. The things Bond does should be natural to him, not remind him of the past. (Lazenby´s reminiscence in his office is another example of this.)

  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited May 2017 Posts: 8,090
    bondjames wrote: »
    @Mendes4Lyfe, I agree with your last post, but I think Mendes already nailed this with SF. Bond and Bond girl (?) were quite incidental to the villain and M in that one, and I think that is why it worked so well. The angst emanated from those two, and not from Bond (despite childhood home at the end).

    I'd like to see more of that going forward. Bond is in every film after all, and we learn about him through the years as we see him react to various situations and scenarios around him. I'm completely against further 'peel back' of the character. It's become quite tiresome to me and that's why I'm looking forward to a soft reboot.

    You're right, I guess Silva was kinda the focus. But to me, his backstory was never that compelling. The problem for me there is that we are told too much and not shown enough. Silva was apparently a top agent like Bond in his day, and yet we don't see any evidence of that. All we know for sure is that he's a computer genius, and even that is told to us through inference. The only demonstration of skill or menace from him is shooting someone who is standing right in front of him, stationary. With the Joker, the character that Silva is obviously modelled on, there are so many demonstrations of his mania throughout the film, that the audiences is left in no doubt. With Silva himself, we're expected to believe he's a psychotic because he acts strange.

    IMO, we haven't had a truly knockout Bond villain since Scaramanga. Since then we've had bad villains, and villains that are functional for the story they're telling but don't really have much dimension outside of that. It just occurred to me that, if they were to do a standalone film in a soft reboot format, and have Bond and Bond girl take more of a backseat, then the villain and the evil plan would be the obvious thing to fall back on. The beauty of that is that the Villain needs a believable motivation anyway, so the examination of this character could fit much more naturally into a standalone adventure. It could be a really frugal move from a production standpoint - hire one solid actor to give a great performance at the heart of the film, and hang all the other roles around it. The performance could form the spine of the film, and by the time Bond and Villian are fighting it out at the end, it would have real weight because we feel we know this guy almost as much as we know Bond.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    boldfinger wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm not sure if I agree. I thought GE had plenty of atmosphere. It was uncharacteristically modern in places (such as M's new office and anything at MI6), but also had a retro flavour in Moscow/Monaco etc which recalled some of the old classics. I also felt that the Janus HQ echoed some of Adam's larger than life control rooms (but of course far less inventive or extravagant).

    I actually thought that GE had far more Bondian atmosphere than some of Glen's later efforts, particularly LTK & AVTAK, but even OP & TLD. Ever since Adam left the scene with MR the traditional eccentric Bondian feel seemed to be missing and GE brought some of that back, at least for me.

    I agree on the excess of tensionless & poorly realized action & the lack of confidence, but feel that this actually began in earnest with the 'by the numbers' TND and not with GE, which still had that old school thriller feel to it in my view.
    I hold it for Campbell that he gave the films a certain kind of signature, and in that regard GE has plenty of more atmosphere than the next three films. Yet still, in combination with what I call lack of confidence, GE layed the groundwork for what was to come. To be fair, it could have been followed in a very different kind of way.
    This is exactly how I feel about CR as well. Both Campbell's entries laid the groundwork for their respective actor's tenures. Brosnan's was a greatest hits nostalgia package and Craig's has been an angst ridden introspective. Neither was necessary. Both tenures have been victims of Campbell's success in launching them.
    bondjames wrote: »
    @Mendes4Lyfe, I agree with your last post, but I think Mendes already nailed this with SF. Bond and Bond girl (?) were quite incidental to the villain and M in that one, and I think that is why it worked so well. The angst emanated from those two, and not from Bond (despite childhood home at the end).

    I'd like to see more of that going forward. Bond is in every film after all, and we learn about him through the years as we see him react to various situations and scenarios around him. I'm completely against further 'peel back' of the character. It's become quite tiresome to me and that's why I'm looking forward to a soft reboot.

    You're right, I guess Silva was kinda the focus. But to me, his backstory was never that compelling. The problem for me there is that we are told too much and not shown enough. Silva was apparently a top agent like Bond in his day, and yet we don't see any evidence of that. All we know for sure is that he's a computer genius, and even that is told to us through inference. The only demonstration of skill or menace from him is shooting someone who is standing right in front of him, stationary. With the Joker, the character that Silva is obviously modelled on, there are so many demonstrations of his mania throughout the film, that the audiences is left in no doubt. With Silva himself, we're asked to believe he's a psychotic because he acts strange.

    IMO, we haven't had a truly knockout Bond villain since Scaramanga. Since then we've had bad villains, and villains that are functional for the story they're telling but don't really have much dimension outside of that. It just occurred to me that, if they were to do a standalone film in a soft reboot format, and have Bond and Bond girl take more of a backseat, then the villain and the evil plan would be the obvious thing to fall back on. The beauty of that is that the Villain needs a believable motivation anyway, so the examination of this character could fit much more naturally into a standalone adventure. It could be a really frugal move from a production standpoint - hire one solid actor to give a great performance at the heart of the film, and hang all the other roles around it. The performance could form the spine of the film, and by the time Bond and Villian are fighting it out at the end, it would have real weight because we feel we know this guy almost as much as we know Bond.
    I agree and I think it wouldn't be all that difficult to do. I think we're at a moment when that would work very well. The timing is right, after what has come before.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,553
    Jazz007 wrote: »
    "Beg your pardon, forgot to knock."

    Really? Do you usually knock before barging in on a closed stall? And the guard just sits there for a good handful of seconds, letting Bond spew out the first of many stupid jokes from 1995-2002 without immediately jumping or yelling in a spastic reaction to someone suddenly appearing hanging over you with your pants around your ankles?

    So it starts bad - and then gets more exciting when Sean Bean and Gottfried John enter the picture - and then deforms back into stupidity as Bond defies all ideas of physics as he jumps off the cliff and actually catches the plane that's falling off the cliff in one of the most fake-looking action scenes in the entire 007 series. It's hard to shake off the PTS for me when looking at GE, even with all of its many other good aspects.

    I think we can accept a little "nonsense" in a Bond film for comedic effect or to see some cool action. The "forgot to knock" moment earned Brosnan a big applause and I too find it immensely enjoyable. Thugs have been waiting for their turn since the earlier Connery days, just watching Bond knock the life out of others before finally launching themselves at him. By 1995, it had become a widely accepted conceit in the Bonds. I rather like the startled expression on the soldier's face.

    The physics I can partly agree with, though I rather like the stunt work involved. It's true that Bond is never going to catch that plane in free fall since both are technically falling equally fast (if we neglect air resistance), and what little Bond may gain from diving more aerodynamically is never going to suffice to crawl inside the plane and turn its vector almost completely around before hitting the ground. But as with the parachute fight in the MR PTS, the stunt work is impressive and slightly more important to me than the physical reality of the situation. Besides, the physical plausibility is at best a little stretched but not entirely pooped on. We often allow Bond the "five minutes into the future" conceit; well, I for one also allow Bond a "five degrees of physical anomaly" conceit. ;-)

    I wouldn't get too worked up over it if I were you, @Jazz007. Enjoy the PTS for what it is, even if it isn't a textbook example of pure physics or or the most solid psychological probability. Even the "serious" and "realistic" Nolan Batman films defy the laws of physics in some inconspicuous places. But it doesn't eat away the pure entertainment value for me. ;-)
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited May 2017 Posts: 15,690
    @bondjames concerning the 'peeling off the layers of Bond's character', you should check out 'John Wick 2'. I don't recall if you saw the 1st one, but in the sequel they very much expanded the hitman universe the Wick franchise operates in, while still keeping Keanu Reeve's character very mysterious (we still know practically nothing of his past, apart from the 'impossible task' mentioned in the 1st film, and the '3 pencil kills' story that was once again mentioned in the intro to the 2nd film).
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2017 Posts: 23,883
    @DaltonCraig007, I didn't get a chance to see the 2nd one yet, but I have seen the first one. I will definitely pick it up shortly.

    I finally got round to seeing Logan, and while I enjoyed it, I found it a little too angst ridden for my liking as well. Having said that, Logan has always been that kind of character (from the start of Jackman's interpretation). Similar to Craig's Bond in that respect. Started out with issues....and it remains to be seen how it closes out in the case of Craig.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,090
    bondjames wrote: »
    boldfinger wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm not sure if I agree. I thought GE had plenty of atmosphere. It was uncharacteristically modern in places (such as M's new office and anything at MI6), but also had a retro flavour in Moscow/Monaco etc which recalled some of the old classics. I also felt that the Janus HQ echoed some of Adam's larger than life control rooms (but of course far less inventive or extravagant).

    I actually thought that GE had far more Bondian atmosphere than some of Glen's later efforts, particularly LTK & AVTAK, but even OP & TLD. Ever since Adam left the scene with MR the traditional eccentric Bondian feel seemed to be missing and GE brought some of that back, at least for me.

    I agree on the excess of tensionless & poorly realized action & the lack of confidence, but feel that this actually began in earnest with the 'by the numbers' TND and not with GE, which still had that old school thriller feel to it in my view.
    I hold it for Campbell that he gave the films a certain kind of signature, and in that regard GE has plenty of more atmosphere than the next three films. Yet still, in combination with what I call lack of confidence, GE layed the groundwork for what was to come. To be fair, it could have been followed in a very different kind of way.
    This is exactly how I feel about CR as well. Both Campbell's entries laid the groundwork for their respective actor's tenures. Brosnan's was a greatest hits nostalgia package and Craig's has been an angst ridden introspective. Neither was necessary. Both tenures have been victims of Campbell's success in launching them.
    bondjames wrote: »
    @Mendes4Lyfe, I agree with your last post, but I think Mendes already nailed this with SF. Bond and Bond girl (?) were quite incidental to the villain and M in that one, and I think that is why it worked so well. The angst emanated from those two, and not from Bond (despite childhood home at the end).

    I'd like to see more of that going forward. Bond is in every film after all, and we learn about him through the years as we see him react to various situations and scenarios around him. I'm completely against further 'peel back' of the character. It's become quite tiresome to me and that's why I'm looking forward to a soft reboot.

    You're right, I guess Silva was kinda the focus. But to me, his backstory was never that compelling. The problem for me there is that we are told too much and not shown enough. Silva was apparently a top agent like Bond in his day, and yet we don't see any evidence of that. All we know for sure is that he's a computer genius, and even that is told to us through inference. The only demonstration of skill or menace from him is shooting someone who is standing right in front of him, stationary. With the Joker, the character that Silva is obviously modelled on, there are so many demonstrations of his mania throughout the film, that the audiences is left in no doubt. With Silva himself, we're asked to believe he's a psychotic because he acts strange.

    IMO, we haven't had a truly knockout Bond villain since Scaramanga. Since then we've had bad villains, and villains that are functional for the story they're telling but don't really have much dimension outside of that. It just occurred to me that, if they were to do a standalone film in a soft reboot format, and have Bond and Bond girl take more of a backseat, then the villain and the evil plan would be the obvious thing to fall back on. The beauty of that is that the Villain needs a believable motivation anyway, so the examination of this character could fit much more naturally into a standalone adventure. It could be a really frugal move from a production standpoint - hire one solid actor to give a great performance at the heart of the film, and hang all the other roles around it. The performance could form the spine of the film, and by the time Bond and Villian are fighting it out at the end, it would have real weight because we feel we know this guy almost as much as we know Bond.
    I agree and I think it wouldn't be all that difficult to do. I think we're at a moment when that would work very well. The timing is right, after what has come before.

    Exactly! It's perfectly set up. It wouldn't be a complex script to write, or a costly film to shoot. All they need is a strong director to pull it off, since it really would be a tricky balancing act to get right. The best thing about it is that, if we're constantly cutting back and forth between Bond and Villian, one setting up the dominos, the other knocking them over, there wouldn't even be the need for excessive action. The film would be so kinetic by design, that they could get away with more sneaking and genuine spy work, and only build to the action when it is deserved. We would see the gap between Bond and Villain getting narrower and narrower, and it would give everything a natural tension until they inevitably collide.
  • Posts: 5,767
    bondjames wrote: »
    boldfinger wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm not sure if I agree. I thought GE had plenty of atmosphere. It was uncharacteristically modern in places (such as M's new office and anything at MI6), but also had a retro flavour in Moscow/Monaco etc which recalled some of the old classics. I also felt that the Janus HQ echoed some of Adam's larger than life control rooms (but of course far less inventive or extravagant).

    I actually thought that GE had far more Bondian atmosphere than some of Glen's later efforts, particularly LTK & AVTAK, but even OP & TLD. Ever since Adam left the scene with MR the traditional eccentric Bondian feel seemed to be missing and GE brought some of that back, at least for me.

    I agree on the excess of tensionless & poorly realized action & the lack of confidence, but feel that this actually began in earnest with the 'by the numbers' TND and not with GE, which still had that old school thriller feel to it in my view.
    I hold it for Campbell that he gave the films a certain kind of signature, and in that regard GE has plenty of more atmosphere than the next three films. Yet still, in combination with what I call lack of confidence, GE layed the groundwork for what was to come. To be fair, it could have been followed in a very different kind of way.
    This is exactly how I feel about CR as well. Both Campbell's entries laid the groundwork for their respective actor's tenures. Brosnan's was a greatest hits nostalgia package and Craig's has been an angst ridden introspective. Neither was necessary. Both tenures have been victims of Campbell's success in launching them.
    This is a very solid point, which automatically questions the capability of the producers. Both Brosnan´s and Craig´s tenure prove how little B&M understood the potential of the respective first films.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,979
    bondjames wrote: »
    boldfinger wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm not sure if I agree. I thought GE had plenty of atmosphere. It was uncharacteristically modern in places (such as M's new office and anything at MI6), but also had a retro flavour in Moscow/Monaco etc which recalled some of the old classics. I also felt that the Janus HQ echoed some of Adam's larger than life control rooms (but of course far less inventive or extravagant).

    I actually thought that GE had far more Bondian atmosphere than some of Glen's later efforts, particularly LTK & AVTAK, but even OP & TLD. Ever since Adam left the scene with MR the traditional eccentric Bondian feel seemed to be missing and GE brought some of that back, at least for me.

    I agree on the excess of tensionless & poorly realized action & the lack of confidence, but feel that this actually began in earnest with the 'by the numbers' TND and not with GE, which still had that old school thriller feel to it in my view.
    I hold it for Campbell that he gave the films a certain kind of signature, and in that regard GE has plenty of more atmosphere than the next three films. Yet still, in combination with what I call lack of confidence, GE layed the groundwork for what was to come. To be fair, it could have been followed in a very different kind of way.
    This is exactly how I feel about CR as well. Both Campbell's entries laid the groundwork for their respective actor's tenures. Brosnan's was a greatest hits nostalgia package and Craig's has been an angst ridden introspective. Neither was necessary. Both tenures have been victims of Campbell's success in launching them.
    bondjames wrote: »
    @Mendes4Lyfe, I agree with your last post, but I think Mendes already nailed this with SF. Bond and Bond girl (?) were quite incidental to the villain and M in that one, and I think that is why it worked so well. The angst emanated from those two, and not from Bond (despite childhood home at the end).

    I'd like to see more of that going forward. Bond is in every film after all, and we learn about him through the years as we see him react to various situations and scenarios around him. I'm completely against further 'peel back' of the character. It's become quite tiresome to me and that's why I'm looking forward to a soft reboot.

    You're right, I guess Silva was kinda the focus. But to me, his backstory was never that compelling. The problem for me there is that we are told too much and not shown enough. Silva was apparently a top agent like Bond in his day, and yet we don't see any evidence of that. All we know for sure is that he's a computer genius, and even that is told to us through inference. The only demonstration of skill or menace from him is shooting someone who is standing right in front of him, stationary. With the Joker, the character that Silva is obviously modelled on, there are so many demonstrations of his mania throughout the film, that the audiences is left in no doubt. With Silva himself, we're asked to believe he's a psychotic because he acts strange.

    IMO, we haven't had a truly knockout Bond villain since Scaramanga. Since then we've had bad villains, and villains that are functional for the story they're telling but don't really have much dimension outside of that. It just occurred to me that, if they were to do a standalone film in a soft reboot format, and have Bond and Bond girl take more of a backseat, then the villain and the evil plan would be the obvious thing to fall back on. The beauty of that is that the Villain needs a believable motivation anyway, so the examination of this character could fit much more naturally into a standalone adventure. It could be a really frugal move from a production standpoint - hire one solid actor to give a great performance at the heart of the film, and hang all the other roles around it. The performance could form the spine of the film, and by the time Bond and Villian are fighting it out at the end, it would have real weight because we feel we know this guy almost as much as we know Bond.
    I agree and I think it wouldn't be all that difficult to do. I think we're at a moment when that would work very well. The timing is right, after what has come before.

    Exactly! It's perfectly set up. It wouldn't be a complex script to write, or a costly film to shoot. All they need is a strong director to pull it off, since it really would be a tricky balancing act to get right. The best thing about it is that, if we're constantly cutting back and forth between Bond and Villian, one setting up the dominos, the other knocking them over, there wouldn't even be the need for excessive action. The film would be so kinetic by design, that they could get away with more sneaking and genuine spy work, and only build to the action when it is deserved. We would see the gap between Bond and Villain getting narrower and narrower, and it would give everything a natural tension until they inevitably collide.

    I think you're underestimating the challenge of staring down the history of the previous 24 films.

    And c'mon, Campbell is probably the most important Bond director after Young. He jump-started two very different eras of Bond.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Big claims being made for Campbell. Campbell more important than Hamilton and Young?
  • edited May 2017 Posts: 4,600
    To deal with an actor new to the role and, arguably, bring our their best work deserves real credit. To do this twice deserves double the credit. In addition, to "press the reset button" and produce a Bond for a new era is also tricky. He is clearly a clever chap and I would make comparisons with Peter Hunt for the same factors.
Sign In or Register to comment.