Is Thunderball Overrated?

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  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,101
    For me Thunderball, is THE quintessential Bond film. It has absolutely everything:

    Connery at his most confident,
    impossibly beautiful women including a devilish femme fatale,
    a memorable villain with a weird trademark,
    faceless Blofeld,
    Felix Leiter,
    a great PTS,
    a spectacular finale,
    SPECTRE,
    extraordinary cinematography,
    John Barry music,
    Ken Adam sets,
    Terence Young direction.

    While GF might be more iconic, TB perfects the formula and includes for instance the femme fatale and the exotic widescreen scenery. Therefore it is my number 1 Bond film.
  • edited December 2015 Posts: 11,425
    I agree with a lot of the list. What I don't agree with is that when Young puts that list together he managed to create a top notch Bond movie.

    There are a lot of parallels with SF for me. When I break the films down into constituent parts there are a lot of elements and ideas I love, but as a whole the film doesn't work for me.

    Having said that, I'd rather watch TB any day!
  • sunsanvilsunsanvil Somewhere in Canada....somewhere.
    Posts: 260
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    For me Thunderball, is THE quintessential Bond film. It has absolutely everything:

    Connery at his most confident,
    impossibly beautiful women including a devilish femme fatale,
    a memorable villain with a weird trademark,
    faceless Blofeld,
    Felix Leiter,
    a great PTS,
    a spectacular finale,
    SPECTRE,
    extraordinary cinematography,
    John Barry music,
    Ken Adam sets,
    Terence Young direction.

    While GF might be more iconic, TB perfects the formula and includes for instance the femme fatale and the exotic widescreen scenery. Therefore it is my number 1 Bond film.

    Well said sir!
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,252
    sunsanvil wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    For me Thunderball, is THE quintessential Bond film. It has absolutely everything:

    Connery at his most confident,
    impossibly beautiful women including a devilish femme fatale,
    a memorable villain with a weird trademark,
    faceless Blofeld,
    Felix Leiter,
    a great PTS,
    a spectacular finale,
    SPECTRE,
    extraordinary cinematography,
    John Barry music,
    Ken Adam sets,
    Terence Young direction.

    While GF might be more iconic, TB perfects the formula and includes for instance the femme fatale and the exotic widescreen scenery. Therefore it is my number 1 Bond film.

    Well said sir!

    Can't argue with any of that lot either and I too prefer TB to GF, which definitely is overrated!
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited December 2015 Posts: 9,117
    sunsanvil wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    For me Thunderball, is THE quintessential Bond film. It has absolutely everything:

    Connery at his most confident,
    impossibly beautiful women including a devilish femme fatale,
    a memorable villain with a weird trademark,
    faceless Blofeld,
    Felix Leiter,
    a great PTS,
    a spectacular finale,
    SPECTRE,
    extraordinary cinematography,
    John Barry music,
    Ken Adam sets,
    Terence Young direction.

    While GF might be more iconic, TB perfects the formula and includes for instance the femme fatale and the exotic widescreen scenery. Therefore it is my number 1 Bond film.

    Well said sir!

    So the mere fact the film has a confident Connery, Felix, SPECTRE, John Barry music and Ken Adam sets makes it good?

    Exhibit A = DAF. Has all of the above and is extremely poor.

    I'm also a little confused as to why everyone keeps saying the film has a memorable villain in the shape of the dull Emilio Largo. He's not even the most memorable villain in his own film for Christ's sake.

    The worst villain of the 60s films by some considerable distance.

    In addition Scaramanga, Drax, Orlov, Khan, Zorin, Sanchez, Trevelyan, Carver, Le Chiffre, Silva, Oberhauser are all far more memorable.

    Largo is probably in the bottom third when it comes to 'memorable' Bond villains along with Gray's Blofeld, Kananga, Stromberg, Kristatos, Koskov, Elektra, Graves and Greene.

    Not saying he's utterly awful but he's the dictionary definition of average.

    So mediocre he could've been played by Rory Kinnear!

    One thing you certainly cant criticise the Craig era for is the fact that these days we are hiring serious talent to play the villain instead of Eurotrash nobodies like Celi.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited December 2015 Posts: 7,101
    What do yo consider Eurotrash, may I ask?

    Adolfo Celi starred in Le Fantôme de la Liberté by Luis Buñuel, Diabolik by Mario Bava and also appeared in Von Ryan's Express, Grand Prix and Carol Reed's The Agony and Extacy.

    Not entirely a nobody I'd say.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,956
    Wow, Celi IS in 'The Agony and the Ecstasy.' Amazing film, haven't seen it since high school and I never realized that's him in it.
  • edited December 2015 Posts: 15,086
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    What do yo consider Eurotrash, may I ask?

    Adolfo Celi starred in Le Fantôme de la Liberté by Luis Buñuel, Diabolik by Mario Bava and also appeared in Von Ryan's Express, Grand Prix and Carol Reed's The Agony and Extacy.

    Not entirely a nobody I'd say.

    There is indeed nothing Eurotrash about Adolfo Celi. Or about Largo.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Perhaps I'm doing Celi a slight disservice. He's competent enough and probably a reasonable name in Italy but just because he appeared in a few films by decent directors hardly makes him premier league though.

    I note you didn't mention Operation Kid Brother when you were listing his credentials?

    In any event Yaphet Kotto, Curd Jurgens, Julian Glover, Robert Carlyle and Mathieu Almaric are all very decent actors but it doesn't make their Bond villains any less underwhelming.





  • Posts: 1,098
    Perhaps I'm doing Celi a slight disservice. He's competent enough and probably a reasonable name in Italy but just because he appeared in a few films by decent directors hardly makes him premier league though.

    I note you didn't mention Operation Kid Brother when you were listing his credentials?

    In any event Yaphet Kotto, Curd Jurgens, Julian Glover, Robert Carlyle and Mathieu Almaric are all very decent actors but it doesn't make their Bond villains any less underwhelming.

    I thought Adolfo Celi in TB was fine.

    I agree, that in particular Curt Jurgens as Stromberg was not very memorable in TSWLM.

  • Posts: 11,425
    I always enjoyed Kurt Jurgens as Stromberg. Nice performance IMO.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2015 Posts: 23,883
    I preferred Largo to Oberhauser to be frank.

    I liked the love triangle and Celi demonstrated a menacing jealousy as Largo that was discomforting, particularly on the boat. A thug looking chap certainly and a physical match for Connery.

    Not as whiney as Greene or Carver in similar situations. Only Sanchez seemed like a similar fella a girl wouldn't want to cross. "What did he promise you? His heart? Give her his heart!"
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,578
    TB is solidly in my top 4. It has several things going for it:

    1. Witty dialogue, arguably the wittiest dialogue of any Bond film.
    2. Two distinct acts, each with its own level of intrigue: Shrublands and Nassau. Both are confining, for different reasons. The confinement bolsters the level of suspense.
    3. As another poster mentioned: the underwater sequences, for that time, are extraordinary.
    4. The scene between Bond and Fiona, after they have slept together. It is the most emotionally gut-wrenching scene of any of the Connery films. And anyone who has slept with someone for all the wrong reasons would understand the emotional underpinnings of that scene. Bond says, not all too convincingly, "What I did was for king and country. You don't think there was any pleasure in it, do you?" Oh, man, the look on Connery's face says it all. He is indeed conflicted. Of COURSE he enjoyed it. And she did too. But business is business. Oh what a scene!
    5. Great Tom Jones title track!
    6. Bond's mission is clear, with a definitive deadline. This also ups the ante.
    7. The flight sequence, with the water landing, is superb--again, especially for that era. Notice how the special effects took a step backwards with YOLT.
    8. Vargas.
    9. Domino is one of the sexiest Bond girls ever.
    10. The PTS isn't too shabby, either.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    sunsanvil wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    For me Thunderball, is THE quintessential Bond film. It has absolutely everything:

    Connery at his most confident,
    impossibly beautiful women including a devilish femme fatale,
    a memorable villain with a weird trademark,
    faceless Blofeld,
    Felix Leiter,
    a great PTS,
    a spectacular finale,
    SPECTRE,
    extraordinary cinematography,
    John Barry music,
    Ken Adam sets,
    Terence Young direction.

    While GF might be more iconic, TB perfects the formula and includes for instance the femme fatale and the exotic widescreen scenery. Therefore it is my number 1 Bond film.

    Well said sir!

    Can't argue with any of that lot either and I too prefer TB to GF, which definitely is overrated!

    I don't think GF is overrated in the slightest. This whole 'formula' thing is a fallacy. The Bond formula is something applicable to the canon as a whole, not necessarily individual films, which is why I find those films that attempt to shoehorn in everything considered 'formula' work less well than those that do fewer things, but well and more uniquely. GF is lean, it's tight, it has one of the best villains in the canon (Largo doesn't even come close), unique locations, action, some of the best dialogue in the series and an indelible soundtrack. It's a real shame that GF has become the default 'best' film for your average cinema goers because I think it taints it's brilliance for the 'hardcore' who tend to be contrarians and consider themselves a little more esoteric. I'm happy to go with the crowd, I think GF is seminal and sorely underrated around these parts. It's the only 60's film that could be released today and still be an enormous hit imo.
  • edited December 2015 Posts: 4,622
    timmer wrote: »
    All time greatest films ever made including non Bond.

    1. DAF
    2. TB
    3. YOLT


    Utterly risible. 3 best films of a time? They aren't even the 3 best Connery Bonds.

    But that's in your "risible" opinion, so who gives a crap. We all have our personal favourites. Those are my desert island films and I consider them the best films ever made. Best of course being a relative term and I really don't defer to film critics in such matters or other so-called intelligentsia.
    Maybe if we were in film class and there were strictly defined criteria we had to objectively apply, my list might turn out to be 12 Angry Men, Citizen Kane and Apolalypse Now or maybe not, but such an exercise doesn't interest me.

    Most intelligent people on here have FRWL top 5 and DN there or there abouts along with OHMSS which also has long periods where not a lot happens.

    If TB is slagged off its because it's not very good not because it's a bit slow in parts.
    Again with the eltitism and Bond snobbery. Most intelligent people blah blah blah.........
    I don't really give a damn, Scarlett, if someone might put DAD on top !...Doesn't reflect on their intelligence.

    I have seen TB at least 6 times on the big screen. It's never dragged and its never dragged on the small screen either, the 20 or 30 times I've watched it, but I can see why others think it might, especially the underwater bits, but I've never found them to drag. I am always looking for new things I might not have focused on in previous viewings or savouring the bits I like.
    There's a lot going on in that extended underwater battle.

    TB is deftly crafted I'd say. Yes Young has said he was overwhelmed by it all. In fact I'm not sure he even finished the film, but between him and the others that finished, they did a damn fine job.
    TB even got a standing O when I saw it at the Tiff Bond festival in 2012 in 4k digital.
    Its a crowd pleaser. Lot of good lines from Connery.

    TB is one of those Bond films that has a longish feel ,and feel is the operative word as opposed to actual length.
    The film requires a commit. I find you don't just pop it in. You commit and settle in, much like OHMSS, SF and CR, although those 3 are actual long films too.
    The 3 Gilbert films require a commit too I think.
    The Guy Hamilton films plus DN and FRWL, along with all the Glenn and Broz films, plus QoS, I can just pop in

    Wiz you are smart enough to know that Bond fandom is really alll about preference. Eg the SF lovers are no more intelligent than the SF haters.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    RC7 wrote: »
    J I'm happy to go with the crowd, I think GF is seminal and sorely underrated around these parts.
    Tides. They come & go.
    IMO GF is about equal to DN & FRWL (classics).
    TB is great mainly because of Connery & some great dialogue.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,264
    sunsanvil wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    For me Thunderball, is THE quintessential Bond film. It has absolutely everything:

    Connery at his most confident,
    impossibly beautiful women including a devilish femme fatale,
    a memorable villain with a weird trademark,
    faceless Blofeld,
    Felix Leiter,
    a great PTS,
    a spectacular finale,
    SPECTRE,
    extraordinary cinematography,
    John Barry music,
    Ken Adam sets,
    Terence Young direction.

    While GF might be more iconic, TB perfects the formula and includes for instance the femme fatale and the exotic widescreen scenery. Therefore it is my number 1 Bond film.

    Well said sir!

    So the mere fact the film has a confident Connery, Felix, SPECTRE, John Barry music and Ken Adam sets makes it good?

    Exhibit A = DAF. Has all of the above and is extremely poor.

    I'm also a little confused as to why everyone keeps saying the film has a memorable villain in the shape of the dull Emilio Largo. He's not even the most memorable villain in his own film for Christ's sake.

    The worst villain of the 60s films by some considerable distance.

    In addition Scaramanga, Drax, Orlov, Khan, Zorin, Sanchez, Trevelyan, Carver, Le Chiffre, Silva, Oberhauser are all far more memorable.

    Largo is probably in the bottom third when it comes to 'memorable' Bond villains along with Gray's Blofeld, Kananga, Stromberg, Kristatos, Koskov, Elektra, Graves and Greene.

    Not saying he's utterly awful but he's the dictionary definition of average.

    So mediocre he could've been played by Rory Kinnear!

    One thing you certainly cant criticise the Craig era for is the fact that these days we are hiring serious talent to play the villain instead of Eurotrash nobodies like Celi.

    I could not agree more with your post.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,101
    Perhaps I'm doing Celi a slight disservice. He's competent enough and probably a reasonable name in Italy but just because he appeared in a few films by decent directors hardly makes him premier league though.

    I note you didn't mention Operation Kid Brother when you were listing his credentials?

    In any event Yaphet Kotto, Curd Jurgens, Julian Glover, Robert Carlyle and Mathieu Almaric are all very decent actors but it doesn't make their Bond villains any less underwhelming.

    Of course I didn't. If I wanted to list Mads Mikkelsen's credentials I wouldn't mention Clash of the Titans either.
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    Posts: 1,729
    I'd agree that TB has some of, if not the wittiest dialogue of the series. And after FRWL I rate this as Connery's 2nd best performance in the role, actually.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    sunsanvil wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I may be one of the few to rate TB far ahead of GF, even on pacing. Once Bond gets to Kentucky I almost fall asleep during GF these days. TB still holds my attention despite the underwater scenes, thanks to Barry's superb score.

    You are not as alone as you think. I totally agree and, honestly, I personally don't really understand the discord expressed here. Maybe if you look at the film exclusively through the eye of hindsight it looks less than it is, but a purer more empirical look will likely yield what the documentary aptly called "The Thunderball Phenomenon". People went APE for this movie in 65. Did the whole world share some sort of mass delusion? I think not.

    For me the film embodies the core of what Bond movies are founded on: unapologetic escapism. The pacing, acting, action, story, whatever, is fine. If it weren't I wouldn't have been able to sit through it the last dozen or so times through.

    Agreed.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2015 Posts: 23,883
    I'm very happy that this film, rather than another, has been (still is?) the box office champ for this franchise.

    In my estimation, it is a worthy holder of that title and encapsulates everything that Bond is and should be for the masses. Just pure class all round. The only other film that I would want in that lead position is TSWLM, for similar reasons.
  • Posts: 15,086
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm very happy that this film, rather than another, has been (still is?) the box office champ for this franchise.

    In my estimation, it is a worthy holder of that title and encapsulates everything that Bond is and should be for the masses. Just pure class all round. The only other film that I would want in that lead position is TSWLM, for similar reasons.

    But I'd argue that TB is a far more proper James Bond. TSWLM dwells far too much into sci-fi territory. TB is a proper espionage operation.

    And some people say here that there's no feel of urgency, of what's at stake. I disagree. Such a scheme would be dealt with exactly like this: with investigation and what it requires of discretion.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm very happy that this film, rather than another, has been (still is?) the box office champ for this franchise.

    In my estimation, it is a worthy holder of that title and encapsulates everything that Bond is and should be for the masses. Just pure class all round. The only other film that I would want in that lead position is TSWLM, for similar reasons.

    But I'd argue that TB is a far more proper James Bond. TSWLM dwells far too much into sci-fi territory. TB is a proper espionage operation.

    And some people say here that there's no feel of urgency, of what's at stake. I disagree. Such a scheme would be dealt with exactly like this: with investigation and what it requires of discretion.
    Yes, I agree. TSWLM is perhaps just a little too OTT, but they both capture what makes James Bond films special imho, and do it with panache & visual elegance, which is a key differentiator. TB deserves its crown, I think.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Having just come back from 10 days in a sunny climate myself, one of the joys of TB is that it feels like you are almost on holiday with Bond when you watch it.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    Yes, just what one needs in dreary England at the moment hey? ;)
  • sunsanvilsunsanvil Somewhere in Canada....somewhere.
    Posts: 260
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Having just come back from 10 days in a sunny climate myself, one of the joys of TB is that it feels like you are almost on holiday with Bond when you watch it.

    Absolutely. Thunderball somehow manages to convey the sunny exotic locale in a way no other film does for me.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    sunsanvil wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Having just come back from 10 days in a sunny climate myself, one of the joys of TB is that it feels like you are almost on holiday with Bond when you watch it.

    Absolutely. Thunderball somehow manages to convey the sunny exotic locale in a way no other film does for me.

    It's because it's juxtaposed with the mundanity of a British health spa. This is what Fleming always did best and is why I don't mind more significant use of British locations (earlier in a film). You need the light and shade, the balance of English stoicism with the exoticism of far flung locales. While I feel TB, objectively, is more bloated and indulgent than it's predecessors, it does nail this aspect.
  • edited December 2015 Posts: 2,015
    TripAces wrote: »
    4. The scene between Bond and Fiona, after they have slept together. It is the most emotionally gut-wrenching scene of any of the Connery films. And anyone who has slept with someone for all the wrong reasons would understand the emotional underpinnings of that scene. Bond says, not all too convincingly, "What I did was for king and country. You don't think there was any pleasure in it, do you?" Oh, man, the look on Connery's face says it all. He is indeed conflicted. Of COURSE he enjoyed it. And she did too. But business is business. Oh what a scene!

    IMO, at that time, it was a direct reference to the Pussy Galore scene the year before, understood probably by most of the audience. Fiona basically quoted the Pussy Galore twist " She repents, and turns to the side of right and virtue", and Bond explained he would not save the day in the same way this time, despite already having succeeded with the therapist earlier in the movie.

    To me, "Well, you can't win them all" can be perceived as breaking the fourth wall.

    So I feel it had some strong intended humour in it that may be less present now.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,193
    Last year I spent a week in Cancun for a wedding. The two Bond's I watched before going
    were Thunderball and Casino Royale, both for their tropical settings.
  • Posts: 2,341
    The conversation regarding Largo. He looks imposing and all what with the eye patch and his cool demeanor but he does pale when lined up against the villains who came before him (Julius No, Red Grant, Rosa Klebb, Auric Goldfinger). Maybe we just expected more from him in this "biggest Bond of them all" film.

    Domino appears very virginal (even though Largo has been shagging her) like Solataire and her beauty is almost overwhelming but she comes in fourth when compared to the leading ladies in the previous films.

    Fiona is one of the brightest spots in this epic film. that face, that flame red hair, that drop dead body. I daresay she is the hottest of the women in the Bond films.
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