Has Mission Impossible surpassed Bond?

1235722

Comments

  • Posts: 154
    good point.
  • Posts: 154
    Ludovico wrote: »
    although I disagree that women are generally poorer at fighting than men. And first hand experience training in Krav Maga told me that most women can be just as capable as men are, some even more so...

    I'll believe that when I start seeing women go head-to-head with men in championship boxing.

    Look, I'm not knocking women (I love them). Their strengths are simply not the same as men's strengths. Women can, on average, do many physical things better than men but men have the upper hand in fighting due to their, on average, greater brute strength.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    because an angry woman can be very dangerous.

    NO ARGUMENT THERE!
  • SandySandy Somewhere in Europe
    Posts: 4,012
    [
    gklein wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    although I disagree that women are generally poorer at fighting than men. And first hand experience training in Krav Maga told me that most women can be just as capable as men are, some even more so...

    I'll believe that when I start seeing women go head-to-head with men in championship boxing.

    Look, I'm not knocking women (I love them). Their strengths are simply not the same as men's strengths. Women can, on average, do many physical things better than men but men have the upper hand in fighting due to their, on average, greater brute strength.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    because an angry woman can be very dangerous.

    NO ARGUMENT THERE!

    Ah, so you think fighting is about brute strength? Interesting... :-B
  • Posts: 154
    Fighting is about skill and strength, of course. If a man and a woman have equal fighting skill, the average woman will still be at a disadvantage against the average man, because she will be physically weaker. The whole reason women's boxing is separate from men's boxing, is because it's unfair to the women to pit them against the men. Surely you don't argue that??
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 154
    Similarly, overall women are better at gymnastics, because, on average, women are more flexible than men. That one is a documented fact. You might be surprised to learn that there are many other scientifically documented facts proving that women and men, as a whole, are better at different physical things.
  • SandySandy Somewhere in Europe
    Posts: 4,012
    gklein wrote: »
    Similarly, overall women are better at gymnastics, because, on average, women are more flexible than men. That one is a documented fact. You might be surprised do learn that there many other scientifically document facts proving that women and men are, as a whole, are better at different physical things.

    And you might be surprised to learn that I am a scientist, specialist in Andrology, I know a thing or two about male physiology. You should stop writing outdated stereotypes as "facts" in every post you make, this is the 21st century after all.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Bond girls are to the Bond universe what Juliet, Ophelia, Lady Macbeth, Viola and so on are to Shakespeare's plays.
    That's possibly overstating it a bit, although I agree they are a little more than damsels in distress, or at least appear to be.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    And, to get back on topic, I'd take most Bond girls over any of the female characters of MI I saw. Even Bibi, Lupe Lamore and maybe even Mary Goodnight (she was a ditz, but at least she had personality) over the window dressing ones of MI.
    Then I recommend that you watch these MI films again, particularly 1 and 5. Claire Phelps & Ilsa Faust are just as complex as anything we've had in most Bond films.
    gklein wrote: »
    God/Nature (whatever) designed men to be the protector and women to the be nurturer.
    I can assure you, I've met some women who don't subscribe to this point of view (physically as well as in other ways). Quite frankly, if they can bring home the bacon, I'm open to being a nurturer as well. They can take on the protection job if they want it. It's not all it's cracked up to be, and the pay sucks.

  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Men better at: driving, map reading, hooking up the TV to the DVD player.

    Women better at: washing, ironing, nagging.

    Those are just well known facts aren't they?
  • Posts: 154
    Sandy wrote: »


    586.gif

    Society considers it very wrong (usually illegal in most of the U.S.) for a man to hit a woman, even if she has first hit him, but it's considered acceptable (even expected and quite often legally justified) for a man to hit another man after he's first been hit by the other man.

    Do you consider this double-standard to be sexist? It's a serious question.

  • edited November 2015 Posts: 154
    The above question may be answered by anyone brave enough to answer honestly & justify his/her answer in way that doesn't contradict his/her other beliefs on "sexism" & male/female equality.
  • I'm just gonna chime in by saying that discussions like these tend to often get out of hand, but I feel nobody here is trying to offend anybody. It's hard to argue that there are key differences between men and women and that the "ass-kicking superchick" is as much of a stereotype as the bikini clad bimbo.

    People tend to overreact sometimes and mix up "good female character" with "make her behave as manly as possible". The whole 'damsel in distress' trope has been so overused that people have now gone the other extreme and EVERYBODY needs to be equally kick-ass. But I think the more sensible among us simply wish for more interesting, layered female CHARACTERS.

    Somebody mentioned above that "Bond girls serve 3 general purposes:

    1. To get shagged.
    2. To look good in a bikini.
    3. To die. "

    And that's kind of a problem, because at some point you run the risk of the character simply becoming an object and not an actual person, something I think the Bond series has been dealing with fairly well recently. Theres nothing necesserily wrong with the usual "babe in a bikini" role, this is a fantasy setting after all, but we've had that SO many times now that it definitely doesn't hurt to have more ACTUAL females with characters beyond their looks or plot necessity. And Ilsa Faust from MI is a very good example of a female character thats actually INTERESTING and not simply there for window-dressing.

    Again, not EVERY character needs to be like Ilsa or Vesper, but at this day and age after a hundred variations of "Honey Ryder", they provide something different and much more ineteresting. A healthy balance of both is the key.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    gklein wrote: »
    Society considers it very wrong (usually illegal in most of the U.S.) for a man to hit a woman, even if she has first hit him, but it's considered acceptable (even expected and quite often legally justified) for a man to hit another man after he's first been hit by the other man.

    Do you consider this double-standard to be sexist? It's a serious question.
    gklein wrote: »
    The above question may be answered by anyone brave enough to answer honestly & justify his/her answer in way that doesn't contradict his/her other beliefs on "sexism" & male/female equality.

    You may have a point there as long as the above 'laws' which you state do in fact apply (I'm not sure if they do). One can't have the cake and eat it too is your point I assume.

    Having said that, men in general are stronger than women physically if not necessarily psychically. When these rules / laws are being devised, they are being devised for the general population or majority, and perhaps the weakest, not necessarily the exceptions or the strongest. So in that case, they are fair laws.

    As another example, I've always been a little annoyed about the 'women and children first' in cases of life or death situations.....in terms of who should be allowed to leave / escape first. In a pure equality world, chivalry should arguably be thrown out the door. However, in that case, what are we (men) good for then?
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 154
    It's hard to argue that there are key differences between men and women and that the "ass-kicking superchick" is as much of a stereotype as the bikini clad bimbo.

    I obviously believe that there are indeed key differences between the sexes.

    However, I wasn't stating that the ass-kicking woman is as much a stereotype as the bimbo (she's not, but becoming more so). I was stating that they are both just as unrealistic -- not necessarily an ass-kicking woman in general, but one that could take several male henchmen types.

    As for the rest of your post, I'm in 100% agreement with all that you said.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 154
    bondjames wrote: »

    Having said that, men in general are stronger than women physically if not necessarily psychically. When these rules / laws are being devised, they are being devised for the general population or majority, and perhaps the weakest, not necessarily the exceptions or the strongest. So in that case, they are fair laws.

    Yes, these are my points exactly. Thank you! I think you understand where I'm coming from.

  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,347
    While I enjoy the Mission Impossible movies, (Yet to see Rogue Nation.) They all tend to suffer from plot similarities. IMF agent goes rogue and is the Bad guy or IMF gets shut down because of Bad guy. They have evolved and become their own thing but I don't think they are better than the Bond films. I also disagree with the notion that a Bond movie needs huge elaborate stunts to be good.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,173
    Murdock wrote: »
    They all tend to suffer from plot similarities. IMF agent goes rogue and is the Bad guy or IMF gets shut down because of Bad guy. quote]

    Hmmm, just change IMF to Mi6 and you have the recent Bond films. ;)

  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,347
    talos7 wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    They all tend to suffer from plot similarities. IMF agent goes rogue and is the Bad guy or IMF gets shut down because of Bad guy. quote]

    Hmmm, just change IMF to Mi6 and you have the recent Bond films. ;)

    Touché :P
  • Posts: 7,653
    This woman are weak discussion made me remember my female instructor at the military police, she looked like a lovely petite Blonde and she was our fight instructor for a very good reason. She smacked the presumptions straight out of our thinking especially in the dojo. And if she was felling friendly she took us on a Forrest stroll of twenty kilometers marathon style and made most men throw up.

    I've met quite a few women who are capable of much more violence as the average bloke who says he is capable and the stronger sex. God....most of us would be praying for a speedy dead if we had to give birth to a child. ;)
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 154
    SaintMark wrote: »
    most of us would be praying for a speedy dead if we had to give birth to a child. ;)

    Absolutely. So, you're acknowledging another scientifically proven (through many, many separate studies) physical difference between the sexes -- that women, in general, are better able to handle lasting pain than are men.

    I just hope you're not acknowledging that edge that women have, while simultaneously denying the fighting edge that men, in general, have over women by using the isolated example of your female MP.

    However, if you're using that case of you female MP instructor to illustrate that a man should not assume he can out-fight a woman just because she's a woman, then your point is well taken. You never know. Agreed.
  • MI, Bourne, Kingsmen, etc...as exciting as those films are, they'll never surpass Bond. Bond has proved time and time again that he can be updated to fit the current times, so no, MI has not surpassed Bond. People who write reviews like that are, in my opinion, ignorant.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 389
    I've trained for years in shotokan karate, my view is this, having been smacked in the mush by a psycho bitch from hell with no control, if your stonger, faster & better, ignore the rules of the gallant gentleman, forget she's a lady & knock the cow out. =))
  • Posts: 154
    No argument there -- and I'm pretty darn sure Bond would agree! ;-)
  • gklein wrote: »
    It's hard to argue that there are key differences between men and women and that the "ass-kicking superchick" is as much of a stereotype as the bikini clad bimbo.

    I obviously believe that there are indeed key differences between the sexes.

    However, I wasn't stating that the ass-kicking woman is as much a stereotype as the bimbo (she's not, but becoming more so). I was stating that they are both just as unrealistic -- not necessarily an ass-kicking woman in general, but one that could take several male henchmen types.

    As for the rest of your post, I'm in 100% agreement with all that you said.

    Oh yeah, that's what I meant, I think I misworded my opening statement somewhat. What I meant was that too often "make her a bad-ass" is used a lazy way to add depth. I'm always remined of Jinx, a misguided attempt at "creating an equal to Bond" by simply making her be good at fighting but not actually giving her any personality or letting her be as SMART as Bond and NOT get caught. Her only character trait is "I'm a woman and I know kung-fu". I find it even MORE insulting to have a character like that and then reduce her to a damsel in distress, at least Solitaire and plenty others have the excuse of being weak and untrained, Jinx is just bad at her JOB.
  • Posts: 486
    Oh yeah, that's what I meant, I think I misworded my opening statement somewhat. What I meant was that too often "make her a bad-ass" is used a lazy way to add depth. I'm always remined of Jinx, a misguided attempt at "creating an equal to Bond" by simply making her be good at fighting but not actually giving her any personality or letting her be as SMART as Bond and NOT get caught. Her only character trait is "I'm a woman and I know kung-fu". I find it even MORE insulting to have a character like that and then reduce her to a damsel in distress, at least Solitaire and plenty others have the excuse of being weak and untrained, Jinx is just bad at her JOB.

    I'm inclined to agree. I'd rather see stronger written female roles than kick ass caricatures.

    It's like Kara in TLD who's often passed off as dim as Mary Goodnight but although a little naive she doesn't get kidnapped and have to be rescued by Bond unlike Wai Lin (captured twice on the stealth boat) and Jinx. Plus it's Kara whom urges the Mujahideen to fight the Russians and even leads the attack.

    I'd have thought an actress would prefer a meatier role in a Bond film like Kara or Vesper rather than Jinx but then again all my female friends that are into Bond DO like the action girls and particularly liked Wai Lin and Camille so what do I know!
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 154
    Ah yes, totally agree.

    In fact, this whole debate got started (not just w/you but several others) only because I simply meant to suggest that it would more realistic, to make a woman an equal to Bond/Hunt/etc (and I do believe men & women are equal but different), by focusing on strengthens that, in general, women have over men (I used seduction as an example of something women are, in general, better at -- but it needn't only be that).

    It's perfectly good, and even necessary, to make such a character a good fighter also, but unrealistic to make her able to take several male henchmen (who would be good fighters too) who are probably twice her weight & strength (not that strength is the only factor in a fight).

    In support of your point, I would even say that if she were to outwit the men, using her feminine charms, wisdom, etc, this would be much more realistic (and interesting) than, as you say, lazily adding "depth" by simply making her a bad-ass fighter (who has to rely on that to take down henchman).

    I find it much more believable/realistic that a skilled man can take down several other men (in fact, I've seen exactly this, on youtube posted street fights, while I've never seen a woman take several men in real life).
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    The irony, imho, is that some of the earlier Bond films had much more 'equal' Bond girls than some of the later ones.

    Pussy for example, despite being 'turned', was a strong character.
    So was Fiona
    So was Anya
    So was Goodhead
    So was Melina
    So was Octopussy

    I found the above far more 'modern' than Kara or whiney Bouvier (I think Dalton's tenure had the weakest women roles actually).

    Moore got more than his fair share of liberated women towards the end of his run, perhaps to atone for Goodnight.

    Of Brosnan's I like Natalya who was pretty cool.
    Craig's had a good run too, in CR, QoS & now in SP.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    Brosnan had pretty strong women who were willing to stand up for themselves. Natalya couldn't fight but was mentally strong. Wai Lin is obviously a rival for Bond in the same way Agent XXX was. Electra was another good one, and she actually played Bond like a fool in the film. Christmas and Jinx were weak characters for obvious reasons.
  • Posts: 154
    We had a strong woman all the way back even in FRWL -- Rosa Kleb. This whole "this Bond girl is different" bit that goes on w/every new movie is simply ridiculos. (as though all Bond women have previously always been damsels in distress & nothing more -- which has never been true.)
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 389
    I've met a lot of strong ladies, character & emotion rather than kick ass super heroes, but none who I couldn't take, it's always a leap for me in any film when ladies beat up men twice their size.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    Indeed.
Sign In or Register to comment.