DAF, AVTAK, LTK, DAD and SP - Why the last of each era is viewed upon with mixed feelings.

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  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    Posts: 4,116
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    My brief feelings on why each of these films are disliked.

    DAF - somewhat poor production values in comparison to the earlier films, dated and sluggish in pace.

    MR - Probably Bond at its most shallow and decorative. Other lesser films (like TWINE and DAD) may be flawed but they do TRY and do something different. I quite like MR but I admit that it's attitude is basically "we're just giving audiences what they want to see"

    DAD - Horrible dialogue and horrible production values. Other weak aspects can be overlooked providing the film is competently made. I don't really think DAD can even claim that.

    QoS - It's editing, subpar action and jumbled storyline.

    I don't think had DAD had low production values as a whole. The CGI wasn't up to Hollywood standards for that ice ski stunt but other parts okay.

    QoS editing? Yea agree ..sub par stunts? No, the graffling fight, the boat ram etc ..all quite different ..just marred by filming style.

    Ear muff themes for both DAD and QS.

    DAF and MR have two of the best scores of the series.

  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    DAF and MR have two of the best scores of the series.

    This is absolutely true, very good point!
  • X3MSonicXX3MSonicX https://www.behance.net/gallery/86760163/Fa-Posteres-de-007-No-Time-To-Die
    Posts: 2,635
    I don't know if I ever commented here, but I got to admit that I don't hate these movies such as the other people does. As an example, I really like DAF and MR. Maybe because I've didn't read the books yet.

    All I do really hate is on Octopussy and Die Another Day (even though I've had some "cooldown" on the hate on this last one).

    OP had done it all wrong after Bond got dressed as a clown and screamed like Tarzan. That was the complete facepalm for me. Not even the whistle on the stunt scene in TMWTGG was that bad.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    It would be surprisingly easy to rank those films mentioned.

    1 QOS
    2 DAF
    3 AVTAK
    4 MR
    5 DAD
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,059
    The Moore films are probably the most well known films, and I don't just mean Bond films. Kids who are 10 years old today can identify more elements from the Moore films than any other film made pre 1995. Kids born 40 years after LALD know about Jaws, the ski jump, the golden gun, the underwater Lotus, the fight on top the Golden Gate bridge, etc. Kids without even seeing a single Moore film in it's entirety can get excited when someone tells them about a 2 meter tall giant with metal teeth.

    The Moore films are camp, but not stupid camp. They are camp, OTT and silly in a way that gets the heart of every generation of people pumping at 300 beats per minute in terms of excitement.

    But that's because the items you refer to are intersting to kids. The old Conner's movies don't have such appealing things for kids. So Roger's films are a great introduction to Bond, but aren't great per sé.
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    Posts: 4,116
    mcdonbb wrote: »
    DAF and MR have two of the best scores of the series.

    This is absolutely true, very good point!

    Thanks ...I have recently rediscovered both soundtracks on YouTube. Forgotten how much I enjoyed them.

  • ggl007ggl007 www.archivo007.com Spain, España
    Posts: 2,540
    Talking of QOS, read what Forster says: http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/movies/news/a666575/quantum-of-solace-director-marc-forster-says-he-turned-down-skyfall.html#~pnd3z1LO7s0J4s

    " I definitely would consider doing another one."
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,665
    I'd love to see Marc Forster return. I'm probably in the minority that agrees with that, but still, I'd welcome it.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,059
    I don't know. QoS does rank high in my list, but the shakey cam I don't like, and I'm not quite sure he learned form that. And wasn't World War Z a big flop? Must say I haven't seen it. Still, I don't think he'd muck it up, but I'm just not so certain it would be easy to watch.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,665
    I don't know. QoS does rank high in my list, but the shakey cam I don't like, and I'm not quite sure he learned form that. And wasn't World War Z a big flop? Must say I haven't seen it. Still, I don't think he'd muck it up, but I'm just not so certain it would be easy to watch.

    Work on a sequel has begun, so I suppose the first 'World War Z' did well enough at the box office.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I don't know. QoS does rank high in my list, but the shakey cam I don't like, and I'm not quite sure he learned form that. And wasn't World War Z a big flop? Must say I haven't seen it. Still, I don't think he'd muck it up, but I'm just not so certain it would be easy to watch.

    Work on a sequel has begun, so I suppose the first 'World War Z' did well enough at the box office.

    540 million USD is hardly a flop, even if the movie had a budget of 190 million.
    It sure did make profit, especially with the home video sales it did afterwards.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    And wasn't World War Z a big flop? Must say I haven't seen it. Still, I don't think he'd muck it up, but I'm just not so certain it would be easy to watch.

    The movie was sh*t, but it wasn't a flop, sadly. It's a great showcase of "take a good book, throw everything but the title out, and do something that vaguely resembles the source material".
  • I don't know. QoS does rank high in my list, but the shakey cam I don't like, and I'm not quite sure he learned form that. And wasn't World War Z a big flop? Must say I haven't seen it. Still, I don't think he'd muck it up, but I'm just not so certain it would be easy to watch.

    Not getting the shakeycam reference. The editing is crazed, but the camera isn't having seizures. Schaefer was adamant about not liking that look and instructing Bradley to not go that way. Pretty sure most of the confusion in the action has to do with cutting, not shakeycam.

    The final version of WWZ involved reshooting most if not all of act 3, so it isn't really what Forster wanted, though I guess he got a lot of his points across in the new conclusion anyway. I've interviewed the guy twice, right before WWZ and QoS came out, and surprisingly he seemed in better spirits on WWZ (maybe he was just drained by the QoS post schedule.)
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I enjoyed it. Great scare. I don't understand why it was blasted quite frankly.

    I have it on Blu but have not yet watched it again since that first time in the theatre, which could be telling however.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Because it was so methodical and predictable and dull. I had to leave when Pitt was navigating his way through the germ/disease control complex like it was a video game. Boring. I wasn't scared at all.

    I agree, it wasn't scary. I bought it on Blu-ray (an extended cut) and it was ok to watch for once, I'm re-watching it at some point, but if you want scary you have to watch this:

    30 Days Of Night (bloody (literally) awesome)
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,698
    Birdleson wrote: »
    To be honest, I have not been scared in a theatre since HALLOWEEN in 1979. And on television it was probably watching CARNIVAL OF SOULS in the late '80s, but that was made in 1962.

    I take it back, a few episodes of TWIN PEAKS scared the shit out of me, and that was in 1990.

    In the theatre? Last time I was scared was Aliens (1986) then Predator (1987).
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,060
    I was scared by Sliver.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,554
    Birdleson wrote: »

    I'll give you ALIEN, scary and a great film. Not that sequel. I thought that was total crap.

    Alien is by far the scariest film I ever saw in the theater. I was 11 and snuck in with friends not realizing it would be a horror film.
  • SzonanaSzonana Mexico
    Posts: 1,130
    echo wrote: »
    I was scared by Sliver.


    The one with Sharon Stone and William Baldwing?

    Anyway nothing wrong, i hate horror but i tried once to watch the Hunting with Catherine Zeta Jones, Liam Neeson and Owen Wilson and it scares me so much when a woman is hurt in her eye that I can't watch the rest.


    I love Catherine and liam as actors and tried to watch that movie because of them snd i just can't.


    Now going back to the central topic.

    I think all these Bond flicks get an exaggerated hate. I think fans make too much of a big deal on them.

    Personally i loved Die Another day mainly becasue of Nostalgia since it was my very first Bond movie and visually its spectacular.

    Maybe the plot got weaker in the Ice Castle but i loved that Ice Castle. The Invisible car was such a wow moment for me and the fight with the cars was reslly tense.

    Diamonds are Forever was my first Sean movie and it has some nice moments like the elevatir fight and the joke about killing James Bond.

    My only real problem with that film was Jill as a Bond girl, too out sync with Connery and she wasn't a knock out beauty like we are used to see in the Bond girls.

    Quantum was a great action movie and very entertaining, i guess the main problem with it is that it doesn't feel much like a Bond movie. its the least glamours and we didn't get the beautiful cars.

    At the end its not a movie i would hate to watch again and it made a nice homage to Goldfinger.


    Moonraker i think all the hate was because of the space mission but other than that it was a very fun flick and l liked Lois Chills as a Bond girl i think she is the best looking Bond girl from the Moore era. She reminds me to The Victorias Secret model Alessandra Ambrosio and a bitt to Cindy Crawford as well.


    A view to kill well its one of my least favorites but it has some nice things, i guess the gate for this one comes becasue of Tania Roberts as the Bond girl and the story was alomst like Goldfinegr made again.

    Inlcuding Mayday being a little similar to Pussy Galore










  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,698
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I'll give you ALIEN, scary and a great film. Not that sequel. I thought that was total crap.
    Alien surely scared me, but in that "What? DON'T do THAT! WTF are you THINKING??" kind of way. Aliens scared me in that "OMG this is an unwinnable situation" kind of way, which to ME is way scarier.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,698
    Birdleson wrote: »
    ALIENS was typical action hero bullshit. Horrible dialogue, bad movie.
    Ummm... when was the last time you saw it? 1986? :))
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,698
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Yes.
    Sadly, you lose out on a good time based on prejudice from the past. If I did that too, Tim's Bonds would not now be my present favourites. Just sayin'.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Birdleson wrote: »
    And I've hated every damned Cameron film that I've been dragged to since.

    You don't like T2?
  • Posts: 11,189
    I like Aliens but it's pretty cheesy and certainly not as good as the first one (a genuinely great film in its own right).

    I love T2 but again I do see what you mean in terms of its silly moments.
  • chrisisall wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    To be honest, I have not been scared in a theatre since HALLOWEEN in 1979. And on television it was probably watching CARNIVAL OF SOULS in the late '80s, but that was made in 1962.

    I take it back, a few episodes of TWIN PEAKS scared the shit out of me, and that was in 1990.

    In the theatre? Last time I was scared was Aliens (1986) then Predator (1987).

    LEGEND OF HELL HOUSE when I was 11 or 12, and as an adult, only by FIRE WALK WITH ME, which messed me up so much I had to pull off the road driving home from theater and smoke about 4 cigarettes in a row.

    Oh, and some stuff in EXORCIST III. Really, as the soul-danger stuff always works better on me than oogah-boogah and knives and the like.

  • edited September 2015 Posts: 1,310
    All films you mentioned are in my bottom half, though Diamonds Are Forever has...for some reason...grown on me in the last few years. Here's my reasons for not caring for these films so much:

    Diamonds Are Forever
    - Jill St. John actually isn't all too bad during her first few scenes, but she becomes a ditz and incredibly annoying once they find Plenty in the pool.
    - Sean Connery is better here than in YOLT, but he is not nearly as dangerous or magnetic as he was in DN or FRWL. Didn't seem to keep himself in all too good of shape, either.
    - Pretty awful special effects, even taking into account when the movie was made.
    - The plot of the film, and how it progresses feels like a total spoof.

    Moonraker
    - The Bondola
    - Holly Goodhead is dull. Also...the name Holly Goodhead. ;)
    - Jaws falling in love (screwing up the Jaws character in general)
    - I personally think the ambulance fight is terrible and has the worst product placement in the entire series. (Literally driving past billboards.)
    - Magnificent Seven music...and by this time, all the goodwill that was built up by the film is pretty much lost. It drags on until its conclusion.

    A View to a Kill
    - Beach Boys music renders a dull, but rather inoffensive action scene nearly unwatchable and completely tensionless
    - Roger Moore is just too old, there's no way around it. His interactions with the women just don't work. His fight scenes are laughably terrible.
    - People seem to not like May Day, but eh, I don't mind her.
    - JAAAAMMMEESSS! JAAAAMMMMESSSS!
    - That firetruck chase is pretty stupid.
    - The movie is at least 15-20 minutes too long. You can feel the film dragging across the ground during the endless time Bond and Stacey wander around Zorin's mine.

    Die Another Day
    - Madonna's theme and cameo
    - Halle Berry's performance. My oh my.
    - Some of the worst CGI in a major motion picture.
    - Truly awful dialog packed full of juvenile one-liners and cringeworthy zingers. (Also performed terribly by Halle Berry.)
    - I don't know if I'll ever like that invisible car. Also -- Bond hides behind the invisible car.
    - Once again, a movie that could have been trimmed by about 15 minutes or so. The ending on the airplane is bloated, repetitive and ultimately unsatisfying as cutting back and forth between Jinx and Bond takes tension away from both fights. Oh...RoboCop...almost forgot about that.

    Quantum of Solace
    - Incomprehensible editing and too many pointless action sequences. I know this is an overused criticism of Quantum of Solace, but it rings true. Even if you disregard the Aston chase, the foot-chase is edited to hell (compare it to the foot-chase in CR). The boat chase is poorly conceived, but edited in a way to fool the audience into thinking it is exciting. It isn't. The hotel blowing up is also sloppily conceived. There's some throwaway line saying how the hotel is run by "hydrogen fuel cells" and that it is "highly unstable." Yeah, whatever. Think about it like this: the entire hotel ends up exploding because a jeep collided with a wall in the parking deck.
    - Another Way to Die is an awful song. Doesn't really affect the actual film, but yikes.
    - Bond does some pretty stupid things in this film. For example, during the Opera scene, Bond outsmarts Guy Haines's bodyguard and has him at gunpoint. He then proceeds to bring the bodyguard to the edge of a tall building to intimidate him. You know, where Bond could also be grabbed and dragged down (!!!). I realized they just wanted to do a TSWLM reference but the fall itself is awkward and reminds you how much better the scene in TSWLM was.
    - Inexcusable poor CGI. (Free-falling scene didn't look much better than some of the stuff in DAD and the scene it referenced in Moonraker is a more convincing sequence.)
    - M scolding Bond for Fields's death when it really is M's fault. M herself says that Fields "worked in an office." If that was the case, why did M send Fields to arrest Bond in the first place? Did M really think that a 110 pound woman was going to be able to drag James Bond back to London? If M really wanted Bond apprehended she could have sent 10 highly trained agents to that airport instead of some desk worker. [Also, Bond escaping from the elevator in five seconds. Oh, the tension.]
    - General Medrano is so woefully underdeveloped that Camille's revenge angle isn't even half realized. QOS seems to take a page from the DAD book in terms of the final fight - the film cuts between Bond vs. Greene and Camille vs. Medrano. The only issue is that Medrano literally hasn't been in the film since the boat chase nearly an hour earlier. This totally incompetent storytelling ultimately makes Camille's fight pointless and tacked on for the sake of keeping her character in the film.
    - The water thing is unconvincing. We're told many times that the country is facing a drought, but Bond, Mathis and eventually Fields drive down what looks to be a perfectly functional city - no drought to be seen. They stay in nice hotels, go to lavish parties where everything seems just fine. Then we're shown one scene in the desert where a little village runs out of water, and all of a sudden it is a big deal. Sure.

    ---

    I'm getting upset writing about Quantum of Solace so I'm going to leave it at that. I have some deep seeded dislike for that film as you can tell. I don't mean to troll but while a lot of the bad Bond films have surface issues (bad acting, bad dialog, overly silly scenes etc), Quantum of Solace has problems that stem deep within its script and structure and that really frustrates me.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020

    AVATAR MADE SOME BILLIONS IT HAS WON OSCARS IT MUST BE THE BEST MOVIE EVER THE AUDIENCE SAYS SO IT IS GENERAL CONSENSUS IT HAS 7.9 ON IMDB AND HAS 83% ON ROTTEN TOMATOES
    end sarcasm

    and now the shocking truth:
    Skyfall 7.8 on IMDB Oscar wins 2
    Avatar 7.9 on IMDB Oscar wins 3
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    edited October 2015 Posts: 9,020
    I'm slightly adjusting this thread to shift the topic to the last of each actor's Bond movies.

    Obviously the last movie of each actor failed the general public in the long run. Of course some of them were highly successful at the time, this is not about box office.

    DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER
    It's hardly a secret or surprise that this movie is generally seen as one of the less good of the Bond movies. It just seemed wrong for many reasons, probably mainly because it felt like Connery was really just interested in the deal he got from EON and that can be seen onscreen I think. As @Birdleson rightly reminded me, DAF was of course received very well back at the time.

    A VIEW TO A KILL
    Simply put, Moore was way too old. Not that the age number matters but he looked old in that movie. Just look at this picture.
    full.jpg
    Except for Q the other 4 are within 6 years of the same age. Moore was 58.
    I think this is the main reason really why AVTAK gets near to the bottom of most lists. It just didn't work.

    LICENCE TO KILL
    This is the one movie that can be argued doesn't deserve to be viewed in general to be a failure. But fact is, it failed the public. Not only is this the least successful Bond movie but it gets little love outside the hard-core fan circle (if I may use that term).
    In my opinion it was ahead of its time and should have been made with a bigger budget or a different director.

    DIE ANOTHER DAY
    Definitely loved by the general public in 2002, this is the one Bond movie that aged the fastest and had the biggest fall in the general public's opinion. A good bet for finishing last in any list.

    So, Connery, Moore, Dalton and Brosnan finished their tenure with what is clearly considered to be the weakest of their Bond movies. Or at least that is the general consensus.

    What about Daniel Craig's run. Here are my thoughts:
    I can't imagine SPECTRE to have the same fate as one of the above mentioned movies.
    With "only" 3 movies so far, Craig had his clunker in his tenure already with QUANTUM OF SOLACE which is generally seen as one of the least good Bond movies.

    So if SPECTRE indeed will be a Top 10 or even Top 5 Bond movie, let alone be the best of them all, will it be possible for BOND 25 not ending up failing the general public, mainly because the public will have too high expectations and Craig simply may look too old as well. And nobody can prevent the possibility of another QOS happening, otherwise QOS never would have happened the way it has. You only know after the release if something has worked or not.

    Maybe it simply is the fate of each actor not to be able to finish his tenure with a high point. Does it matter? Not in the long run. Would I personally want to be spared of DAF, AVTAK, LTK and DAD. Certainly not, they belong to the franchise as the other movies and all of those have their fans.

    In the short run though, it does matter in my opinion. If SPECTRE delivers then why not end the current era on a high, or the high point.
    But I admit being torn about it. If Spectre delivers then I would long for more of the same.
    What are your thoughts?
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    edited October 2015 Posts: 9,020
    @Birdleson

    Ok, I corrected my OP because you have a point.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    edited October 2015 Posts: 9,020
    Interesting chart.
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