CharlieHebdo

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  • Posts: 4,602
    I think they did it around 3am when the buildings was not staffed, IMHO, that is out of keeping with the actions we have seen so far: I would think its more likely that is someone with a gripe about the council but still sane enough to consider the risks to life
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Yep ! Police have confirmed "no terrorist" act, just a local
    Disgruntled rate payer.
  • Posts: 14,840
    @bondjames-I dismiss the economic angle in this instance because CH did not represent the Great Capital and because the murderers shouted their reason to murder them. It was to punish what they thought was an act of blasphemy.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    @bondjames-I dismiss the economic angle in this instance because CH did not represent the Great Capital and because the murderers shouted their reason to murder them. It was to punish what they thought was an act of blasphemy.

    Yes, that's true and it explains CH, but the jewish murders had nothing to do with blasphemy. To blame that on Islam is not correct either because muslims do not hate jews. On the contrary. They are both Abrahamistic faiths. It has more to do with Israel and Israeli policy towards Palestinians & rhetoric against Iran, as well as other issues. These killer's hate is misguided, but it is not a religious hate towards the jews. It is a cultural link that the killers feel towards people of similar culture and faith in the middle east that caused them to kill the jewish shoppers IMO. That is why I say that culture is important as a cause for this extermism. People relate to cultural affinity, as well as religious affinity. As an example, a middle eastern christian may also feel dislike (or hate even) towards Israel due to its Gaza policy due to a cultural link.
  • Posts: 7,653
    Ludovico wrote: »
    @bondjames-I dismiss the economic angle in this instance because CH did not represent the Great Capital and because the murderers shouted their reason to murder them. It was to punish what they thought was an act of blasphemy.

    Look on a larger scale, France was despised by the US when they did not want to participate in the US wars Iraq 2 & Afghanistan [remember the freedom fries? ] They took a far more sensible stance against the so-called war on terrorism, which so far cost so much money that we could have solved the crisis with it twice easily. The attack on France is a sheer provocation in order to draw France out and a show for the rest of the world: look what we can do strike at you when we want.

    The attack on France in France was possible because of the poor economic chances for young Muslims, even in France. It has everything to do with economics far more than religion. All of the Muslims I work with felt in no way insulted by the cover of CH they kinda liked it and understood the message. And none of the them had heard of CH before last week. For them it was each to his/her own.
  • Posts: 14,840
    Oh come on! Not all Muslims hate Jews, but there is long history of dislikes, distrust and hatred between the two faiths. When it comes to the islamists at least, they often are antisemites and it goes way beyond anti Israel statements. Unless the terrorists were very subtle intellectual able to make a distinction between a country and a faith. Which was not their case.
  • Posts: 4,602
    so now the Pope has waded into the argument, seeming to say that its OK to use physical violence to those that cause offense by their words and they should expect that violence. What a fantastic example to set.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    So much for turning the other cheek ! :(
  • Posts: 5,821
    SaintMark, France was part of the coalition in Afghanistan. We have the dead to show for it.

    [url="http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pertes_militaires_françaises_en_Afghanistan"]fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pertes_militaires_françaises_en_Afghanistan[/url]
  • Posts: 4,602
    its a horrible example to use, he and his team have had a decent amount of time to come up with something that would be inspiring and bring people together "If you insult my mum, I will punch you on the nose" - what message does that send to all Muslims around the World, does he realise the implications of what he has said?
  • edited January 2015 Posts: 2,015
    bondjames wrote: »
    @Suivez_ce_parachute & @Ludivico, why do you keep focusing on denigrating the economic argument only, in order to substantiate and argue for the religious one (i.e. to suggest it's all religion's, or in this case, Islam's fault) .

    Well I keep focusing on the economic argument only, because I think it's just plain wrong. Cultural, societal, religious, yes probably, and I don't even know actually, it's so irrationnal, but, economic ? IMO, a big No.

    Unless you mean that radical religious people are very dangerous only when they are very wealthy, but actually I think you mean terrorism exists mostly because of poverty. Which is so surreal when you actually bother to look at the pedigree of those who turn terrorists in our societies.

    In other terms, do you predict a rise of terrorism from Romany people for instance ? They are really the lowest of the lowest part of the population in Europe as far as human rights are concerned. They're second-rate citizens for every country they live in I think. If you think terrorism is an answer to oppression, please explain me why there are no Romany people who turn terrorists. Yes, they probably do more burglaries than those who are born with a silver spoon in their mouth.. but terrorism ? It's a different matter.

    Even the last big act of left-wing terrorism in France (no victims, but trains were stopped because the lines were broken), was organized by a spoiled brat kid of a rich father :)
    bondjames wrote: »
    @Suivez_ce_parachute, no I don't think economics explains antisemitism.

    Ok, but if you think so, then how can economics explain terrorist acts againt Jews by an antisemitic guy, like last week in Paris ?!
    SaintMark wrote: »
    The attack on France in France was possible because of the poor economic chances for young Muslims, even in France. It has everything to do with economics far more than religion.

    I don't think France has millions of terrorists on its ground, sorry. French all share the same economic context, but only some separatists and some very religious people are a problem it seems, and they don't come from the ranks of those who suffer a lot from the crisis. Hint, hint.

  • Posts: 4,602
    The argument concerning economics and poverty is a little undermined IMHO when you see the Pope (not short of a few quid) join with those who justify violence as a reaction to offense
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    If this is the sort of tripe coming from the churches, Thank God
    I'm an atheist. ;)
  • Posts: 7,500
    That was very surprising, very sad, and very inauspicious...
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    A lyric from the great Flight of the Concords that works as an ample metaphor for the 21st century. 'Too many dicks on the dancefloor'.
  • Charlie-Hebdo-aux-chiottes-toutes-les-religions-Credit-Mona-Eberhardt-Creative-Commons.jpg

    I don't need to translate I think ;)
  • Posts: 14,840
    DrGorner wrote: »
    So much for turning the other cheek ! :(

    Jesus apparently meant the other cheek of the person you'd be hitting.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Must have, "they should expect a punch !" Words of peace .....NOT !
    He's only gone and justified the attack ! ~X(
  • Posts: 11,425
    What did Francis actually say?

    Regarding Jews and Muslims, they actually lived alongside each other relatively peacefully. Certainly historically the Jews were treated much better in Muslim countries than in Christian ones. The creation of Israel changed all that. The tragic thing is that while I fully understand the urgent need European Jews felt for a Jewish homeland after WW2, it has been innocent Palestinian Arabs who have paid the price - Muslim and Christian.

    I do think the plight of the Palestinians is used as an excuse sometimes though by Muslims for all sorts of wrong headed ideas and actions. And unfortunately justified criticism of Israel is all to easily conflated with Anti-Semitism. I don't think the idiot who attacked the supermarket said it was to do with Israel, he said it was because they were Jewish.
  • Posts: 4,602
    “If my good friend Dr Gasparri says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch. It’s normal. It’s normal. You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others.”
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    So much for free speech ! :(
  • edited January 2015 Posts: 238
    Goodness me all this pontification (hey I can use big words too). Can I make fun of others (for whatever reason)? Yes. Do I? Sometimes. Thats freedom of speech.

    All this talk of theology, religion and race, you are all barking up the wrong tree. Hear me out.

    In this world there are violent psychos who commit atrocities. A few examples:

    Derek Bird, UK, shot and killed 12. Motive, uncertain but not religious.
    Jim Jones, encouraged the suicide of over 900. Motive, quasi religious/political.
    Anders Breivek, Norway, murder of 77. Motive, political.
    Aurora shootings, USA, as yet no conviction, so we shall wait and see.
    And there are many, many more examples.

    The point is, the are violent religious nuts out there, there are violent nuts who are not religious. My point? All this pseudo intellectualism serves no purpose. Just think about it.
  • edited January 2015 Posts: 4,602
    Horrible to play the numbers game but I will match you with 9/11 and raise you the approx 2000 killed in Nigeria last week. It may be hard to work out but until we bite the bullet and realise that religion IS playing a key element, we will never make any progress in dealing with the root causes.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    If Religion didn't play a part in the killing, it's odd that the killers
    Would shout, that the Prophet had been avenged after their
    Disgusting deed ?
  • Posts: 4,602
    yes, bit of a give away, that one.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I was just " thinking about it "
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Remember that certain religions are political in their nature, and that Islam is currently the most barbaric because it stems from a barbaric civilization.
  • Posts: 11,425
    yes, always struggled with how Islam is the religion of peace when its well known that Mohammad was a political and military leader. he was pretty hardcore as a military campaigner.

    but as I said before, religion is about tradition and culture as much as the text itself

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691
    Religions are like speed limits- most useful for the masses whom otherwise would not know their limitations through introspective common sense and observation.
    Religions are like hammers- they can help in building homes or you can clobber someone over the head with them.
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