William Boyd calls Fleming an "unreflecting racist".....Groannnn.

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Comments

  • Posts: 4,622

    So we shouldn't take the likes of @harkaway seriously because they're new and don't have as many posts as the rest of us?
    It's about credentials and motives. The term political troll comes to mind.
    The pithy retorts belched up in response to the educated and well crafted missives from the learned Dr. Khan speak volumes.

    I would so pay to witness the good Fleming entertained in person by such high-minded bleatings. Might have provided fodder for his next book. Personally I think Bond, Tiger, Dikko, and not to forget Fleming's good friend Coward, might all collapse from excessive, gut-splitting laughter. Fleming could probably hold it together. But still best to have medics on standby.

  • Posts: 7,653
    timmer wrote:
    So we shouldn't take the likes of @harkaway seriously because they're new and don't have as many posts as the rest of us?
    It's about credentials and motives. The term political troll comes to mind.
    The pithy retorts belched up in response to the educated and well crafted missives from the learned Dr. Khan speak volumes.

    I would so pay to witness the good Fleming entertained in person by such high-minded bleatings. Might have provided fodder for his next book. Personally I think Bond, Tiger, Dikko, and not to forget Fleming's good friend Coward, might all collapse from excessive, gut-splitting laughter. Fleming could probably hold it together. But still best to have medics on standby.

    @harkaway is no political troll, he has like anybody the right to give his opinion on the subject matter in this thread, if you disagree with him that is fine.

    He did call out PK on his own merits and comments on other fora, and they have been interesting to put it kindly and mildly. And PK did react a bit over the top calling him a fascist and as anybody knows those laddies are rather rightwing so calling him next a leftie does wonder PK's labeling.

    PK does always have a tendency to over react when it comes to the European lifestyle and the incredible dangers of Islam and how the welfare states should preferbly go down in flames as he does not belive they should excist. PK has written & published a book on the subject of eductation in which he states that the liberal aspect of education should be banned as it serves no purpose at all. People should not be allowed to develop their own ideas and identities as long as they do not fit into the more conservative ideas he believes in.

    While I consider PK an expert on Ian Fleming and alway read his vision and ideas with pleasure I generally ignore his views on race, women and gays (the gaymaffia, really??)

    Do not call somebody a troll because you disagree, some of @harkaway his reasonings do make sense. But in debate one should be respectfull and still be able to disagree.

  • Oh, I actually did not want to troll here, I honestly think it does make a difference if a discussion about racism is in no small part led by a racist, the genuine article so to speak. In fact PK missed out an opportunity to make his own argument more convincing by stating right at the start that he as a real racist himself is sure that Fleming couldn't hold a candle to him.

    This forum is for the debate of James Bond, the hero of many young kids and no doubt a big number of young and easily impressed people visit it chiefly to have fun and a good time. Seeing here such enormous racist BS peddled by a known propagandist of the extreme variety will surely have an impact on these readers. They deserve to get a perspective on these rantings and the people behind them.
  • edited November 2013 Posts: 2,483
    SaintMark wrote:
    timmer wrote:
    So we shouldn't take the likes of @harkaway seriously because they're new and don't have as many posts as the rest of us?
    It's about credentials and motives. The term political troll comes to mind.
    The pithy retorts belched up in response to the educated and well crafted missives from the learned Dr. Khan speak volumes.

    I would so pay to witness the good Fleming entertained in person by such high-minded bleatings. Might have provided fodder for his next book. Personally I think Bond, Tiger, Dikko, and not to forget Fleming's good friend Coward, might all collapse from excessive, gut-splitting laughter. Fleming could probably hold it together. But still best to have medics on standby.

    @harkaway is no political troll, he has like anybody the right to give his opinion on the subject matter in this thread, if you disagree with him that is fine.

    He did call out PK on his own merits and comments on other fora, and they have been interesting to put it kindly and mildly. And PK did react a bit over the top calling him a fascist and as anybody knows those laddies are rather rightwing so calling him next a leftie does wonder PK's labeling.

    PK does always have a tendency to over react when it comes to the European lifestyle and the incredible dangers of Islam and how the welfare states should preferbly go down in flames as he does not belive they should excist. PK has written & published a book on the subject of eductation in which he states that the liberal aspect of education should be banned as it serves no purpose at all. People should not be allowed to develop their own ideas and identities as long as they do not fit into the more conservative ideas he believes in.
    While I consider PK an expert on Ian Fleming and alway read his vision and ideas with pleasure I generally ignore his views on race, women and gays (the gaymaffia, really??)

    Do not call somebody a troll because you disagree, some of @harkaway his reasonings do make sense. But in debate one should be respectfull and still be able to disagree.

    Presumably, you have read my book. Indubitably, you have failed to understand it.

  • harkaway wrote:
    Oh, I actually did not want to troll here, I honestly think it does make a difference if a discussion about racism is in no small part led by a racist, the genuine article so to speak. In fact PK missed out an opportunity to make his own argument more convincing by stating right at the start that he as a real racist himself is sure that Fleming couldn't hold a candle to him.

    This forum is for the debate of James Bond, the hero of many young kids and no doubt a big number of young and easily impressed people visit it chiefly to have fun and a good time. Seeing here such enormous racist BS peddled by a known propagandist of the extreme variety will surely have an impact on these readers. They deserve to get a perspective on these rantings and the people behind them.

    One can only hope. **said in my most malevolent Marilyn Manson voice**

  • edited November 2013 Posts: 4,622
    SaintMark wrote:
    @harkaway is no political troll, he has like anybody the right to give his opinion on the subject matter in this thread, if you disagree with him that is fine.

    He did call out PK on his own merits and comments on other fora, and they have been interesting to put it kindly and mildly. And PK did react a bit over the top calling him a fascist and as anybody knows those laddies are rather rightwing so calling him next a leftie does wonder PK's labeling.

    PK does always have a tendency to over react when it comes to the European lifestyle and the incredible dangers of Islam and how the welfare states should preferbly go down in flames as he does not belive they should excist. PK has written & published a book on the subject of eductation in which he states that the liberal aspect of education should be banned as it serves no purpose at all. People should not be allowed to develop their own ideas and identities as long as they do not fit into the more conservative ideas he believes in.

    While I consider PK an expert on Ian Fleming and alway read his vision and ideas with pleasure I generally ignore his views on race, women and gays (the gaymaffia, really??)

    Do not call somebody a troll because you disagree, some of @harkaway his reasonings do make sense. But in debate one should be respectfull and still be able to disagree.

    Saint Mark, I love you like a brother but.........Perilagu Khan is one of the smartest persons you will ever meet on this board or anywhere. He doesn't have a racist bone in his body. He has been a fine upstanding member of these boards for many years. Longer than either you or I. He is a true Bondphile.
    @unmentionable (I don't even want to deign to acknowledge the individual in question) who is now up to 22 posts, virtually all of them involving the calling of other members racists, is the most obvious of trolls. He has no Bond credentials whatsoever. He's a political animal of a very obvious odious persuasion. PK as you are well aware does not need a defence from either you or I. His credentials are impeccable, not only in terms of Bond but also with regards to civil discourse, over many years on these boards. He has earned the right to post provocative opinions. I am also happy to suffer ;) your opinions as well, as you have also earned the right. Your Bond credentials are also impeccable. I've checked
    You are both credentialed with the International Board for Bond and Fleming Commentary (IBBFC)
    As for the @unmentionable in question, to agree or disagree is moot. He has no credentials. His opinions on Fleming don't matter. I am sure he has never read a book. Understandably I have no interest in his opinion, yeh or neh.

    Back to the matter at hand. Boyd spouts nonsense iMHO of course. (yes I can attempt humility from time to time)
    Fleming also is not a racist in his era or any era, again IMHO of course. Racism is a serious accusation. It should be tossed around like a manhole cover, not a frisbee. Sorry Fleming doesn't fit the mold. But there are plenty of actual racists about in the world, and they are dangerous and mean-spirited people. Actually encountering them might help provide some perspective to those who like to toss frisbees.
    Presumably, you have read my book. Indubitably, you have failed to understand it.
    What a schock! ~O)
    "indubitably" channeling Diana Rigg are we? Very good.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Fleming was a racist. Does it matter concerning my enjoyment of his novels? No.
    Was it the worst form of racism we have seen during our lifetime of reading books? No.
    He was no worse than Walt Disney or my grandmother, may they both rest in peace.
    Fleming probably saw Britain as the highlight of civilization in his lifetime, and why not?
    Racism is just stupid, but the term has been hijacked to the extent it has lost its meaning.
  • And who ever said racists can't spell ;)
  • edited November 2013 Posts: 12,837
    @timmer, @harkaway is not being a troll. How do you know he's never read a book? What are these Bond "credentials" you're on about? You're just being stupid now.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but this to me is what seems to have happened: @harkaway has given a fair argument (which you have every right to disagree with) but because it's painted your mate (who's apparently admitted he's a racist) in a bad light, @harkaway has no Bond credentials (aka he's new), and he hasn't earned the right to give his opinion (because he's new). Therefore he's a troll who's name shouldn't be mentioned.

    Think I might leave this thread for the time being. It's just pissing me off more than anything now.
  • edited November 2013 Posts: 31
    timmer wrote:
    ..Perilagu Khan is one of the smartest persons you will ever meet on this board or anywhere. Smarmapplepolishcrawlsmarmapplepolishcrawlsmarmapplepolishcrawl


    Hectic exchange of pms done? Fawning tributes duly paid?

    By your reasoning you'd also defend Goebbels himself if he only happened to be reading Bond. Not that I'm surprised, as befits the lady. But your defense comes too late. As you both know that guy is not just a racist, he's even proud of it. While you as his apologist bring up nothing more substantial than your licking his boots. In that light I think the past few pages read indeed a little different. Especially so as you were the starter of this thread and provided your buddy with a stage for his twisted propaganda. Don't complain, you just get what you sowed yourself.

    Not that any of this is a revelation for you, you must remember the place well enough. Strange how fast your opinion is subject to change though, you all went on there at some length also about this forum. By far not as lyrical as you do now. Did you get a little electroshock treatment or do you just cant about these boards and its fine upstanding members now?
  • edited November 2013 Posts: 4,622
    @timmer, @harkaway is not being a troll. How do you know he's never read a book? What are these Bond "credentials" you're on about? You're just being stupid now.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but this to me is what seems to have happened: @harkaway has given a fair argument (which you have every right to disagree with) but because it's painted your mate (who's apparently admitted he's a racist) in a bad light, @harkaway has no Bond credentials (aka he's new), and he hasn't earned the right to give his opinion (because he's new). Therefore he's a troll who's name shouldn't be mentioned.

    Think I might leave this thread for the time being. It's just pissing me off more than anything now.
    maybe you should take a break, because I don't think you see what is happeing. @unmentionalbe is engaged in character assassination, although it's so far off base as to be laughable. (witness the utterly incomprhensible/deranged post above) khan actually has not admitted to what you say he did. @unmentionable made that pithy assertion. A political troll has joined our ranks. Re credentials, there is nada to suggest he has any first hand experience of Fleming.

  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,328
    Is this thread even necessary anymore? It's just turning into a Cesspool into anger and troll accusing. I think it should be closed.
  • edited November 2013 Posts: 4,622
    Murdock wrote:
    Is this thread even necessary anymore? It's just turning into a Cesspool into anger and troll accusing. I think it should be closed.
    Not a bad idea, at which point @unmentionable will have nothing further to "contribute" Such a shame.

  • That would be far too early, we didn't have time to speak about how your view of these boards changed so drastically. What did you call this place? Something with k..., sorry can't remember right now. I'll have to look that up. Must be in the same thread where you guys exchanged your opinion about the mods here.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,368
    I haven't even bothered posting here. I knew as soon as it started, it would turn into something like this. Can't have civil, reasonable conversations anymore without it turning into name-bashing and grudge-holding.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    Murdock wrote:
    Is this thread even necessary anymore? It's just turning into a Cesspool into anger and troll accusing. I think it should be closed.
    I agree with my esteemed colleague here.
    L-)
  • I think a night out with Dikko would be tremendous fun. But then of course I'm the kind of Stone Age Neanderthal who would class calling someone a 'pommy poofter' as a bit of banter rather than homophobic abuse that should see poor Dikko castigated on Twitter and sacked from his job.

    Same here, but I'd draw the line at the Dikko's Aborigine rant - as Bond does. That's what I was talking about.
  • @harkaway Which forum is this on?

    Think he's referring to Bond & Beyond.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    As a militant moderate, I demand a progressive attitude with a conservative oversight.
  • One the same, and at your service dear chap. I am 100 percent guilty of recognizing patterns in sundry demographics, noting the obvious, namely that those differences produce inequality, and that a goodly portion of this inequality is genetic. All of the above is well documented in the sciences, both physical and social. And indeed, the ability to notice these things and the willingness to speak of them was fairly common as little as 30 years ago. Alas, fascists such as yourself have successfully embargoed and criminalized a great many truths. But the truth can be suppressed by fascistic tactics for only so long. Eventually awareness dawns and the Nazis and the Bolsheviks are destroyed. It will happen to the waffen PC as well. A shame we have to go down this bloody road again, but there it is.

    Nothing like a Charles Manson-esque prophecy to start off the day. You're also hinting to your firmly held suspicions that blacks are on average, less intelligent than whites and East Asians (largely due to genetic factors) - right?

    Just want to be clear.
  • edited November 2013 Posts: 4,622
    Nothing like a Charles Manson-esque prophecy to start off the day. You're also hinting to your firmly held suspicions that blacks are on average, less intelligent than whites and East Asians (largely due to genetic factors) - right?

    Just want to be clear.
    Have you ever been sued for libel. If not its probably only a matter of time. "Firmly held suspicion." Very good. Many of us on this board have known Khan for a long time, and he's never said any such thing, here or elsewhere.
    You are outside the parameters of "fair comment" or "truth" which are the common defences against charges of libel.
    Accusations of "hinting" to unestablished "firmly held suspicions." The level of discourse has reached a new low.
    Truth is the learned Dr. Khan is probably just a little too smart, for you. Nothing personal. Just seems to be the case.
  • edited November 2013 Posts: 157
    timmer wrote:
    Many of us on this board have known Khan for a long time, and he's never said any such thing, here or elsewhere.

    Here? No. Elsewhere? Yes.
    timmer wrote:
    Truth is the learned Dr. Khan is probably just a little too smart, for you. Nothing personal. Just seems to be the case.

    Found any polyps up there? Khan doesn't need your hosannas. His intellect is not what's up for debate.
  • Posts: 4,622
    His intellect is not what's up for debate.
    Actually it is, because you don't seem to have the candlepower to mount a coherent response. David versus Goliath exchanges aren't terribly interesting.

  • edited November 2013 Posts: 157
    timmer wrote:
    His intellect is not what's up for debate.
    Actually it is, because you don't seem to have the candlepower to mount a coherent response. David versus Goliath exchanges aren't terribly interesting.

    I posses enough humility to admit that I'm nowhere near as intelligent or well-educated as Khan. I was simply asking for him to enlighten me on his beliefs regarding race. I'm not entirely sure where he stands.

    Maybe what I posted above was straw man nonsense, maybe not. I'd just like a definitive answer.
  • Posts: 7,653
    I am sorry Timmer Bond and Beyond had a thread on Rascism in America, and that one did turn a bit nasty sometimes and the by revered Dr PK was a part of it. Some quotes I found.

    PK 16th of april 2012
    Whites are 36 times more likely to be the victims of violent crime committed by blacks than the opposite. Quite the teenage phase. And, I daresay, just a teensy bit of a reason to be suspicious of black males under the age of 40.
    Not only does "society not educate" on the topic, it actively suppresses the reality of black criminality. That indeed is a problem.
    I suspect several factors are to blame. Biology is one of them.


    PK quote april 17th 2012
    Biological factors determine what various races and ethnicities look like; they determine how we perform in sports (fast-twitch muscles help blacks dominate sprinting events); they render Amerindians susceptible to alcoholism and blacks to sickle cell anemia; and they produce pronounced differences in intelligence. Given the above it only stands to reason that biology will, to one extent or another, determine psychology and hormonal physiology.

    To a large extent, genuine racism (at least on the part of whites) that harms people, is a relic of the past. What we have now is anti-racism (the position that seeks to obscure the truth about race) and racial truth-telling (now known as racism). And this anti-racism is very much like Socialist Realism in that it is an elite project that seeks to replace unpleasant truths with palatable lies. Given that anti-racism and its cousin multiculturalism are the West's master narratives, our intellectual climate now bears an uncomfortable resemblance to that of the USSR. It is now up to dissident intellectuals to instigate a revolution that will subvert and annihilate the entire rotten edifice of our elite institutions. Either that, or we become increasingly enserfed to lies and those who tell them.

  • edited November 2013 Posts: 157
    Yep, that's the sort of the thing I was referring to. Biological determinism.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    I was simply asking for him to enlighten me on his beliefs regarding race. I'm not entirely sure where he stands.

    Always better to assume the best in people rather than to take a comment or two and press someone on it. I myself have made comments that would make me seem like a Leftwingloony & a Rightwingnut at different times.
    That said, PK has irritated me at times, but this site is not about fighting, it's about BOND. If we can't be civil and drop some of our entrenched political beliefs in the discussion of BOND movies/books or whatnot, then we become a bunch of cage fighters.
    I almost NEVER flag stuff. But now's the time I'm afraid.
  • timmer wrote:
    His credentials are impeccable, not only in terms of Bond but also with regards to civil discourse, over many years on these boards.
    Don't forget many simply don't bother to react to his posts. Don't consider the fact he posts without any reaction as a sign he's well respected...


  • The truth is that calling out PK on his racism has been overdue. He likes to use a smokescreen for his true colors, he's just not always been careful enough. If he could he'd bury a lot of his preachings now, especially the parts where he felt he was amongst friends. Seeing this little fuehrer-follower act spreading its ideology on a site dedicated to discuss mainstream entertainment, with a large number of minors amongst the readership, is something these figures should not get away with. Parents certainly don't expect their kids to pick up 'acceptable' racism when they let their children visit mi6 boards.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,882
    Let's not bring personal insults into this thread. It's created a good deal of lively debate and so I would hate to have to have to bring out the ol' padlock and key.
This discussion has been closed.