William Boyd calls Fleming an "unreflecting racist".....Groannnn.

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  • 007InVT007InVT Classified
    Posts: 893
    NicNac wrote:
    Fleming was writing about a man (Bond) who was racist.

    Please elaborate.

    Or are you pinning your entire argument on the Koreans are apes line but ignoring Bond's genuine warmth and friendship towards Quarrel and Tiger and his reflections (albeit occasionally with the odd racist word that that is of the era) as a curious traveller who is interested in experiencing the local culture of Harlem, the West Indies, Japan or the Seychelles?

    We all know Fleming's Bond was a man of contradictions, but you can't deny he expressed certain racist attitudes of the time - though these softened in the later novels. If you want a real 'foaming at the mouth bigot', look to Fleming's Dikko Henderson.

    Quite.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited November 2013 Posts: 9,117
    007InVT wrote:
    NicNac wrote:
    Fleming was writing about a man (Bond) who was racist.

    Please elaborate.

    Or are you pinning your entire argument on the Koreans are apes line but ignoring Bond's genuine warmth and friendship towards Quarrel and Tiger and his reflections (albeit occasionally with the odd racist word that that is of the era) as a curious traveller who is interested in experiencing the local culture of Harlem, the West Indies, Japan or the Seychelles?

    We all know Fleming's Bond was a man of contradictions, but you can't deny he expressed certain racist attitudes of the time - though these softened in the later novels. If you want a real 'foaming at the mouth bigot', look to Fleming's Dikko Henderson.

    Quite.

    Fleming did not express 'racist attitudes of the time', he expressed the average attitude of society of the time. It is only by our modern day standards it is now seen to be racist. Don't think that Fleming was somebody propagating outrageous views on a shocked society. The public (including probably William Boyd's relatives) are as guilty as Ian as being racist so I don't see why Fleming is being singled out for using the language of his time.

    I think a night out with Dikko would be tremendous fun. But then of course I'm the kind of Stone Age Neanderthal who would class calling someone a 'pommy poofter' as a bit of banter rather than homophobic abuse that should see poor Dikko castigated on Twitter and sacked from his job.
  • TrishTrish Banned
    Posts: 20
    WizardofIce things that might seem like a joke to you can escalate quickly in society to prosecution of LGBT community. Just steer clear of that kind of junk.

  • Fleming did not express 'racist attitudes of the time', he expressed the average attitude of society of the time. It is only by our modern day standards it is now seen to be racist.

    That's not true, the definition of racism wasn't different in Fleming's time. Things like the 'animal stench' of Koreans was every bit as racist then as it is now. Only in Fleming's time you had more people agreeing with such. But racism doesn't change into mainstream with the number of its followers, it becomes mainstream racism. That is what some pursue with apologizing Fleming's attitude, a handy device to justify their own leanings.

    Don't think that Fleming was somebody propagating outrageous views on a shocked society. The public (including probably William Boyd's relatives) are as guilty as Ian as being racist so I don't see why Fleming is being singled out for using the language of his time.

    But Fleming is not singled out, in everything I've read he's obviously seen as a product of his time, not a natural benchmark of acceptable 'provoking' views on the 'safe' side of racism as some try to paint him here. Somebody above mentioned other popular thriller writers of the time whose work doesn't resort to the kind slur Fleming employed. So his mild racism obviously wasn't obligatory, neither then nor today. It was his choice to use it, most likely because he was fairly sure he wouldn't offend with it. Fleming was very eager to please and would not have included views that threatened the success of his books.


    I think a night out with Dikko would be tremendous fun. But then of course I'm the kind of Stone Age Neanderthal who would class calling someone a 'pommy poofter' as a bit of banter rather than homophobic abuse that should see poor Dikko castigated on Twitter and sacked from his job.

    Could be that 'poor' Dikko isn't so worthy of your sympathy. If such a figure walks around today he's aware of the nature of his banter and should be prepared for the reaction to it. Sadly today even racists want to be 'understood' and cuddled, not my cup of tea.
    Gotta hit the sack.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    timmer wrote:
    RC7 wrote:
    Christ. If there were a medal for sycophancy you'd win it at a canter. Great, so called provocative storytellers, are masters of language. They don't make flippant racial slurs in pulp crime thrillers. Fleming is one of my favourite authors of all-time, that doesn't mean I can't see the glaringly obvious.
    ..and your blinders allow you a crystal clear focus too. Awesome.
    Provocative storytellers are masters of language?! That's it!? They're mere wordsmiths!? Very well, carry on.

    You know exactly what I mean, but you appear to be 'foaming all at the mouth'. I'm not going to bother reasoning with you. It's like poking a rabid dog with a stick.
  • Posts: 2,595
    Revelator wrote:
    DarthDimi wrote:
    Siberia wrote:
    Well, Boyd's right.
    No, he isn't.

    Yes, he is. By modern standards Fleming is undoubtedly an unreflecting racist--there is no way a modern author would be able to publish what Fleming wrote about blacks in LALD or Koreans in GF. But as Boyd said, if you accused Fleming of racism he would have been understandably outraged. Fleming undoubtedly liked blacks, as he has Bond and Leiter say on his behalf, but saying that blacks en masse are instinctively superstitious and prone to voodoo is racist in the textbook definition of the word. (Just as the jigger joke in DAF is cringeworthy and insensitive.) And I don't see how calling Koreans apes would not be a bigoted statement in any time and place.

    I can understand why some people here have soft-pedaled the issue--for far too long, critics have used racism as an excuse to dismiss Fleming's novels as trash not worth reading. In Moonraker, M says that cheating at cards is one of the few sins left that can get you in trouble with society. Today, being accused of racism is one of those too. But we have a duty to be objective. The racism in the Bond novels is not a reason to stop reading them--it is part of the historical context of books written by an author born over 105 years ago; an author who shared the Imperialist outlook of many conservative Englishmen.

    The only place I think Boyd goes wrong is saying that Fleming was probably an unreflecting anti-Semite--there isn't enough evidence to support that. True, hinting that LeChiffre was part Jewish is fishy, but Fleming also goes out of his way to emphasize that Goldfinger was not Jewish. There are very few Jewish characters in the Bond books, and thankfully none of them are villains.

    I agree. I love Fleming's books and I don't give a damn if Fleming was slightly more racist than the average man back in those days which is the impression I get but some just won't have one say a single word about the man that is anything less than glowing.
  • edited November 2013 Posts: 31
    Fanatical cultists rarely allow objectivity.
  • edited November 2013 Posts: 908
    I am completly stunned about the arguments some of you are raising. I mean,if Fleming had only written only this very one opinion about countries and races there still could be not the slightest doubt, that he was a racist ( and please don't give me this "these are Bonds,not Flemings thoughts". This argument is ridiculous. This man projected each and every positive trait he envisioned in himself plus quite a few adventurous and sensual fantasies on James Bond. It is very hard to imagine he would given him such a radical opinion on koreans if he hadn't approved of it himself (It would be a completly different matter if he had made them Goldfingers thoughts, but ...!). Also,some of you like to blame it on "the times and age" in which he lived on, but that's making it too easy. I have read quite a few novels written then (and way before!) and I don't remember ANYTHING even remotely close to this line. The closest I can recall is a book by Agatha Christie in which she had some people from South Africa talking about blacks as "Kaffers", but since they were foreigners we don't know if she just tried to be correct about the way South Africans talked,or if this were her words. I don't mention "10 little niggers" since, as I understand it, this was simply the title of this song then,which was so highly appropiate for the Story she was telling.
  • edited November 2013 Posts: 2,483
    harkaway wrote:
    Odious apologist BS, selfserving pap of the lowest variety. You licked that shoe to a high shine but missed all the brown spots on the sole. But top marks in fawning self-abasement, congrats.
    Hope that doesn't offend, I'm merely 'provocative', feel free to feel morally inferior there. Racism IS morally inferior and I'm not afraid to say so, not even in the face of the frustrated tealiban Gestapo that's waxing away here in their rabid outrage.

    Tealiban Gestapo?

    Straightjackets are on aisle 9, sir. Have a nice day.

  • edited November 2013 Posts: 6,396
    harkaway wrote:
    Odious apologist BS, selfserving pap of the lowest variety. You licked that shoe to a high shine but missed all the brown spots on the sole. But top marks in fawning self-abasement, congrats.
    Hope that doesn't offend, I'm merely 'provocative', feel free to feel morally inferior there. Racism IS morally inferior and I'm not afraid to say so, not even in the face of the frustrated tealiban Gestapo that's waxing away here in their rabid outrage.

    Tealiban Gestapo?

    Straightjackets are on aisle 9, sir. Have a nice day.

    That is for the more discerning fanatics of the Earl Grey Party.
  • Trish wrote:
    RC7 wrote:
    DarthDimi wrote:
    And today, he almost functions as a symbol of the anti-PC movement in my view.

    I'm surprised to see this kind of comment from you Dimi, but I imagine it's probably not quite meant in the way it comes across. .... He is a window on a chapter of history, one which contains a rich tapestry of images and ideas.

    Where Boyd destroys his own argument is suggesting Fleming is unreflecting. That's pure conjecture on his part.
    F**k PC. That's all I have to say on the subject :)

    I know.
    Comments removed by Mod team.

    RC7 quite beautifully put, this era is indeed a rich tapestry. But you could say the same for any number of other racist periods and I don't think they should be admired.

    Well, well. So entire periods should be condemned because they don't measure up to idiotic, postmodern standards of racial egalitarianism. Truth be told, if the so-called "anti-racists" ever gain supreme control over nations or the West as a broad entity, I fully expect them to create concentration camps for whitey and to enact atrocities similar to what we saw from the Nazis and commies. The racial egalitarians are filled with as much hatred as anybody, but they are crueler and more ruthless than most.

  • Trish wrote:
    WizardofIce things that might seem like a joke to you can escalate quickly in society to prosecution of LGBT community. Just steer clear of that kind of junk.

    The only people who are being persecuted are those who propagate thought crimes and evince hate facts. And it is the gay mafia who are as guilty of this as anybody.

  • harkaway wrote:

    Fleming did not express 'racist attitudes of the time', he expressed the average attitude of society of the time. It is only by our modern day standards it is now seen to be racist.

    That's not true, the definition of racism wasn't different in Fleming's time. Things like the 'animal stench' of Koreans was every bit as racist then as it is now. Only in Fleming's time you had more people agreeing with such. But racism doesn't change into mainstream with the number of its followers, it becomes mainstream racism. That is what some pursue with apologizing Fleming's attitude, a handy device to justify their own leanings.

    Don't think that Fleming was somebody propagating outrageous views on a shocked society. The public (including probably William Boyd's relatives) are as guilty as Ian as being racist so I don't see why Fleming is being singled out for using the language of his time.

    But Fleming is not singled out, in everything I've read he's obviously seen as a product of his time, not a natural benchmark of acceptable 'provoking' views on the 'safe' side of racism as some try to paint him here. Somebody above mentioned other popular thriller writers of the time whose work doesn't resort to the kind slur Fleming employed. So his mild racism obviously wasn't obligatory, neither then nor today. It was his choice to use it, most likely because he was fairly sure he wouldn't offend with it. Fleming was very eager to please and would not have included views that threatened the success of his books.


    I think a night out with Dikko would be tremendous fun. But then of course I'm the kind of Stone Age Neanderthal who would class calling someone a 'pommy poofter' as a bit of banter rather than homophobic abuse that should see poor Dikko castigated on Twitter and sacked from his job.

    Could be that 'poor' Dikko isn't so worthy of your sympathy. If such a figure walks around today he's aware of the nature of his banter and should be prepared for the reaction to it. Sadly today even racists want to be 'understood' and cuddled, not my cup of tea.
    Gotta hit the sack.

    Actually, racism has come to be defined as opposition to any Leftist position on virtually any matter. Voting for somebody other than Obama? Racist. Opposition to "affirmative" action? Racist. Don't like squandering money on the welfare state? Racist. Refusal to use politikally korrekt terminology, such as African-American, transgendered, Native-American and gay? Racist. I could go on. But the point is obvious. An absurdly capacious redefinition of racism--and sexism and homophobia--is advantageous to Leftist ideologues who may brand an ever expanding segment of society unfit for participation in that society, and in the process, invalidate their ideas and beliefs. And once enemy beliefs are no longer acceptable, the Leftists have won because there is no longer an opposition. So this is really not about truth or morality; it is about power.

  • harkaway wrote:
    Fanatical cultists rarely allow objectivity.

    And who would know better than you.

  • DeJunkanoooDeJunkanooo Banned
    Posts: 25
    Gay mafia? IFM this hatemonger. Get with the times, its the 21st century. When they invent a time machine, you can go back and live in the good ol' days where "Blackie" had to drink from his own water fountain.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    The far Left & far Right do indeed end up in the same place. :-w
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    chrisisall wrote:
    The far Left & far Right do indeed end up in the same place. :-w

    Some sense being spoken, at last.
  • Racism: the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races:

    Problem with this definition is that of course it is fine to praise another race in a general sort of way, fair enough. It's only if you slag them off in a general way then it becomes racist. Thing is, logic dictates if you should be able to do one, you can do the other.

    Also, some people call it racism when it's xenophobia, not pretty either but not the same. For an Englishman to generalise about the French or Italians or what have you should not be branded racist in my view as it is to comment on national identity, not skin colour. It is a matter of taste.

    But other nations are associated with colour, eg India, so any slanging off those countries must be deemed racism of course.
  • That said, this fellow has plenty of time on his hands and could do with a few bob. Let's have him write the next novel:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-24931803
  • edited November 2013 Posts: 31


    Actually rantrantrantrantrantrant rantrantrantrantrantrant Leftist rantrantrantrantrantrant rantrantrantrantrantrant rantrantrantrantrantrant An absurdly capacious redefinition of racism--and sexism and homophobia- rantrantrantrantrantrant Leftist ideologues rantrantrantrantrantrant rantrantrantrantrantrant Leftists have won because there is no longer an opposition. So this is really not about truth or morality; it is about power.

    Let's cut this short, just so we're all on the same page here. May be interesting for some.

    PK (or do you prefer Herr Jager?), did you on another forum in the course of a discussion about white supremacy freely admit to being a racist? Yes or No?

    And while we're waiting for the answer to that one we might take a look at the interesting allegory regarding Sweden here:

    After Sweden completely collapses and vanishes (it will be the first European nation to do so) perhaps its fate will serve as a wakeup call to everybody else. This being the case, I can only pray that Sweden's collapse happens sooner rather than later.

    A 'wakeup call'? Interestingly I remember having read a similar rant about London, roughly about the time of the Olympic Games. It went on at some length about how the writer despised London and Great Britain and how he hoped it would crash sooner than later, to serve as a wakeup call. Do you remember that? It would be most odd if you didn't, it was written by somebody using the same 'Perilagu Khan' monicker. If it wasn't you it must have been a close relative. Now that wakeup call, would that happen to have the same significance as the one in the sturmlied (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmlied)? Germany awaken? Because that would give food for thought indeed.

    Yes, Tealiban Gestapo. I know why I used that term. Now we do all.
  • @harkaway Which forum is this on?
  • That's actually none of our business here. Both rants can still be found. It should just help to understand some of the stuff spread here, may be interesting for some.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,449
    harkaway wrote:
    That's actually none of our business here. Both rants can still be found. It should just help to understand some of the stuff spread here, may be interesting for some.

    Then maybe it should not be mentioned here either.
  • edited November 2013 Posts: 12,837
    DarthDimi wrote:
    harkaway wrote:
    That's actually none of our business here. Both rants can still be found. It should just help to understand some of the stuff spread here, may be interesting for some.

    Then maybe it should not be mentioned here either.

    Maybe I've missed something or I'm just being a bit thick, but why not?
  • DarthDimi wrote:
    harkaway wrote:
    That's actually none of our business here. Both rants can still be found. It should just help to understand some of the stuff spread here, may be interesting for some.

    Then maybe it should not be mentioned here either.

    I wouldn't have, only there seems to be a genuine deficit of understanding for PK's pov, having this information might help some readers. Why don't we just wait for PK's answer? Unless that is he's busy fending off the Leftist Gay mafia he feels is persecuting him.
  • edited November 2013 Posts: 4,622
    RC7 wrote:
    You know exactly what I mean, but you appear to be 'foaming all at the mouth'. I'm not going to bother reasoning with you. It's like poking a rabid dog with a stick.
    Of course I know what you mean. No problem there. 2100 posts. I can at least respect your bonafides as a commited Bondphile and contributor to much informed Bond discussion on these boards. I am sure you have actually read the Fleming novels.
    As for these others with post counts in the teens. Who left the friggin door open?
    The learned Dr. Khan and the ever provocative Wiz of Ice, whose Bond and Fleming credentials are impeccable, actually do deign to even acknowledge such blatherings from the precious types who suddenly infest these learned Bond boards. The magnanimity!! You gentlemen do go beyond the call.

    It would be great sport if the noble Fleming were still alive. I am sure he would find great amusement, to sit down and be lectured on what a racsist he is by such brave and high-minded souls, nothwithstanding Tiger, Dikko, Bond not to mention Noel Coward howling in the background.



  • harkaway wrote:


    Actually rantrantrantrantrantrant rantrantrantrantrantrant Leftist rantrantrantrantrantrant rantrantrantrantrantrant rantrantrantrantrantrant An absurdly capacious redefinition of racism--and sexism and homophobia- rantrantrantrantrantrant Leftist ideologues rantrantrantrantrantrant rantrantrantrantrantrant Leftists have won because there is no longer an opposition. So this is really not about truth or morality; it is about power.

    Let's cut this short, just so we're all on the same page here. May be interesting for some.

    PK (or do you prefer Herr Jager?), did you on another forum in the course of a discussion about white supremacy freely admit to being a racist? Yes or No?

    And while we're waiting for the answer to that one we might take a look at the interesting allegory regarding Sweden here:

    After Sweden completely collapses and vanishes (it will be the first European nation to do so) perhaps its fate will serve as a wakeup call to everybody else. This being the case, I can only pray that Sweden's collapse happens sooner rather than later.

    A 'wakeup call'? Interestingly I remember having read a similar rant about London, roughly about the time of the Olympic Games. It went on at some length about how the writer despised London and Great Britain and how he hoped it would crash sooner than later, to serve as a wakeup call. Do you remember that? It would be most odd if you didn't, it was written by somebody using the same 'Perilagu Khan' monicker. If it wasn't you it must have been a close relative. Now that wakeup call, would that happen to have the same significance as the one in the sturmlied (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmlied)? Germany awaken? Because that would give food for thought indeed.

    Yes, Tealiban Gestapo. I know why I used that term. Now we do all.

    One the same, and at your service dear chap. I am 100 percent guilty of recognizing patterns in sundry demographics, noting the obvious, namely that those differences produce inequality, and that a goodly portion of this inequality is genetic. All of the above is well documented in the sciences, both physical and social. And indeed, the ability to notice these things and the willingness to speak of them was fairly common as little as 30 years ago. Alas, fascists such as yourself have successfully embargoed and criminalized a great many truths. But the truth can be suppressed by fascistic tactics for only so long. Eventually awareness dawns and the Nazis and the Bolsheviks are destroyed. It will happen to the waffen PC as well. A shame we have to go down this bloody road again, but there it is.

  • timmer wrote:
    As for these others with post counts in the teens. Who left the friggin door open?
    The learned Dr. Khan and the ever provocative Wiz of Ice, whose Bond and Fleming credentials are impeccable, actually do deign to even acknowledge such blatherings from the precious types who suddenly infest these learned Bond boards. The magnanimy. You gentlemen do go beyond the call.

    So we shouldn't take the likes of @harkaway seriously because they're new and don't have as many posts as the rest of us? What kind of logic is that?


  • One the same, and at your service dear chap. I am 100 percent guilty of recognizing patterns in sundry demographics, noting the obvious, namely that those differences produce inequality, and that a goodly portion of this inequality is genetic. All of the above is well documented in the sciences, both physical and social. And indeed, the ability to notice these things and the willingness to speak of them was fairly common as little as 30 years ago. Alas, fascists such as yourself have successfully embargoed and criminalized a great many truths. But the truth can be suppressed by fascistic tactics for only so long. Eventually awareness dawns and the Nazis and the Bolsheviks are destroyed. It will happen to the waffen PC as well. A shame we have to go down this bloody road again, but there it is.

    A simple Yes would have been enough, thanks all the same.

    So a modern racist defends Fleming against accusations of racism, how ironic.
  • timmer wrote:
    It would be great sport if the noble Fleming were still alive. I am sure he would find great amusement, to sit down and be lectured on what a racsist he is by such brave and high-minded souls, nothwithstanding Tiger, Dikko, Bond not to mention Noel Coward howling in the background.



    Bet they'd barf about the lickspittle display, takes some getting used to tbh.
This discussion has been closed.