Who/what do you REALLY love to hate?

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  • edited May 2013 Posts: 4,622
    Was that a typo? I would say FRWL ...
    Timmer is one of the very few people here who feels DAF is a gem, so there it is. Personally, I think TB is his best individual performance where he and TY bring his first 3 movies together into one package.
    I can't seriously debate the 6 Connery Eon films. They are all tied for greatness. Equally great. In fact probably the six greatest films ever made. Each is flawless in every respect. I wouldn't change a thing about any of these films. OHMSS is also perfection. It's only flaw is that it's missing Connery, but otherwise, brilliant. Lazenby is superb and ideally should have been Sean's worthy successor.
    I really don't distinguish between the Sean-Bonds. They exist in a rarefied air.
    DAF is just my personal favourite, probably because it's the first Bond I saw, and as it was so campy-dark and brash and boasting such a bizarre cast of fun-dangerous characters, that I became hooked on Bond forever.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    timmer wrote:
    I can't seriously debate the 6 Connery Eon films. They are all tied for greatness. Equally great. In fact probably the six greatest films ever made. Each is flawless in every respect.

    And the prize for greatest overstatement in history goes to.....?

    DAF is great fun but flawless? Really?

    If it was a diamond they would sell it in Ratners not Tiffany.

  • Posts: 1,817
    timmer wrote:
    Was that a typo? I would say FRWL ...
    Timmer is one of the very few people here who feels DAF is a gem, so there it is. Personally, I think TB is his best individual performance where he and TY bring his first 3 movies together into one package.
    I can't seriously debate the 6 Connery Eon films. They are all tied for greatness. Equally great. In fact probably the six greatest films ever made. Each is flawless in every respect. I wouldn't change a thing about any of these films. OHMSS is also perfection. It's only flaw is that it's missing Connery, but otherwise, brilliant. Lazenby is superb and ideally should have been Sean's worthy successor.
    I really don't distinguish between the Sean-Bonds. They exist in a rarefied air.
    DAF is just my personal favourite, probably because it's the first Bond I saw, and as it was so campy-dark and brash and boasting such a bizarre cast of fun-dangerous characters, that I became hooked on Bond forever.

    I suggest you expand your cinematic knowledge. As far as I consider myself a big Bond fan, I don't think all Connery movies could be named as the best films ever. They probably are the best spy-fantasy movies or even the best adventure movies... but not even FRWL could be on top of The Godfather or other classics alike.
    I mean, they could be your favorites of all time, but to say there are the best ever is an excessive statement.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 It was this or the priesthood.
    edited May 2013 Posts: 28,231
    Ludovico wrote:
    Here is someone I would add to my personal hate list just because of DAF: Tom Mankiewicz. Not only did he turned Blofeld in a travesty (literally), but he also wrote a Batman script, thankfully that was never developed in a film, which was also appallingly bad.
    And he also made Bond a celebrity in his world, something completely unforgettable. X(

    I shutter to think what his Batman script was like.
    0013 wrote:
    timmer wrote:
    Was that a typo? I would say FRWL ...
    Timmer is one of the very few people here who feels DAF is a gem, so there it is. Personally, I think TB is his best individual performance where he and TY bring his first 3 movies together into one package.
    I can't seriously debate the 6 Connery Eon films. They are all tied for greatness. Equally great. In fact probably the six greatest films ever made. Each is flawless in every respect. I wouldn't change a thing about any of these films. OHMSS is also perfection. It's only flaw is that it's missing Connery, but otherwise, brilliant. Lazenby is superb and ideally should have been Sean's worthy successor.
    I really don't distinguish between the Sean-Bonds. They exist in a rarefied air.
    DAF is just my personal favourite, probably because it's the first Bond I saw, and as it was so campy-dark and brash and boasting such a bizarre cast of fun-dangerous characters, that I became hooked on Bond forever.

    I suggest you expand your cinematic knowledge. As far as I consider myself a big Bond fan, I don't think all Connery movies could be named as the best films ever. They probably are the best spy-fantasy movies or even the best adventure movies... but not even FRWL could be on top of The Godfather or other classics alike.
    I mean, they could be your favorites of all time, but to say there are the best ever is an excessive statement.

    It's a subjective argument, so there is no definitive list of the greatest films ever. You definitely wouldn't find any Godfather on my list, not even in a Coppola's best ranking.
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,058
    I shutter to think what his Batman script was like.
  • edited May 2013 Posts: 4,622
    0013 wrote:
    I suggest you expand your cinematic knowledge. As far as I consider myself a big Bond fan, I don't think all Connery movies could be named as the best films ever. They probably are the best spy-fantasy movies or even the best adventure movies... but not even FRWL could be on top of The Godfather or other classics alike.
    I mean, they could be your favorites of all time, but to say there are the best ever is an excessive statement.
    I'm a huge Godfather fan, but I will happily traffic in such "excessive" statements. I've read everything Puzo wrote, other than the two books he wrote before Godfather, plus I've read all the GF continuation novels, but Godfather as great as it is, IMO doesn't hold a candle to the Connery Bonds. My praise for the Connery Bond-films knows no bounds. All 6 films reside on a lofty pedestal which pokes through the clouds and might be visible from the summit of Mt Everest, but only if one stands on tip toes and cranes neck.
    I do rank them the best films ever made. With much love and respect of course to Vito, Michael, Sonny, Luca Brazi and friends, and of course Coppola's estimable filmmaking talents.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,448
    timmer wrote:
    0013 wrote:
    I suggest you expand your cinematic knowledge. As far as I consider myself a big Bond fan, I don't think all Connery movies could be named as the best films ever. They probably are the best spy-fantasy movies or even the best adventure movies... but not even FRWL could be on top of The Godfather or other classics alike.
    I mean, they could be your favorites of all time, but to say there are the best ever is an excessive statement.
    I'm a huge Godfather fan, but I will happily traffic in such "excessive" statements. I've read everything Puzo wrote, other than the two books he wrote before Godfather, plus I've read all the GF continuation novels, but Godfather as great as it is, IMO doesn't hold a candle to the Connery Bonds. My praise for the Connery Bond-films knows no bounds. All 6 films reside on a lofty pedestal which pokes through the clouds and might be visible from the summit of Mt Everest, but only if one stands on tip toes and cranes neck.
    I do rank them the best films ever made. With much love and respect of course to Vito, Michael, Sonny, Luca Brazi and friends, and of course Coppola's estimable filmmaking talents.

    How can anyone be upset by that? :-) Well said @timmer.

    Haven't read all this thread but let's not get carried away with dissing too many of Bond's most iconic moments. We fanatical fans are few in numbers, the rest of the public remember Bond for a couple of dozen or so famous moments. They may not be wll loved by us, but let's accept that Bond is only still with us because everyone has supported the films, not just the hardcore. And they have loved the excesses of the films. We should embrace those moments as well..............apart from the parasurfing in DAD.

    Of course.

  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    timmer wrote:
    0013 wrote:
    I suggest you expand your cinematic knowledge. As far as I consider myself a big Bond fan, I don't think all Connery movies could be named as the best films ever. They probably are the best spy-fantasy movies or even the best adventure movies... but not even FRWL could be on top of The Godfather or other classics alike.
    I mean, they could be your favorites of all time, but to say there are the best ever is an excessive statement.
    I'm a huge Godfather fan, but I will happily traffic in such "excessive" statements. I've read everything Puzo wrote, other than the two books he wrote before Godfather, plus I've read all the GF continuation novels, but Godfather as great as it is, IMO doesn't hold a candle to the Connery Bonds. My praise for the Connery Bond-films knows no bounds. All 6 films reside on a lofty pedestal which pokes through the clouds and might be visible from the summit of Mt Everest, but only if one stands on tip toes and cranes neck.
    I do rank them the best films ever made. With much love and respect of course to Vito, Michael, Sonny, Luca Brazi and friends, and of course Coppola's estimable filmmaking talents.

    Preposterous.

    Bad luck Citizen Kane, all of Hitchcocks output, The Third Man, Schindlers, Goodfellas - you've all just been beaten by the film with the fat bloke in a toupee and the elephant playing the slots.

    Presumably the 7th best film ever made is NSNA closely followed by Zardoz and even The Avengers? Are you Sean's agent or something?
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,448
    Of course it's preposterous. But it doesn't hurt anyone that timmer should think that way. His opinion won't alter movie history or have any bareings on the future Greatest 100 Films list.
    But it's still an opinion.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 34,984
    Opinions are opinions. One person's opinion might be preposterous to us, but it's how they feel. GE is my favorite Bond film of all time, and I don't see that being topped ever, but to someone else, they may laugh in my face because GE is the worst to them. It's just how it works.
  • edited May 2013 Posts: 1,817
    Don't get me wrong, I know it's a subjective statement and de gustibus non est disputandum but what I mean is that even if a film, or a book, is one's favorite, it's possible to acknowledge that even if it isn't the greatest ever made, is one's favorite. I have FRWL in my top 10, along with Godfather I and II, Walk the Line, Gladiator, ecc. But I wouldn't claim that they are the best ever made in formal terms (photography, script,...) because I don't know.
    And I've seen other Bond fans here that also claim that their favorite films are non-Bond... Creasy with Munich and Brady with Casablanca, if I'm not wrong.
    Bottom line, perhaps the thing I found hard to understand was to put DAF or even YOLT as the best movies ever, but I wouldn't disagree if someone said they were his favorite movies ever...
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    0013 wrote:
    Don't get me wrong, I know it's a subjective statement and de gustibus non est disputandum but what I mean is that even if a film, or a book, is one's favorite, it's possible to acknowledge that even if it isn't the greatest ever made, is one's favorite. I have FRWL in my top 10, along with Godfather I and II, Walk the Line, Gladiator, ecc. But I wouldn't claim that they are the best ever made in formal terms (photography, script,...) because I don't know.
    And I've seen other Bond fans here that also claim that their favorite films are non-Bond... Creasy with Munich and Brady with Casablanca, if I'm not wrong.
    Bottom line, perhaps the thing I found to understand was to put DAF or even YOLT as the best movies ever, but I wouldn't disagree if someone said they were his favorite movies ever...

    Precisely. Theres a difference between saying something is your favourite and claiming it as the 'best film ever made'.

    Surely Timmer cant believe this statement in his heart of hearts. Can he?
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 34,984
    Absolutely. I know within my list of favorite films, Bond and non-Bond, that they wouldn't be seen as some of the best films ever made. I think everyone should acknowledge this. Unless, of course, you're one of the moviegoers who only appreciates the most highly regarded of movies.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 It was this or the priesthood.
    Posts: 28,231
    Creasy47 wrote:
    Absolutely. I know within my list of favorite films, Bond and non-Bond, that they wouldn't be seen as some of the best films ever made. I think everyone should acknowledge this. Unless, of course, you're one of the moviegoers who only appreciates the most highly regarded of movies.
    I am sure some would laugh at me for having Spiderman 2 in my list, but I love it dearly for its brilliance and nostalgic power over me. Though it is a comic book film like Nolan's Batman Trilogy is does have amazing thematic qualities and an elegant script filled with magnificent content and dialogue; some of the best I have ever seen. I loved it enough to fight for it with an essay in this thread:
    http://www.mi6community.com/index.php?p=/discussion/1266/your-five-favorite-films/p8

    Some of the best hours I have spent writing. :)
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 34,984
    I remember reading your essay in that thread, Brady, and honestly, sometimes nostalgia or a first-hand experience with something can make a film top all of the others. It's one of the many, many reasons why GE is my favorite Bond film, and honestly, in my Top 5 films list, I would say.
  • edited May 2013 Posts: 12,410
    I think there is a difference between favourite and best (although I'll admit in the past I've worded it wrong and called my favourite movies the best).

    EG- I love the first three Rambo films and they're 3 of my favourite films, but I don't think they're anywhere near the best films of all time.

    I also think that FRWL, OHMSS and CR are probably the best films of the Bond series. But none of them (except maybe OHMSS, not sure where I last ranked that) are in my top 5 Bond films.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 34,984
    I think there is a difference between favourite and best (although I'll admit in the past I've worded it wrong and called my favourite movies the best).

    EG- I love the first three Rambo films and they're 3 of my favourite films, but I don't think they're anywhere near the best films of all time.

    I also think that FRWL, OHMSS and CR are probably the best films of the Bond series. But none of them (except maybe OHMSS, not sure where I last ranked that) are in my top 5 Bond films.

    Indeed. You have those iconic Bond films that most would hail as some of the best, but a fair portion of us have in our Top 5 some others that wouldn't even make it to the Top 10 or Top 15 for others in terms of what is the 'best,' just what is a favorite.
  • Posts: 13,257
    I think there is a difference between favourite and best (although I'll admit in the past I've worded it wrong and called my favourite movies the best).

    EG- I love the first three Rambo films and they're 3 of my favourite films, but I don't think they're anywhere near the best films of all time.

    I also think that FRWL, OHMSS and CR are probably the best films of the Bond series. But none of them (except maybe OHMSS, not sure where I last ranked that) are in my top 5 Bond films.

    I agree. FRWL I would consider the best Bond movie ever, but TB is my favorite.

    And this is even more true for literature. Some of the greatest writers I can't read, or I can but it is a great pain, but I have to admit they are great writers.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded Riding a white swan to Matera
    Posts: 12,211
    I hate to hear young fans appear surprised to find out that Craig is not the first James Bond.

    I hated the same thing when it was Brosnan.

    Maybe I have just been unlucky to, more than once, hear some uninformed young teens. But it is irksome. (hate might be too strong a word)
  • Posts: 13,257
    Murdock wrote:
    I shutter to think what his Batman script was like.

    That is not so far from the truth actually. You can find the script on the internet Brady. Be warned: it is nauseating.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 It was this or the priesthood.
    edited June 2013 Posts: 28,231
    I hate to hear young fans appear surprised to find out that Craig is not the first James Bond.

    I hated the same thing when it was Brosnan.

    Maybe I have just been unlucky to, more than once, hear some uninformed young teens. But it is irksome. (hate might be too strong a word)

    Welcome to my life, and a good proportion of my generation. How many my age are completely ignorant of Bogie, Sinatra, ELVIS, Lauren Bacall, Ms. Hepburn, Cary Grant and more is just beyond me...

    Thankfully, there are those that join me in keeping the memories of the true greats alive!
    Ludovico wrote:
    Murdock wrote:
    I shutter to think what his Batman script was like.

    That is not so far from the truth actually. You can find the script on the internet Brady. Be warned: it is nauseating.

    It can't be worse than the Batman script Aronofsky was going to film.






    Can it?!
  • Posts: 4,622
    Bond diversity of like. Many figure Tom Mankiewicz was one the best things about DAF, what :with all the smart dialogue. Meanwhile Mank and Hamilton were clearly a team, as Guy kept him on for the next two films. Mank and Ham were a couple of camp-meisters. I love their little 3-pak of DAF, LALD and TMWTGG. Good times!
  • Posts: 13,257
    Ludovico wrote:
    Murdock wrote:
    I shutter to think what his Batman script was like.

    That is not so far from the truth actually. You can find the script on the internet Brady. Be warned: it is nauseating.

    It can't be worse than the Batman script Aronofsky was going to film.






    Can it?!

    I haven't read Aronofsky's script, but the thing is, well, bad.
  • Posts: 13,257
    timmer wrote:
    Bond diversity of like. Many figure Tom Mankiewicz was one the best things about DAF, what :with all the smart dialogue. Meanwhile Mank and Hamilton were clearly a team, as Guy kept him on for the next two films. Mank and Ham were a couple of camp-meisters. I love their little 3-pak of DAF, LALD and TMWTGG. Good times!

    I never thought the dialogues were that smart. Or smart at all. For a spoof, maybe yes, but for a Bond movie? And the drastic change of tone! I do like LALD, but overall Mankiewicz's script really brought a serious drop of quality.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 It was this or the priesthood.
    Posts: 28,231
    Ludovico wrote:
    timmer wrote:
    Bond diversity of like. Many figure Tom Mankiewicz was one the best things about DAF, what :with all the smart dialogue. Meanwhile Mank and Hamilton were clearly a team, as Guy kept him on for the next two films. Mank and Ham were a couple of camp-meisters. I love their little 3-pak of DAF, LALD and TMWTGG. Good times!

    I never thought the dialogues were that smart. Or smart at all. For a spoof, maybe yes, but for a Bond movie? And the drastic change of tone! I do like LALD, but overall Mankiewicz's script really brought a serious drop of quality.

    Same here. OHMSS, FRWL, CR and SF are examples of great dialogue, but what Makiewicz brought hasn't impressed me yet. I don't appreciate anyone who makes Bond into a celebrity figure and spoof of himself in many respects.
  • edited June 2013 Posts: 26
    Top 10 List:

    1. Not having a worthy follow-up to OHMSS. They could have made something great out of DAF.
    2. Roger's clown outfit in Octopussy.
    3. John Glen - IMO, Glen was a hack. Even Dalton allegedly entered an argument with him because of the direction he was taking LTK into.
    4. The tarantula scene in DN.
    5. The use of Sophie Marceau's character - Elektra King - in TWINE. Renard came off as too much of a glorified henchman. I think I would have liked it better if Elektra came off as more manipulative than she actually did, so that we had a better idea that Elektra King was the main antagonist of the film, as opposed to someone playing second fiddle to Renard.
    6. The writing for Dalton's two outings as Bond being still under the influence of Moore's presence.
    7. Overuse of gadgets. They had gadgets in WWII, but they more practical-minded and less fantastical than what we were used to in the majority of the Bond films. I wouldn't have minded the gadgets as much, so long as they consisted of a select few in each film and were practical gadgets that served as actual plot devices, not just mere gimmicks that were used for thrills. You know, gadgets that Bond needed to rely on when all other means failed him - not just gadgets that he was using optionally to make things look cool. Examples include the aforementioned invisible car and the jet pack from Thunderball.
    8. People assuming that Craig was the first Bond to get down and dirty. In fact, Connery was actually the first Bond to get down and dirty (in the first film of the series, no less), because we notice that his knuckles are sore and bruised when he tries to knock some sense into the false chauffeur. Dalton was another Bond who got down and dirty WAY before Craig.
    9. The Tarzan scream and whistle noise from Octopussy & TMWTGG, respectively.
    10. David Arnold's soundtracks: they are starting to sound as if they are pieces of generic stock music for action thrillers.
  • Posts: 4,622
    Ludovico wrote:
    timmer wrote:
    Bond diversity of like. Many figure Tom Mankiewicz was one the best things about DAF, what :with all the smart dialogue. Meanwhile Mank and Hamilton were clearly a team, as Guy kept him on for the next two films. Mank and Ham were a couple of camp-meisters. I love their little 3-pak of DAF, LALD and TMWTGG. Good times!
    I never thought the dialogues were that smart. Or smart at all. For a spoof, maybe yes, but for a Bond movie? And the drastic change of tone! I do like LALD, but overall Mankiewicz's script really brought a serious drop of quality.
    Well, like I said, Bond fans have their preferences. Many herald Mankiewicz's dialogue as one of DAF's best strengths. I thought his writing was hilarious. Smart, witty and perfect for the camp-danger tone of the film. But I quite like the whole flamboyant,macabre, camp-tone that we got with the combination of Hamilton and Mankiewicz.
    Worked better with Connery I thought, but that's not really saying anything, as everything works better with Sean. Hamilton at least got Rog to play Bond fairly straight for his two films.
    Fun Rog evolved later with the Gilbert/Wood films.

  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    timmer wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    timmer wrote:
    Bond diversity of like. Many figure Tom Mankiewicz was one the best things about DAF, what :with all the smart dialogue. Meanwhile Mank and Hamilton were clearly a team, as Guy kept him on for the next two films. Mank and Ham were a couple of camp-meisters. I love their little 3-pak of DAF, LALD and TMWTGG. Good times!
    I never thought the dialogues were that smart. Or smart at all. For a spoof, maybe yes, but for a Bond movie? And the drastic change of tone! I do like LALD, but overall Mankiewicz's script really brought a serious drop of quality.
    Well, like I said, Bond fans have their preferences. Many herald Mankiewicz's dialogue as one of DAF's best strengths. I thought his writing was hilarious. Smart, witty and perfect for the camp-danger tone of the film. But I quite like the whole flamboyant,macabre, camp-tone that we got with the combination of Hamilton and Mankiewicz.
    Worked better with Connery I thought, but that's not really saying anything, as everything works better with Sean. Hamilton at least got Rog to play Bond fairly straight for his two films.
    Fun Rog evolved later with the Gilbert/Wood films.

    Yes its strange that all the wit of DAF seems to ...(Mr Wint pause for effect)... die in his other outings.

    Both LALD and TMWTGG have some good lines but not as relentlessly as DAF which is probably the wittiest Bond film.

    I wonder was he urged to tone it down after DAF? Or more that he was urged to turn it up for DAF after the misery (both inside the film and outside it) of OHMSS and LALD and TMWTGG are just a slight return to equilibrium?

    OK the JW scenes are supposed to be funny but they are slapstick rather than the wit of 'Alimentary Dr Leiter' or 'As long as the collars and cuffs match'.
  • Yes its strange that all the wit of DAF seems to ...(Mr Wint pause for effect)... die in his other outings.

    Both LALD and TMWTGG have some good lines but not as relentlessly as DAF which is probably the wittiest Bond film.

    I wonder was he urged to tone it down after DAF? Or more that he was urged to turn it up for DAF after the misery (both inside the film and outside it) of OHMSS and LALD and TMWTGG are just a slight return to equilibrium?

    OK the JW scenes are supposed to be funny but they are slapstick rather than the wit of 'Alimentary Dr Leiter' or 'As long as the collars and cuffs match'.

    I still have a soft spot for "I'm now aiming precisely at your groin. So speak or forever hold your piece"
  • Posts: 612
    Lee Tamahori.
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