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Who/what do you REALLY love to hate?
TheWizardOfIce
'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
I was just reading something about TB the other day and I got to thinking that I really depise Kevin McClory for his influence on the world of Bond - I don't mean in a jokey way either. I simply cant abide the guy.
I know we all slag off DAD or the pigeon in MR but at the end of the day they are still Bond films and I will watch them again and again so I obviously cant truly hate them. What I want to know is what are your genuinelyhated top ten things about the Bondiverse be it people, scenes from films, characters whatever - the only rule is your loathing must be genuine and must really make you see red rather than being merely annoying.
Had a quick search but couldnt find anything but someone feel free to redirect me if this already exists.
1. McClory - The bloke who thought that sitting in on a script meeting entitled him to a slice of everything Fleming and EON had built up. Although 'The Battle For Bond' shows at best naievty on Flemings part in publishing TB and at worst sheer arrgoance, at the end of the day it was his property and sadly if he had just vetoed the use of the Bond character in the TB story after it all fell through it is the last we would have heard of dear old Kevin. That McClory became entitled to use the character of James Bond at all reflects badly on the British legal system. Why not just a simple pay out in damages and a cut of sales of TB and any film based upon it? Handing McClory the rights to Flemings intellectual property seems an absolute travesty.
Then we have Kevins ongoing battle with EON as having made a mint from one of the biggest films of all time wasnt enough for him. He had to spend the rest of his life wasting his money and Cubbys in the courts trying to get his hands on more of EONs money.
For being the person who drove Fleming to an early grave, for denying us a proper send off for Blofeld and for just refusing to give up and go away and be thankful for blagging a little piece of what was rightfullly Fleming's and EON's he gets my number 1 spot.
2. The invisble car - Bond gadgets have often stretched credibility and you are perpared to suspend disbelief as long as it falls reasonably within the boundaries of physics but this is just a disgrace. Makes a mockery of the series and it fills me with rage to think that there are people who get paid to make Bond films for a living who thought this was acceptable.
3. DAF - Dont get me wrong its a bit of fun and I can enjoy it as such but the letdown after the heights of OHMSS is painful. Particularly seeing as this was the last chance to use Blofeld. OK George went and for whatever reason they didnt want Peter Hunt again but why they thought they could just ignore the fact that Bonds wife had been murdered is inexcusable.
4. Jinx - Do I really need to elaborate on this? A tired and annoying concept (a girl who is Bonds equal in the field) pitifully executed and acted. The idea that they actually got as far as a draft script and a meeting with Berry about a spin off for this diabolical excuse for a character would in any other walk of life have been a sacking offence for Babs and MGW.
5. CGI parasurfing - Bond films do real stunts. Period. If your concept for an action sequence is not even remotely attemptable with stuntmen then it gets scrapped. Its as simple as that. You do not press on regardless and to add insult to injury hire a company still using PS1 software to render stuff. Every time I watch that smug woman on the DVD extras talk us through how they did it at first I start to laugh at how happy she is with the end result and then I remember how I felt in the cinema in 2001 and I just want to punch her.
6. SF GB (lack of) - After accepting it for CR (because that opening is so kick ass) and being pissed off it wasnt there in QOS (for no apparent reason) I took my seat at the premiere of SF thinking to myself that 100% the GB would be restored to its rightful place for the 50th so I basically missed the first minute of the film through blind rage that they had done it again.
7. QOS editing - Theres a good film in there somewhere and theres also some good stunt work. But all this is pissed up the wall by utterly inept editing to the point of it being incoherent.
8. QOS freefall - Its the Daniel Craig era, we've left the shit CGI of DAD behind - hooray!! Except whats this? A freefall sequence that was done for real in 1979 is now done entirely with CGI. Is that progress? Lamentable.
9. TMWTGG slide whistle - Simply appalling. The person who green lit this should have been banned from ever working in Bond again. Even if it was Cubby. Why go to all the effort of signing up a guy to perform a ridiculously impressive stunt exclusively for you if you then just render it utterly inane?
10. Surrender - What a waste. Who made this genius call? I dont hate Sheryl Crows song but it really is a no brainer. How are people so clueless allowed to be in a position to make such decisions?
I know we all slag off DAD or the pigeon in MR but at the end of the day they are still Bond films and I will watch them again and again so I obviously cant truly hate them. What I want to know is what are your genuinelyhated top ten things about the Bondiverse be it people, scenes from films, characters whatever - the only rule is your loathing must be genuine and must really make you see red rather than being merely annoying.
Had a quick search but couldnt find anything but someone feel free to redirect me if this already exists.
1. McClory - The bloke who thought that sitting in on a script meeting entitled him to a slice of everything Fleming and EON had built up. Although 'The Battle For Bond' shows at best naievty on Flemings part in publishing TB and at worst sheer arrgoance, at the end of the day it was his property and sadly if he had just vetoed the use of the Bond character in the TB story after it all fell through it is the last we would have heard of dear old Kevin. That McClory became entitled to use the character of James Bond at all reflects badly on the British legal system. Why not just a simple pay out in damages and a cut of sales of TB and any film based upon it? Handing McClory the rights to Flemings intellectual property seems an absolute travesty.
Then we have Kevins ongoing battle with EON as having made a mint from one of the biggest films of all time wasnt enough for him. He had to spend the rest of his life wasting his money and Cubbys in the courts trying to get his hands on more of EONs money.
For being the person who drove Fleming to an early grave, for denying us a proper send off for Blofeld and for just refusing to give up and go away and be thankful for blagging a little piece of what was rightfullly Fleming's and EON's he gets my number 1 spot.
2. The invisble car - Bond gadgets have often stretched credibility and you are perpared to suspend disbelief as long as it falls reasonably within the boundaries of physics but this is just a disgrace. Makes a mockery of the series and it fills me with rage to think that there are people who get paid to make Bond films for a living who thought this was acceptable.
3. DAF - Dont get me wrong its a bit of fun and I can enjoy it as such but the letdown after the heights of OHMSS is painful. Particularly seeing as this was the last chance to use Blofeld. OK George went and for whatever reason they didnt want Peter Hunt again but why they thought they could just ignore the fact that Bonds wife had been murdered is inexcusable.
4. Jinx - Do I really need to elaborate on this? A tired and annoying concept (a girl who is Bonds equal in the field) pitifully executed and acted. The idea that they actually got as far as a draft script and a meeting with Berry about a spin off for this diabolical excuse for a character would in any other walk of life have been a sacking offence for Babs and MGW.
5. CGI parasurfing - Bond films do real stunts. Period. If your concept for an action sequence is not even remotely attemptable with stuntmen then it gets scrapped. Its as simple as that. You do not press on regardless and to add insult to injury hire a company still using PS1 software to render stuff. Every time I watch that smug woman on the DVD extras talk us through how they did it at first I start to laugh at how happy she is with the end result and then I remember how I felt in the cinema in 2001 and I just want to punch her.
6. SF GB (lack of) - After accepting it for CR (because that opening is so kick ass) and being pissed off it wasnt there in QOS (for no apparent reason) I took my seat at the premiere of SF thinking to myself that 100% the GB would be restored to its rightful place for the 50th so I basically missed the first minute of the film through blind rage that they had done it again.
7. QOS editing - Theres a good film in there somewhere and theres also some good stunt work. But all this is pissed up the wall by utterly inept editing to the point of it being incoherent.
8. QOS freefall - Its the Daniel Craig era, we've left the shit CGI of DAD behind - hooray!! Except whats this? A freefall sequence that was done for real in 1979 is now done entirely with CGI. Is that progress? Lamentable.
9. TMWTGG slide whistle - Simply appalling. The person who green lit this should have been banned from ever working in Bond again. Even if it was Cubby. Why go to all the effort of signing up a guy to perform a ridiculously impressive stunt exclusively for you if you then just render it utterly inane?
10. Surrender - What a waste. Who made this genius call? I dont hate Sheryl Crows song but it really is a no brainer. How are people so clueless allowed to be in a position to make such decisions?
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Comments
Wizard has already outlined the reasons for Kev but Tamahori was the one who (allegedly) wanted to confirm the code name theory and can be linked directly to three of Wizard's top 10.
For #10 I believe MGM (no wonder they went bankrupt with decision makers like these) took too active a hand in TND decision making, and EON went along with it. MGW stated they were under a lot of pressure from the studio during this project. Not only did MGM want the "hot artist" to have the title song, they also wanted Teri Hatcher instead of first choice Monica Bellucci as Paris Carver. The script also suffered from a rushed schedule. I'm amazed that I like the film as much as I still do even with all that, but then again it's brilliant compared to Brozzer's last two efforts which push the stupidity far more.
Take your points here but then Tamahori was just a hired hand. Shouldnt Babs and MGW be held to blame for not putting their foot down over some of his decisions? I certainly blame them for DAD more than I do Tamahori.
Luckily they have learned from their mistakes so I'm prepared to forgive. Although the point stands that but for their privileged position in that they are unsackable they would have gone for DAD. If a football manager delivered such cataclysmic results he would be gone.
I dont really get your point here. I think you misunderstand me - I'm saying that I have no problem with the idea of the sequence it is the execution.
The fact that the QOS sequence is eminently within the laws of physics and could be done for real is what winds me up here. If a similar freefall sequence was filmable for real in 1979 why wasnt it in 2008?
That is pretty much it for me too. They both nearly destroyed Bond. Tamahori was the Joel Schumacher of the Bond franchise, plain and simple.
When you put it that way, I don't have an answer except to say that perhaps there was too much risk involved for the stunt people. Some here have remarked that the chute should have opened much earlier or that no one could have survived that fall when it did, those who claim they were familiar with the physics of it all. I'm not in a position to argue that, so I won't.
I do agree as well that Tamahori, and we could throw Forster and Apted in there as well, are not entirely to blame for the shortcomings of their films. Barb and Mike signed off on these poor decisions in the name of creative control and they should share in the culpability.
Thats a good point but isn't the director the one on the front line. He ultimately filmed the likes of Mr Kil and Jinx and for that he's not popular with me.
McClory was a pain but I don't share the feeling that he was a real villain.
I'll come to the point about claiming a slice of everything that belonged to Eon later (as it's an important one. But I think it's fair to say that McClory (and Wittingham) did more than just sat in on a script meeting. They both worked together with Fleming to shape the stories and characters that would become Thunderball.
Fleming's actions in taking his work without credit or payment was legally and morally wrong. He was certainly arrogant but I think the claims that Fleming was simply naïve is way too charitable. It's not like Ian Fleming was a young guy writing and self-publishing his first novel who had picked up a few bits and pieces of someone else's work without realising that he wasn't entitled to use them. He'd been a published author for almost 10 years and had been foreign manager of a newspaper group for 15 years. He was a middle-aged man with his own agent, his own publisher and a bunch of legal friends who all would have certainly advised him to not use the material or to pay and / or credit McClory and Wittingham for their work. He must have realised, whilst writing an entire novel based partly on the works of others, that what he was doing was legally and morally questionable.
I don't know. McClory got damages and the film rights to Thunderball (plus a credit in the novel.) That was it. Fleming still fully profited from sales of the novel and also, I think, would have profited from any film adaptation. Really, it was pretty small fry. It could have been much worse. McClory could have demanded the novel be pulped, or that it be credited as Thunderball by "Ian Fleming and Kevin McClory" or huge damages etc. All McClory got was was Charles K Feldman had - the film rights to a single novel.
Again, playing devil's advocate, I think his behaviour to begin with was pretty good. He could have done a Feldman and tried to set up his own rival movie, competing with Eon. Had he done so in 1965 at the height of Bondmania, it's hard to imagine what would have happened. It certainly could have been very damaging. Instead, he worked with Broccoli and Saltzman and produced the most successful Bond film of them all (until SF, at least.) He agreed not to make a rival film for 10 years and he was true to his word. Even then, he didn't interfere with Eon's series except to claim ownership of Blofeld and SPECTRE. Now, I can understand why this annoys people but as Eon had done a pretty good job of ruining SPECTRE and Blofeld all by themselves, I don't think this was a huge deal.
The legal action McClory took against Eon in 1977 was just a demand that Broccoli drop the appearance of SPECTRE and Blofeld from TSWLM. But as the plan was to have Blofeld emasculated and quickly dispatched with and for SPECTRE to be turned into an anarchist organisation run by young radicals, I think that's understandable. Undermining Blofeld and SPECTRE in such a way could be seen as a threat to his Thunderball remake.
I think his ridiculous case in the late 90s to claim partial ownership of the cinematic James Bond was laughable. But I see McClory as much victim as villain. I think Calley and Sony took advantage of McClory quite terribly in order to pursue their own selfish agenda.
I think Fleming is pretty much to blame on this one. Alcoholic chain-smokers who spend their lives eating eggs and butter can only expect to last so long...
The terrible hoods' dialogue of the Hoods' Convention sequence in GF
The goofy helmet Bond wears in the jetpack sequence in TB
The way the villains fall down when sprayed by the water cannons in TB's PTS
Seanery's performance in YOLT
The slide whistle in Gun
The title track in Gun
Bond and Goodhead's Venetian hotel sequence in MR
Bond in Magnificent Seven mode in MR
Conti's tacky, threadbare score for the first quarter of FYEO
Sword-swallowers, fakirs and snake-charmers in OP
California Girls in AVTAK PTS
Xenia/Chuck Ferrell S&M scene in GE
Judi Dench's feminista intro in GE
Machine gun overload in final 2/3 of TND
Elektra King, but not Marceau's performance, in TWINE
The title track in DAD
The entirety of DAD from Jinx's intro onward
The sappy dialogue between Bond and Vesper following the torture sequence in CR
The editing in QOS
The politicization of Bond in QOS
Another Way to Die in QOS
All I want is this:
Is that asking too much? By all means fake the bit when the chute opens seconds from the ground as that would be too risky but I dont think the entire sequence featured a single shot of anyone in freefall (and before some smartarse says DC and Olga were in freefall - I dont mean in a wind tunnel).
I'm pretty sure I even remember an interview with Gary Powell or BJ Worth somewhere saying that the stunt team had no problems doing a similar jump as in the video above but 'they' decided against it. Cheers 'they'.
Sir James I'll address your points about McClory later as my shift at work is almost over and I have to go home and laugh at Spurs on MOTD so dont think I'll get round to it tonight.
Well I could be reading NSF I suppose but that would be a sackable offence! And quite right too.
Oh, I'll enlighten you come July! You mark my words!
You can throw in some more from me:
- YOLT's plot...actually a lot of YOLT
- Beach Boys in AVTAK
- George of the Jungle in OP
- Jaws falling in love in MR
- Bondola, Double taking pigeon in MR
- AWFUL product placement and Magnificent Seven in MR
- PB's acting in TWINE
- Denise Richards
- The way QOS treats the James Bond character
9. Winking fish in LTK: what a way of finish that superb movie...
8. DAD theme song
7. The bad rocket effects in YOLT
6. The cheap comedy in MR (not that much the Sci-Fic features)
5. Moneypenny's final insult in DAD
4. The code-name "theory": it ain't really a theory, more of a light newpaper nonsense
3. Continuation authors: if you can't follow Tolkien, Borges, Calvino, Eco... then what makes you think your worthy of follow Ian Fleming?
2. Kevin McClory: traitor, frustrated, oportunistic, unoriginal and despicable man
1. NSNA: the only thing that I hate more than McClory is the fan movie he made
1) No mention of Tracy whatsoever in DAF - There are many disappointing aspects to DAF but I can forgive the movie most of it's sins. If I'm in the right mood and I haven't just recently watched OHMSS then I can, for the most part, enjoy this film on it's own terms. But this business of ignoring Tracy's death is unacceptable. It's like OHMSS was this dirty little secret they had and they swept it under the rug and tried to pretend that it never happened.
2) Pretty much everyone responsible for making DAD - I don't blame the actors except for Halle Barry. She's just terrible. I think that the rest of them did admirably well considering the script from which they had to work from. You'd like to think that the movie was made with the best of intentions but how did it veer so terribly off course? Shame on the producers and everyone else down the line for giving us this turd.
3) The gun barrel sequence at the end - Yes it bothers me that much. There is just something so magnificent of seeing those white dots roll across the screen as the music cues up at the beginning of the film. It really gets your blood pumping and the excitement of another Bond movie is upon you! It also made the series unique and stand apart from anything else. Hey, I'm all for change. I understand that in a movie series spanning 50 years you have to mix things up from time to time. This, however, was not one of those things. Put it back at the beginning where it belongs or else don't have it at all.
Purvis and wades crapola scripts
People who overate goldeneye
People who moan about the gunbarrel not being where it should be
Soft rock at the denouement
Casting of hollywood names ie berry,richards
Lee tamahori
People who moan about no q or moneypenny and when they come back still moan
Jaws in love
Lewis gilbert humour which only he finds funny
Jw pepper in bangkok
The moneypenny masturbation scene in dad
The invisible car in DAD.
The Robocop suit worn by Sir Gustav Graves in DAD.
The winking fish at the end of LTK.
The slide whistle on TMWTGG's excellent stunt.
The reappearance of JW Pepper in TMWTGG.
Casino Royale the spoof version - a waste of time. Should have been an early faithful adaptation rather than this travesty.
DAD gadget-laden car chase.
Jaws appearance in MR PTS spoils the whole scene and the "surprise" of his return.
DAD tsunami surfing scene - ridiculous looking.
The chemistry set explosions in DAF.
California Girls in AVTAK PTS.
Bond and Anya Driving Dialogue in TSWLM while Jaws chews up the scenery.
Miss Caruso being hidden from M at the start of LALD - a poor way to introduce Bond and it all seems rather childish.
Started reading this post thinking 'hate' is too strong a word for my views on anything in the Bond universe, but @TheWizardOfice I have to totally agree with your views on all 10 of your points. I suppose the only other thing that immediately sticks out as an irritating annoyance is Connery's on going resentment with EON and James Bond. Maybe he was treated unfairly by Cubby and Harry, but it was a long time ago, they are both long dead and the opportunity they gave him has led to a vast personal fortune and an amazing career and life, isn't it time to bury the hatchet and be publicly grateful for what 007 and EON has done for him.
Come on now do you guys really hate this? It's stupid for sure but does it really infuriate you that much? I mean I'm not a big fan at all of the Tarzan yell in OP but it doesn't ruin the movie for me. If you do just absolutely have it in for the winking fish could you please amuse me by explaining why?
Thats another one. I don't know why but I can't stand that line and I don't care what Laz says about it "not being in the original script", its still corny to me. One of the few blips in an otherwise great film.
Caroline Bliss
Not cute, not funny, just embarrassing.
Mr Kil
Officially the laziest name a Bond film has ever had.
Jinx - her stupid lines, and pretty much everything about her character
The Bondola
The CGI in DAD
Madonna's song for DAD
The editing and camera work in QOS (exempting the Opera sequence, which was splendid)
AVTAK - Stacy for most of this entire film; in particular, I hate her actions after the fight at her house (which screamed, as if we didn't already know it, UNBELIEVABLE BIMBO)
MayDay and Bond in bed in AVTAK
The slide whistle in TMWTGG
Bond dropping his gun in TMWTGG (it's BOND for heaven's sake)
"This never happened to the other fella" - you are right, @Bain123;it bugs me tremendously, too; I can't stand it
The final Christmas joke in TWINE (spare me)
The Tarzan yell in OP
The inane hypnotizing of the girls in OHMSS; and actually the girls themselves, too
Jaws in love with Dolly
And the California Girls song during the AVTAK PTS
... and probably a couple more, but this was painful enough for now.
I can see why that line could rile but personally I've always liked it, on one hand it acknowledges that the audience aren't stupid and will be aware it's not Connery in the role, but also more importantly, in the context of the film, who says it's necessarily a self reference? Holding Tracy's slipper like sandal it could be a reference to Cinderella's Prince Charming, or even more likely St George rescuing the princess (a theme Ian Fleming often used as a metaphor for Bond's heroism ).
I agree with your Mr Kil one, that is a prime example of all that was bad and stupid in the DAD script.
While we are on the subject of DAD, can I add Madonna's truly dreadful title song to my list of hates, no other recording artist would of been allowed to get away with such an unsuitable, talentless piece of noisy rubbish. I can only assume Babs and MGW were so star struck by the famous singer that it was a case of 'the Emperor's new clothes' and she was just given a free hand to do anything she liked regardless of quality, no celebrity should be deemed bigger or more worthy than the franchise itself!
I think Madonna just lost it entirely, didn't know what to do at all, wanted to do something "different" and then just regurgitated this musical (?) garbage. I was stunned by how bad it was when I first heard it. I still can't believe it was accepted as a theme song.
I know the cinderella theory but something about it just makes me cringe a bit everytime I see it. Perhaps I'm too young to appreciate how NOT having Connery in those days was seen as a big deal. BUT even so it just seems cheesey to me nowadays. Its like when Broz says in the GE trailer "you were expecting someone else" but worse because its actually in the film.
Besides the fact he wasn't Sean was already established in the trailer and the build up shots of him driving the car and lighting the cigarette
I'll give you this. The 3 men worked on a script together and as its pretty much untangleable after all this time as to who came up with what I think the only fair way is to give them each 33% credit. However personally I lean towards thinking the concept was Mcclory's, Fleming put a bit of meat on the idea and then Whittingham is largely responsible for the story as is. I would say if pressed that the division is probably more like Mclory 35%, Whittingham 45% and Fleming 20%.
BUT although that might entitle you to the lions share of the story of TB, Bond is still Flemings and for a judge to award McClory the rights to use the James Bond character in as many films as he could get backing for (albeit based on TB) I find outrageous. A fair settlement would be damages and share of the book sales and the right to make films based on the idea of SPECTRE, Blofeld and the hijacking of nuclear warheads but the hero would have to be changed. At best.
Just imagine you knock up a script with JK Rowling who then uses it for a new Harry Potter book. You mght get some damages but there is no way her legal team would let you get a piece of the pie and be able to make rival Harry Potter films.
I tend to think this case is possibly a sign of the times it took place. Nowadays I dont believe a judge would award someone such rights to an already established character or franchise as we all understand the value of such franchise rights but back then the judge probably thought it was peanuts and a reasonable compromise.
Cant really argue with this. The fact though is that morally, as it is a Bond story, doesnt it ultimately belong to Fleming? If Fleming had just said 'forget the whole thing' and created his own original story for his novel that year then Mclory's script would have been rendered as utterly worthless as a piece of fan fiction.
In late 1963 what was worth more a cash payout or the rights to jump on the Bondwagon? I dont think what McClory got could be classed as small fry, although you could argue it actually hurt EON financially more than it did Fleming. (Just in passing, does anyone know the financial arrangements in place between EON and Fleming/the Fleming estate? Does the fact they had paid him for the rights mean that was an end of it or did he get any royalties?)
I dont really agree with this. In 1965 good luck to you making a Bond film without Sean Connery. Unless a studio had backed the project to the hilt with a big name actor I cant really see a standalone TB being that much of a problem to EON. And how many studio execs would have the bottle to sign off on a massive budget to go head to head with EON and Sean in those days? That said Columbia gave Feldman a ridiculous budget so maybe. But even if a rival TB had been a reasonable success then what? You cant just keep remaking the same film year in year out can you?
I havent read an actual biography of McClory but what I have read about him indicates to me he was a chancer far more interested in getting something for nothing than he was putting in a honest days graft. Fleming made a foolish error through arrogance, naivety, whatever by not crediting him and this guy saw a chance to live in clover for the rest of his life on the back of the work Ian, Cubby and Harry had put in making the character a success.
Fleming was living on borrowed time due to his lifestyle and that was his choice but the stress of being hounded by a parasite who thought he was entitled to a share of everything Fleming had built up certainly curtailed his life even further. If the guy had taken the damages and his share of TB's success I might have been more sympathetic towards him but the idea that he was entitled to a paycheck for the rest of his life due to the phenemomen created by Fleming, Cubby and Harry is just an insult to any right minded person.
Yes it was a bad omen, that beginning song. I did like the first half of DAD, though.