Would you rather a return to the gun barrel at the start OR have it at the end of the film?

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  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,947
    thedove wrote: »
    Brosnan's were not like Connery endings. Connery never did a quip at the end, that was Moore era. Connery's all ended with the girl but Connery never uttered a cringy line of dialogue. Aside from Kissy it made sense for him and the woman to be romantic.

    "Keeping the British end up sir." curtain drops and it is assumed that Bond and Triple X start to shag with their superiors right there.

    "For your eyes only darling." Cringe. No real romance between 20 year old Melina and 50 year old Moore. Yet they are going for a skinny dip.

    Moore's best ending is OP and I think that is where his era should have ended.

    "Drat I dropped the soap." cringe. This time 57 year old Bond and 20 something lady who never really had any romance in the film are now having sex in a shower. Moore's last utterance is an exaggerated "Ohhhh"


    It is funny how Moore's are extolled on here and Brosnan which matches that tone get ripped. I actually think Pierce consistently takes arrows that are meant for others.

    From the movies I have watched in the cinema I would say Craig's first three are great endings. I remember really being pumped at the end of GE. Dalton's were strong, though some comedy and a somewhat cheery Leiter undo that ending for me.

    I think that fits to the 'Bond by the numbers' line of thinking around Brosnan. But I think that's unfair. Brosnan is still negatively influenced by the fact that his films fall into a day and era that was, in effect, the most peaceful (in the West) and perhaps most decadent. DAD was over the top, but was even more so as it came on the heels of major historical changes, that make it look bad in hintsight.

    I agree with the critique on TND, just because somehow Wai Lin and Bond don't really have any chemistry. The producers/writers tried to make her a bit too much of an independent force, with the result that the connection between them doesn't materialize.
    But other than that, the films fit their time perfectly. Except, perhaps, for DAD, but it was still hugely succesfull at the boxoffice.

    Imagie if Craig would've followed Moore. Bt then again, the producers wouldn't go that far, and Timthy did an excellent job of turning Bond into a more realistic, human, 'hero'.

    It's just that the endings of his films are not outstanding ;-)
  • edited October 8 Posts: 538
    thedove wrote: »
    Brosnan's were not like Connery endings. Connery never did a quip at the end, that was Moore era. Connery's all ended with the girl but Connery never uttered a cringy line of dialogue. Aside from Kissy it made sense for him and the woman to be romantic.

    Yes, that's what I meant as well. Brosnan's endings are rarely quippy. GoldenEye has the joke about coming up in a clinch but it ends on them flying off in a helicopter romantically. In Tomorrow Never Dies, Bond says "Let's stay under cover", which is very light pun but bears a lot of resemblance to Connery's "This is no time to be rescued" from Goldfinger. In Die Another Day, Bond kisses Jinx after saying, "Especially when you're bad," (which is less a quip and more akin to Connery's "let me show you" when asked about the tape in FRWL) and the only real "humour" in the scene is us hearing Jinx's pleas to leave it in. The VR ending would be a more traditional Moore type ending.

    Only TWINE, with the heat signatures in front of M, followed by the Christmas pun, is a proper replica of the Moore endings.

    Anyway I liked the TWINE endings because of its creativity. The other 3 are more in line with the Connery era in putting function over funny, which of course works over the film but as individual scenes they lack oomph.

    Brosnan's endings (for his last 3) are all pretty saved/helped significantly by David Arnold's score and the his romantic takes on the Bond theme.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited October 8 Posts: 7,001
    thedove wrote: »
    Brosnan's were not like Connery endings. Connery never did a quip at the end, that was Moore era. Connery's all ended with the girl but Connery never uttered a cringy line of dialogue. Aside from Kissy it made sense for him and the woman to be romantic.

    "Keeping the British end up sir." curtain drops and it is assumed that Bond and Triple X start to shag with their superiors right there.

    "For your eyes only darling." Cringe. No real romance between 20 year old Melina and 50 year old Moore. Yet they are going for a skinny dip.

    Moore's best ending is OP and I think that is where his era should have ended.

    "Drat I dropped the soap." cringe. This time 57 year old Bond and 20 something lady who never really had any romance in the film are now having sex in a shower. Moore's last utterance is an exaggerated "Ohhhh"


    It is funny how Moore's are extolled on here and Brosnan which matches that tone get ripped. I actually think Pierce consistently takes arrows that are meant for others.

    From the movies I have watched in the cinema I would say Craig's first three are great endings. I remember really being pumped at the end of GE. Dalton's were strong, though some comedy and a somewhat cheery Leiter undo that ending for me.

    I think that fits to the 'Bond by the numbers' line of thinking around Brosnan. But I think that's unfair. Brosnan is still negatively influenced by the fact that his films fall into a day and era that was, in effect, the most peaceful (in the West) and perhaps most decadent. DAD was over the top, but was even more so as it came on the heels of major historical changes, that make it look bad in hintsight.

    I agree with the critique on TND, just because somehow Wai Lin and Bond don't really have any chemistry. The producers/writers tried to make her a bit too much of an independent force, with the result that the connection between them doesn't materialize.
    But other than that, the films fit their time perfectly. Except, perhaps, for DAD, but it was still hugely succesfull at the boxoffice.

    Imagie if Craig would've followed Moore. Bt then again, the producers wouldn't go that far, and Timthy did an excellent job of turning Bond into a more realistic, human, 'hero'.

    It's just that the endings of his films are not outstanding ;-)

    I just realized that DAD ripped off the "in/out" joke from OP.

    Wai Lin and Brosnan Bond needed a shot-for-shot remake of the TB ending. There, I fixed it.
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited October 8 Posts: 771

    Dénouement also known as "sting in the tail" ending. We haven't really had one since Guy Hamilton left the series 51 years ago and we've had plenty of the romantic ones since so I think we're overdue for one.

    The internet says

    denouement
    A dénouement is the final part of a story where the intricate plot is resolved, loose ends are tied, and questions are answered, providing a sense of closure for the audience.


    Sounds more like an Agatha Christie or Sherlock Holmes ending, rather than anything from a James Bond movie to me

    A "sting in the tail ending" is not a formal literary term but an idiomatic phrase for an unexpected and unpleasant twist at the end of a narrative or announcement.

    Surprise: The twist is unexpected and catches the reader off guard.

    Negative Connotation: The surprise is usually a critical or unpleasant aspect that changes the reader's perception of the story or situation.


    Like that, except that the surprise in a Bond movie gernerally doesn't change the viewers perception of the story, being merely the unexpected reappearance of a villain bent on revenge

    For me CR manages to include all the ending types together in one packege

    Firstly "Bond falls in love with Vesper and resigns from MI6, and the couple sail to Venice..."

    Those unfamiliar with the book might well have been expecting the film to end there, with the traditional "Romantic Ending"

    Secondly "M reveals that his winnings were never transferred to the British treasury, Bond realizes that Vesper has betrayed him."

    Giving us the "Sting In The Tail" aka "Surprise Twist" ending

    An example of Fleming subverting the readers expectations, by not providing the expected. Keeping his readers off balance and interested, by doing something different from the norm.

    And finally "Bond checks the contacts and locates Mr. White at an estate in Lake Como. He shoots White in the leg to disable him and introduces himself: "The name's Bond, James Bond".

    Which I would describe as a "Post Script / Teaser Ending" a little taste of what to expect from the next installment, in order to pique the viewers interest for the future, as Marvel currently try to do in their post credits scenes.

    But not quite a "Cliff Hanger" ending, which is what NTTD would have been, if they had left Bond's fate in any doubt...
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 6,157
    How is GF, DAF, LALD, TMWTGG, and QOS not a denouement? Without those endings:
    • Goldfinger and Pussy Galore are left in limbo with the audience wondering what happened to them.
    • Wint and Kidd are off without facing any punishment for the killings they have a hand in. We don't know what is happening to the satellite.
    • Tee Hee is left alive at the end. We miss Baron Samedi assuring us that while Bond accomplished the mission the power of the Baron continues.
    • Nic Nack is left without an ending.
    • Bond can assure M that he never left, we get a resolution to the sting operation that got Vesper entrapped.

    To me all these endings are the ones where while the main villain plot has been defeated, loose ends remain.
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited October 9 Posts: 771
    thedove wrote: »
    How is GF, DAF, LALD, TMWTGG, and QOS not a denouement? Without those endings:
    • Goldfinger and Pussy Galore are left in limbo with the audience wondering what happened to them.
    • Wint and Kidd are off without facing any punishment for the killings they have a hand in. We don't know what is happening to the satellite.
    • Tee Hee is left alive at the end. We miss Baron Samedi assuring us that while Bond accomplished the mission the power of the Baron continues.
    • Nic Nack is left without an ending.
    • Bond can assure M that he never left, we get a resolution to the sting operation that got Vesper entrapped.

    To me all these endings are the ones where while the main villain plot has been defeated, loose ends remain.

    I'm not knocking the endings themselves, they are all fine, just questioning the terminology used to describe what category of ending they fall into.

    I was more meaning that "denoument" and "sting in the tail" ending do not equate (although they may overlap). Many denouments do not involve any particular "sting in the tail" element.

    A Sherlock Holmes / Agatha Christie type denoument may hope to surprise in terms of "who done it", but is more often about "how done it" or "why done it" and how the detective worked it all out.

    With Bond the surprise usually only relates to the timing, it's no surprise that it's Goldfinger or some henchman, and it's not a resolution, in terms of the audiences being able to better understand what has gone on before, only a matter of physical retribution.

    Goldfinger ending

    Bond boards a jet to have lunch with the President at the White House, but Goldfinger hijacks the plane

    "Sting in the tail / suprise twist"
    However, in this case, because Goldfinger is the titular character, it has greater significance than the others you mention

    Leiter's search helicopter passes over the unseen pair; Pussy tries to alert them, but Bond playfully declares, "This is no time to be rescued".

    "Romantic ending"

    As for the others, if the audience never heard from Wint and Kid (or the satellite), Tee Hee (or Baron Samedi), or Nic Nack again, would it really matter?

    What I mean is that the raison d'etre of the scenes you mention is to provide an additional jolt of excitement for the audience at the end, not to "tie up loose ends". The writers could have dealt with the henchmen earlier, but deliberatley chose to put them to one side and keep them alive to use for a "shock" ending. Equivalent thinking to that behind the Bond pre-credit sequences. Start with a bang, go out with a bang. A different plot device.

    The internet says

    Characteristics of a Denouement

    Tying up loose ends: Any unanswered questions or unresolved subplots are addressed and brought to a close.


    "Loose ends", yes.
    However I expect to see baddies get their just desserts in any case, it doesn't require a denoument to achieve that.

    "Unanswered questions or unresolved subplots"
    Does a missing henchman who has not been caught and punished qualify?

    Revealing secrets: Hidden information or identities are brought to light, often explaining key plot points.

    Not in most Bond movies (imagine the MI6 team standing around M's desk, Moneypenny, Q, Tanner etc, while Bond expounds about the ramifications of the mission, then cracks wise and they all laugh)

    Returning to normalcy: A new state of equilibrium is established, though the characters may have been changed by the events of the story.

    Pre Craig, not so much. "Normalcy" yes, "state of equilibrium" yes, but "new" no, the staus quo of the existing establishment is always maintained. "Characters changed" no, the recurring characters remain unchanged by events (until Felix gets bitten).

    While the Craig era is the reverse, no "normalcy" is returned to and no "new equilibrium" is ever established.

    Providing resolution: The central conflict is resolved, and the characters find peace, happiness, or at least an acceptance of their situation.

    Pre Craig, yes, Craig not so much

    So I think the definition of "denoument" you are using is too narrow and doesn't do the word justice
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,518
    mtm wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    Interesting how we can view things differently. GE is a popcorn movie, logic is sometimes not strong here. I love the pick up and carry and the giggle from Natalya. It's a cute ending to the film for me. I understand it doesn't make much sense.

    My favourite bit about that is that because the helicopters are hovering above the shot until right at the end, James Bond can't hear them :D

    God i hate that ending! If i'd been Bond i would have given Jack Wade an unfortunate one..

  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 6,157
    Okay lets dive into the start of the movie. In the Craig era the film-makers started to play with the gun barrel. Saying that since it was a reboot Bond needed to earn the gun barrel. We got a quasi gun barrel when Bond shot the baddie in the washroom. QOS and SF placed the gun barrel at the end of the films. Mendes saying that his opening shot of the hallway didn't really work with a gun barrel. SP put the gun barrel back at the start as did NTTD. Though NTTD ominously lacked the red blood drip with some espousing that this foreshadowed Bond's death at the end of the movie as Bond "missed" the target.

    Would you rather gun barrel at the start OR at the end of the film?

    Do you want Bond to "earn" the gun barrel or are you good with the first time we see the new guy it's in the gun barrel?

    Do you want the producers to play with it? Should we see blood, or no blood? Maybe a digital bullet like DAD?
  • edited 8:15pm Posts: 2,140
    At the start. Always at the start. I don't need the new Bond to earn his gun barrel sequence. Been there done that. The gun barrel should always no matter what be at the start of every Bond film. It's the biggest tradition along with the main titles. The only exception was Casino Royale because of how they made it work with Bond becoming 007 and going into the title sequence. It made NO sense whatsoever to have it at the end during QoS and SF. Im hoping Amazon doesn't play around with the gun barrel for Bond 26 and beyond. Just have the new actor do one gun barrel sequence and use that for their entire run as James Bond. It's something so easy and simple to please the Bond fans along with keeping the main title sequence.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 19,339
    Although I obviously like to have it at the start, I have looked at Skyfall and wondered how it could work there. In that he wanted to have that nice shot where we follow Bond out of the door and busy Istanbul is revealed to us, that's a lovely moment. But the gunbarrel usually opens on an establishing shot, but they wanted to keep Istanbul hidden from the audience until he leaves the building, so if it had a gunbarrel, what would it open on? A door or something?
  • Posts: 2,140
    mtm wrote: »
    Although I obviously like to have it at the start, I have looked at Skyfall and wondered how it could work there. In that he wanted to have that nice shot where we follow Bond out of the door and busy Istanbul is revealed to us, that's a lovely moment. But the gunbarrel usually opens on an establishing shot, but they wanted to keep Istanbul hidden from the audience until he leaves the building, so if it had a gunbarrel, what would it open on? A door or something?

    It would open up right in the hall way as it did then Bond comes into the shot
  • Or it could open up on Ronson right before he gets killed, with a blurred figure in the background killing him as a Bond fake-out.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,845
    There's only one place for the gunbarrel, and that's at the start :)
  • Posts: 16,154
    At the very start and, ideally, part of the PTS as per Casino Royale. I mean you see the gunbarrel, Bond shooting, etc. Then Bond you see the gunman, rifle in hand, dead, Bond checking him, then action sequence.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 19,339
    fjdinardo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Although I obviously like to have it at the start, I have looked at Skyfall and wondered how it could work there. In that he wanted to have that nice shot where we follow Bond out of the door and busy Istanbul is revealed to us, that's a lovely moment. But the gunbarrel usually opens on an establishing shot, but they wanted to keep Istanbul hidden from the audience until he leaves the building, so if it had a gunbarrel, what would it open on? A door or something?

    It would open up right in the hall way as it did then Bond comes into the shot

    That's kind of like having the gunbarrel twice in quick succession.
  • edited 11:26pm Posts: 6,075
    To play Devil’s advocate, an issue I have with the gun barrel at the start of the new film is it might take away from the impact of the actor’s first reveal if we’ve seen them walk across the screen already. Personally, I get that sense with GE and TLD to some extent. And I’m of the opinion that SF made the right choice not opening on the gun barrel (Bond coming towards us with that lighting is too fantastic a reveal, and that impact would have been dulled by seeing him moments before). I’m certainly not a traditionalist with this.

    That’s not to say I want it at the end - I’d prefer it at the beginning, but I think they should do what feels right for the opening.

    My preference - gun barrel at the beginning, but with a silhouetted Bond a la the original Bob Simmons gun barrel.
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