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I was excited to buy the book to take on my vacation in the summer of 2008 and right off it just seemed more like fan fiction than a professional continuation of a Bond adventure set in the '60s with a stereotype villain with a physical deformity, a sport to test Bond and so on that smacked more of the expected formula of the film series than the tribute to Fleming as it was supposed to be. I finished the first few chapters, set it aside and have never to this day revisited.
Horowitz’s books feel like sincere attempts to make Bond thrillers, Devil May Care has the slightest whiff of an author sneering at the material and, ironically, failing to match up to it.
As to the question, I think on balance contemporary. I do really like historical fiction as a genre, having hindsight can be quite rewarding, it's one of the reasons I think Trigger Mortis is the best of Horowitz's run. I think with Bond especially, it's the same argument we have with the film series, they were written as contemporary thrillers and if want a 60s set Bond, I'll re-read Fleming rather than something that's 60 years divorced from that context.
I think it'll be interesting to see how Bond is handled in Hurricane Room, obviously he's going to be playing second fiddle to the other 00s but it'll be the first adult Bond since On His Majesty's in print, and there's First Light's new take a couple months before that. Exciting times.
It's one of the only things about the book that stuck with me. You get this weird twist where it's revealed the Bond girl is a 00 and, under M's orders, has been pretending to be involved with the main villain and posing as twins the entire time.
Personally, I find the implication that M's gone completely mad and is sending his agents on these weird (and rather pointless) side missions unknown to each other quite funny.
Would you rather watch Dalton's Bond get revenge in LTK Or Craig's Bond get revenge in QOS?
Many hold Tim's second movie in high regard. Bond isn't on a mission for Her Majesty. This time it's personal and Bond is undertaking a mission for a friend. This was the Bond movie that earned a 14A rating. It was a quantum leap from AVTAK in a short 4 years. This Bond movie broke the mold!
OR
The revenge movie from the Craig era. After the devasting loss of his love Vesper. Bond is full of steam and ready to avenge her death. Bond hunts down leads and it all leads to a mysterious organization called Quantum. This Bond didn't get the girl and didn't crack wise.
So which revenge based flick are you throwing on the TV?
This: folks misunderstand QoS by calling it a revenge film, but Bond keeps telling us he’s not out for revenge, and he doesn’t get it. He also doesn’t go rogue: “I never left”
License to Kill is great fun, and a MUCH better movie.
LTK.
The funny thing is that I think QOS is exactly what LTK was criticized for back in the day, but LTK is more Bond-like in my opinion.
She puts a stop on his cards but only because she doesn't trust him: he's doing nothing but his job at that point- she told him to follow the money and find the organisation and that's exactly what he does. He goes rogue for less than a minute, when he beats up all the MI6 guys in the lift and escapes- he then chats to M in the corridor and she realises he's onside and lets him do his job.
Quite why he never talks to M beforehand is a bit of mystery: maybe it's just his nature not to care what others think about him and doesn't think he can convince her or it's just not worth his time. Maybe it's actually a slight lack of respect thing for M at that point: he doesn't consider her opinion of him important- that he does later perhaps shows some growth in him. It could be better.
There's certainly a revenge theme, but Camille is the one who is out for revenge. Bond however is the one who says "the dead don't care about vengeance".
I don't love either film to be honest. Both QoS and LTK lack that certain Bond feel for me somehow; something's not there. And although LTK has a few elements I like and is written better than most Bond films in some ways (the action scenes actually have repercussions throughout the movie and what different characters know and don't know is vitally important all the way through- and adapting the 'Bond joins the villain's gang' plot from Fleming well) in others it's pretty clunky, with Della just existing because they didn't have the balls to kill off Felix, and being dispatched in an unnecessarily cruel way. QoS has more ideas in terms of what the story is about, it has actual themes and in parts is actually quite clever about that, but fails to form it all into something totally coherent, and it doesn't really end up having a very important storyline for Bond; even if Craig is a much more effective lead than Dalton for my money. Both films could be better directed too, although QoS is the one which gets actively damaged by the direction in parts.
License to Kill is more like a generic action flick, and I can understand people saying it doesn't feel like a Bond film. I remember it being on at the cinema, and there was hardly any buzz around it. Even the posters looked cobbled together quickly, compared to Daylights.
I love LTK, but it's always felt like 'cheap Bond' in a way, (which is ironic, seeing as he has more money in that film than any other!)
Sanchez though, brilliant villain. Even nastier when I saw the DVD version!
I think for all of QOS’s flaws, it’s actually quite a simple story. In many ways it’s too simplistic for all the ideas in there! The extent of revenge on Bond’s part is him finally discovering Yussief is alive and a honey trap agent (this is the only figure Bond can conceivably take revenge on, but apart from the implication he’s alive he really doesn’t go after him directly throughout the film). He sees how empty Camille is after avenging her parents, he concludes the dead don’t care about vengeance, and this reinforces him doing his job, presumably getting some solace in stopping any further cycle.
To be fair, LTK isn’t perfect either. You can tell it’s trying to reinforce this idea that Bond’s personal vendetta has consequences, but apart from the Hong King agents we get a pretty limp (and bizarrely invisible) subplot about stinger missiles and Pam investigating this or something. And then Bond just kills Sanchez and him and Leiter have a laugh over the phone. It reminds me of Batman ‘89 (which of course came out later the same year). The hero vows revenge, and there’s this implication we’re going to get some sort of turn in the story or beat which makes the character rethink something. But no, the hero just kills the villain and that’s it.
I don’t like the term ‘arthouse’ (we’re not talking about a David Lynch film here) but I think Forster has this weird tinge of artistic ambition in his direction. But it doesn’t work, and you get the sense he’s not quite able to tell the story. The cutting back to the horse race during the White interrogation is quintessential first year film school student nonsense (spoils a perfectly tense scene/performance with editing ‘tricks’).
Yeah I absolutely get what you mean, it does feel a bit cheap, even though I can't quite put my finger on why. The 'big lair' at the end feels very half-hearted, it's all set in the same place with locations rather than cool designed sets; I guess it's that sort of thing. Even though it's obviously a very expensive blockbuster!
Agreed on Sanchez too though: he's got the charisma to be a proper baddie and they even dare to make him oddly honourable and close to likeable at times (he actually makes more impression on me than Bond to be honest).
Yes, that's what I was driving at when I said it was clunky above. It's so straightforward, it kind of has nothing to say. The actual plot of how Bond goes about his mission is good, but the story of the characters is dull old stuff, and Bond doesn't really learn anything and neither do his friends change their opinion of him. The story of him basically betraying M and his duty is never addressed or even properly resolved, and the film is named after it!
QoS on the other hand is at least trying to get to the bottom of something as regards the characters, and to say something about the themes it raises (it actually aligns more with FYEO on the whole 'dig two graves' stuff than it does LTK) even if it doesn't quite get there. It's a more thoughtful script.
Agreed; as I say, I think it might be the only Bond film where you could say it's actually badly directed; not least because some of the storytelling points just aren't really communicated to the audience, along with some of the action beats and jokes as we've discussed before- having moments which leave the audience wondering 'what actually happened there?' is not a good sign!
Some other Bond films might be directed with no flair, like LTK really (and I think it could really do with a lot more punch), but they only ever reach the low of being workmanlike, not actually poor, like this one.
QOS starts with getting a mission to go to Haiti. You have to envision that he's sent by M based on the money forensics scene. Then he kinda goes rogue based on events that follow. However, I don't see it much as revenge as it is him just following the trail that starts in London, Haiti then on to uncover the conspiracies behind Quantum. It just gets out of hand not solely based on revenge but him being framed with the killing of Haines bodyguard.
LTK starts with Bond being on leave for Leiter's wedding. Then he bases the rest of the film on a revenge tour on Leiter's behalf and works much better since it is a one man going after one man from rather than unmasking a villainous organization.
I think QoS only has a few minor distractions, of which probalby the most jarring is they gave Greene's organisation the name 'Quantum'. They should've stayed away from that. Bond, in CR, already says to Vesper he wants to leave with 'whatever is left' of him. A reference to that, to losing your humanity, with the word 'quantum' in it, would've been more than enough to reference the title. And it would focus people on the real story that's beeing told. And yes, the directing is a bit too much. Nice, to be in 'Bond's mental state' in a carchase, but if you can't see what's going on, or only after watching the film five times, it doesn't work in the films' favour. Which is a pity, as it is an impressive chase. One of the best car chases in Bond history if you ask me.
But I digress, because the question was which film you prefer. I prefer QoS, mainly because Bond doesn't go rogue, and the help Bond gets from 'the team' in LTK makes no sense at all story wise. Davi as Sanches is indeed one of the best villains of the series. Bond actually does some proper spying and intrigue, something we see way too little of in the series.
In short, I love both films, and both have some shortcomings that could've easily been avoided. But QoS definately ends on top.
@007HallY Interesting comparison between LTK and Batman 89. I really liked Batman, but I always found it frustratingly generic and unimaginative at times, at least when one would check beyond its brilliant atmosphere. I always thought that both LTK and Batman were generic 80s action movies with their respective hero stepping in a world that is not quite their own. Batman might actually be the worst offender of the two, as he checks so many clichés: hero with a personal grudge against the villain (and vice versa), motivated by revenge, hero and villain also have a romantic rivalry, their antagonism goes a way back, their conflict is ultimately resolved by the death of the villain. It's like they went for tropes people would understand and tacked on the Batman universe on it.
I wish Bond killed the Police Chief in a more satisfying way in QOS. Landing on the bonnet than saying "you and I had a mutual friend" before shooting him for Mathis didn't feel impactful enough. Almost too quick to register
I enjoy it, but I’d argue the script isn’t great for a Batman movie (Returns is better I’d say). I’m surprised more people don’t pick up on the revenge aspect of it not quite working.
At least LTK tries to say something about Bond’s quest inadvertently harming people around him.
That's a really good point, that would have tied it in perfectly. Have Bond and Mathis talk it through on the plane.
Otherwise, if they absolutely had to use a word from the title as the baddie org, I still think 'Solace' is way creepier!
Ah man, don't spoil Batman for me! (you're right though).
I love it, but ironically enough I always thought the plot was seriously lacking. Too many clichés, too many contrived coincidences, etc.
I'd say at least Bond is a character that can have revenge as a motivator, whether principled or personal. Batman as a character is actually not meant to pursue revenge. His crusade against crime is due to a childhood trauma, but he seeks justice and is meant to get selfless. You lose this in Batman 89. And when vengeance comes, it's utterly anticlimactic. The Joker has no idea he killed Bruce Wayne's parents (or if he does, he doesn't care) and he meets his end pushed down a cathedral.
LTK definitely suffers from the same thing: it's like 1989 was oddly between two periods where they realised that adding a bit of personal stakes makes a film more compelling, but they kind of forget to follow through on them so it feels a bit unsatisfying to watch today. I really want to see that scene where Bond and M come to terms after everything he's done, I want to see the impact of him spoiling the Keller/stinger deal on Bond's actions for then on in, but we don't really get either. QoS at least attempts to show the impact of what's happening on its characters.
I also really want to see Dalton's Bond deliver his best man speech. He's so repressed and uptight about everything it would be great trying to watch him spit out a couple of bawdy jokes angrily and upset the crowd :D