Is James Bond just childish?

Comments

• mtm United Kingdom

  August 28 Posts: 18,914

  Yes, I think you have a point, it is silly old nonsense. I like it because it's a load of hokum which is made far too well and by people who are overqualified for it, which gives it a nice sheen of luxury that the material doesn't really deserve, it's true.
• 007HallY

  August 28 edited August 28 Posts: 5,834

  For what it’s worth, big studios and players for these films can all be considered ‘villains’ in some way, no matter how far back you go. I don’t think there’s anyone overly virtuous there, especially when you’re dealing with as much money as these films make. Even Cubby Broccoli had his moments of greed (underpaying Connery and Lazenby/trying to strong arm Moore during contract negotiations). I’m not a fan of Bezos or Amazon, but I’ve never thought MGM-Amazon’s acquiring of the creative rights to Bond was the straightforward case of a monopoly taking over the poor little guy. I think it’s more complicated than that.
  
  Anyway, as for the rest, I think as long as Bond’s been around (including when Fleming wrote the books) there have been those types of criticisms. You can apply the same sort of ones to superhero films or action flicks. Not sure what more I can say to be honest - I think they do have validity and will always have something deeper in them to say about our world, even if they’re adventures about this masculine, vice fuelled character (albeit one who is rather selfless in his sense of duty/defeating the evils of the world) told through the format of big, escapist blockbusters.
  
  I guess I can understand to some extent. I get a bit annoyed whenever I see some hack Andrew Tate type YouTuber using James Bond as this ideal to aspire to (the clothes, attitude, masculinity etc) without acknowledging the character’s deeper virtues/qualities. In reality if Mr. Bond existed in any incarnation I suspect he’d despise such people.
• mtm United Kingdom

  August 28 Posts: 18,914

  I tend to think something like the Moore films are the most grown-up in a way, because they completely acknowledge how silly it all is and have fun with it. Not that pretty much all of them don't have an aspect of this of course.
• Jordo007 Merseyside

  August 28 Posts: 2,865

  Yeah....AND I LOVE IT!
• LucknFate 007 In New York

  August 28 edited August 28 Posts: 2,085

  It's all complicated. You can't call something sexy and politically dense, that also serves all-ages humor at times, with thrilling award-winning music and design, literally rated for teens and up, "childish" imo. The author doesn't know how to describe campy, pulpy, engaging culture imo. I've never been comfortable with the seemingly wide assumption that there's some magic barrier between maturity and childhood. It's all dynamic, and each engages with the other. Harry Potter is childish but because the characters are that age, in a school environment, with the intention of appealing to young imaginations, it just happens to also been well done with mature themes. But it's more childish than Bond for sure, right? So then Bond is something else.
• NickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada

  August 28 edited August 28 Posts: 7,620

  I'm 100% with you on the Amazon debacle, and how I'm assessing my love of Bond in the current age.
  
  I think at the end of the day, Bond is pulp fiction; certainly when put up against the contemporary likes of LeCarre. It seems all of the Bonds from Goldeneye onwards deal with, in some regard, Bond's relevance in the modern world.
  It's pulp that has become semi-serious, and there are complications that come along with that I think.
  
  It's okay for it to be fun, and it's probably at it's best when it doesn't take itself too seriously. I couldn't see the screenshot in your OP but I think I got the gist.
  
  The only thing keeping me interested in Bond 26 at this point is Denis Villeneuve. If amazon asks him to do anything too egregious, my hope is he'd drop out and I can more less be done with it. I have my own Bond projects to think about.
• QBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.

  August 28 Posts: 15,335

  Don't let one mere hater with a stick up their bum skew your perception of the Bond phenomenon. It's clear they're mad at the world and the way it's become and blame James Bond for not being a real person here to save it. It's simply escapist entertainment that's brought a lot of joy to people's lives, and certainly not, as whingy whiner claims, 'garbage'.
• Reflsin2bourbons

  3:42pm Posts: 506

  I think one of the strengths of James Bond is that even if the principle seems like escapist or silly or childish, it can make quite a lot of movement. From Russia with Love is quite a well respected novel, and films like Goldfinger, The Spy Who Loved Me, GoldenEye and Skyfall have made a lot of motion and impact around the world.
• CommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea

  7:20pm Posts: 8,868

  George_Kaplan wrote: »

  Hello everyone. Back from the dead, or rather, returning for a flying visit.
  
  I confess, I've been staying off this site for the past month as my enthusiasm for Bond has dipped majorly since the Amazon deal. I simply have no desire to see a Bond movie made by a company owned by a Bond villain and I felt I had nothing positive or worthwhile to contribute. But that's not really the point. I've been reevaluating my feelings towards the series. I guess you could call it a crisis of faith (although I think that's a bit overdramatic).
  
  Anyway. I came across this today while browsing:
  
  
  
  I guess the reason why this stings a little is because, deep down, I wonder if the author is right.
  I've never been under any illusion that Bond is high art, but it does make me wonder; is Bond's continuing popularity just a symptom of our culture being dumbed down and infantilised? I mean, is there anything more childish than a macho power fantasy about a guy who shoots two-dimensional bad guys and beds sexy women? Is it time we all just grew up?
  
  I'm not trying to insult anyone. It's just something I've been mulling over in my head, especially as someone whose love of Bond contributed to forming my own aspirations of becoming a writer and filmmaker.
  
  Anyway, sorry for such a long and pessimistic rant. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts.

  
  Ok, so Bond is 'childish'? On what grounds? Which aspects? Is the author of the opinion that we should all watch french discussion movies about the meaning of life?
  To my mind the author is arrogant and disdainful. One of those people who look down on garbage men just because they themselves have a university degree, but at the same time are too full of themselves to pick up their own.
  Millions of people from all over the world have enjoyed these films for the last 60+ years, the books even longer. People of all statures and all walks of life. Perhaps a bit of humility would've been a bit more appropriate.
• j_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'

  7:32pm Posts: 9,361

  I wonder where @George_Kaplan got that quote from. If I enter "James Bond is just a load of fantasy nonsense" in Google, the only source I get is...this thread. Come on, George, you just made this up in AI to troll us a little.
• RichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.

  8:19pm Posts: 14,695

  Q thought so. Said so.
  
  
• GoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà

  8:56pm Posts: 7,774

  I'd say that judging someone else's likes or dislikes so harshly in itself is more childish than the likes/dislikes concerned.
• DarthDimi Behind you!Moderator

  9:29pm Posts: 24,885

  I think of Bond as a glorious heap of exhilarating nonsense for adults and for schoolboys desperate to be grown up (despite Fleming’s denials). Even the most “serious” Bond outings are essentially escapist fantasies, reducing the mess of real-world politics to a clean clash of good versus evil, however much nuance is sprinkled on top. But childish? No.
  
  And if we’re calling Bond childish, where does that leave other adult pastimes? Motor racing: grown men driving in circles to see who’s first. Football: thousands screaming themselves hoarse while a handful of players chase a ball into a net. Boxing: two blokes slugging it out in what is, at heart, a playground fight with rules. Even sipping sweet, colorful cocktails in a bubble bath could be branded childish under that logic. If the definition of childish is “simple pleasures,” then give me a “childish” Bond film over the tedium of everyday life any time.
  
  Besides, Bond has always dealt in themes far beyond the reach of children: sex, death, political intrigue, and that constant undercurrent of tension. Yes, there are silly gadgets, groan-worthy one-liners, and cartoonish villains, but the films were never designed for kids. They were made for adults who come for the spectacle and stay for the heady mix of danger, glamour, and sheer cinematic bravado. Larger than life? Absolutely. Over the top? Frequently. But childish? Not a chance. If they were, I wouldn’t still be here arguing the case.
• mtm United Kingdom

  10:44pm edited 10:48pm Posts: 18,914

  They're not really grown-up though, are they?
  And there's nothing wrong with that. Like another hero figure once said, what's the point in being grown-up if you can't be childish sometimes?
  
  I don't think it has to be taken as a pejorative or a personal insult, Bond is sheer hokum; and yes, it is a rather adolescent fantasy of what a sophisticated, grown-up man might be (the books even more so to some extent) but I can happily recognise that and still enjoy it.