How 'patriotic' should James Bond (and Bond 26 beyond) be?

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  • Posts: 1,928
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Bond's Britishness is definitely there in the films, even the recent ones. You get villains calling him a 'loyal terrier' or rolling their eyes at the 'empire', and of course Bond acknowledges he does his duty out of a sense of loyalty to Monarch and Country. I'd argue you can't really take that element away from the Bond films without something feeling off, but I don't think it'll get anymore nationalistic than that. I agree that Heyman especially should be capable of balancing that sense of Britishness with a broadly appealing blockbuster.

    Not sure one can cite 'King and Country' without being nationalistic.

    It's why LTK deserves more and more plaudits. Bond is motivated personally, rather than out of some toneless nationalistic fervour.

    Bond's character isn't contingent upon nationalism.

    Insofar as the specific story can give Bond any motivation, even a personal one, I suppose... But a film like LTK is rare in the Bond series, and ultimately he's not an anti-hero: his job is to get sent on missions for the British Government or act in their interests. If he doesn't have some sort of higher sense of duty I don't think it's quite the same character.

    I would also say nationalistic and patriotic are slightly different things, or at least potentially can be. With Bond as a character it can be an important distinction.

    That's actually one thing I always disliked about LTK: not British enough. It feels like Bond is making a long cameo in an American action movue.

    All Bond movies are American (Broccoli/Saltzman). LTK gets Bond out of his comfort zone
    and features a solitary London scene, in which Moneypenny essentially saves the day.

    We get a red double decker, too, just in case the intended American audience don't realise where it is.

    I know they're "American" in that sense (that said, Harry Saltzman was Canadian), but the series is British icon. You don't feel it so much in LTK, it's very American centric and a double decker bus in a single shot of a very brief scene doesn't really cut it for me.

    A quite British phenomenon, insofar it gained traction thanks to Americana. Fleming's novels took off whenever JFK rated FRWL.

    Still unsure why LTK is particularly 'American centric' any more than another entry.

    American cast, probably, but that's expected as it's mostly set in the US.

    You said it yourself: American cast, mostly set in the US. I'd add a minimal British presence in the story, and tropes extremely common in American action movies at the time.

    Same with LALD.

    Many Americans cast, American locations, Bond drinking Bourbon, Blaxploitation/French Connection feel yet not stigmatised the way LTK is.

    LALD is a fan favorite, but I don't quite understand why. It certainly didn't feel like a Bond movie, so it should be in the "controversial films" category.
  • Posts: 15,607
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Bond's Britishness is definitely there in the films, even the recent ones. You get villains calling him a 'loyal terrier' or rolling their eyes at the 'empire', and of course Bond acknowledges he does his duty out of a sense of loyalty to Monarch and Country. I'd argue you can't really take that element away from the Bond films without something feeling off, but I don't think it'll get anymore nationalistic than that. I agree that Heyman especially should be capable of balancing that sense of Britishness with a broadly appealing blockbuster.

    Not sure one can cite 'King and Country' without being nationalistic.

    It's why LTK deserves more and more plaudits. Bond is motivated personally, rather than out of some toneless nationalistic fervour.

    Bond's character isn't contingent upon nationalism.

    Insofar as the specific story can give Bond any motivation, even a personal one, I suppose... But a film like LTK is rare in the Bond series, and ultimately he's not an anti-hero: his job is to get sent on missions for the British Government or act in their interests. If he doesn't have some sort of higher sense of duty I don't think it's quite the same character.

    I would also say nationalistic and patriotic are slightly different things, or at least potentially can be. With Bond as a character it can be an important distinction.

    That's actually one thing I always disliked about LTK: not British enough. It feels like Bond is making a long cameo in an American action movue.

    All Bond movies are American (Broccoli/Saltzman). LTK gets Bond out of his comfort zone
    and features a solitary London scene, in which Moneypenny essentially saves the day.

    We get a red double decker, too, just in case the intended American audience don't realise where it is.

    I know they're "American" in that sense (that said, Harry Saltzman was Canadian), but the series is British icon. You don't feel it so much in LTK, it's very American centric and a double decker bus in a single shot of a very brief scene doesn't really cut it for me.

    A quite British phenomenon, insofar it gained traction thanks to Americana. Fleming's novels took off whenever JFK rated FRWL.

    Still unsure why LTK is particularly 'American centric' any more than another entry.

    American cast, probably, but that's expected as it's mostly set in the US.

    You said it yourself: American cast, mostly set in the US. I'd add a minimal British presence in the story, and tropes extremely common in American action movies at the time.

    Same with LALD.

    Many Americans cast, American locations, Bond drinking Bourbon, Blaxploitation/French Connection feel yet not stigmatised the way LTK is.

    LALD is a fan favorite, but I don't quite understand why. It certainly didn't feel like a Bond movie, so it should be in the "controversial films" category.

    I suspect it has a lot to do with it being Moore's first. But, while it has many flaws, I do like it, mostly because of its low key atmosphere.
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 290
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Bond's Britishness is definitely there in the films, even the recent ones. You get villains calling him a 'loyal terrier' or rolling their eyes at the 'empire', and of course Bond acknowledges he does his duty out of a sense of loyalty to Monarch and Country. I'd argue you can't really take that element away from the Bond films without something feeling off, but I don't think it'll get anymore nationalistic than that. I agree that Heyman especially should be capable of balancing that sense of Britishness with a broadly appealing blockbuster.

    Not sure one can cite 'King and Country' without being nationalistic.

    It's why LTK deserves more and more plaudits. Bond is motivated personally, rather than out of some toneless nationalistic fervour.

    Bond's character isn't contingent upon nationalism.

    Insofar as the specific story can give Bond any motivation, even a personal one, I suppose... But a film like LTK is rare in the Bond series, and ultimately he's not an anti-hero: his job is to get sent on missions for the British Government or act in their interests. If he doesn't have some sort of higher sense of duty I don't think it's quite the same character.

    I would also say nationalistic and patriotic are slightly different things, or at least potentially can be. With Bond as a character it can be an important distinction.

    That's actually one thing I always disliked about LTK: not British enough. It feels like Bond is making a long cameo in an American action movue.

    All Bond movies are American (Broccoli/Saltzman). LTK gets Bond out of his comfort zone
    and features a solitary London scene, in which Moneypenny essentially saves the day.

    We get a red double decker, too, just in case the intended American audience don't realise where it is.

    I know they're "American" in that sense (that said, Harry Saltzman was Canadian), but the series is British icon. You don't feel it so much in LTK, it's very American centric and a double decker bus in a single shot of a very brief scene doesn't really cut it for me.

    A quite British phenomenon, insofar it gained traction thanks to Americana. Fleming's novels took off whenever JFK rated FRWL.

    Still unsure why LTK is particularly 'American centric' any more than another entry.

    American cast, probably, but that's expected as it's mostly set in the US.

    You said it yourself: American cast, mostly set in the US. I'd add a minimal British presence in the story, and tropes extremely common in American action movies at the time.

    Same with LALD.

    Many Americans cast, American locations, Bond drinking Bourbon, Blaxploitation/French Connection feel yet not stigmatised the way LTK is.

    Whattaboutism. LALD and DAF are also very American (too much for my taste), but at least LALD has MI6 directly involved early on (DAF too, I guess, but I'm really not a fan of this one and it has many more problems). I don't think LTK is stigmatised, it has its detractors, but also many fans.

    One of LtK's central criticism is it's 'not Bond enough' due to its 'American' edge.

    It's worth remembering many Bond films follow this path without the criticism.

    DAF, LALD and AVTAK have all been criticised as "too American", here and elsewhere. Even GF gets sometimes criticised for its part in Kentucky (overlong, tacky, clichéed). So it's not something proper to LTK. But for LTK, it has more to do, at least for me, with the common tropes of American action movies at the time (personal vendetta against a drug lord, the hero operating without governmental sanction, etc).

    Mostly, the same tropes occur in the other 'American' Bond films, too.

    LTK isn't the first or last contemporaneous Bond film, but it does get the most stick.

    And other "American" Bond films get criticised for it too. I'm not sure LTK gets the most stick, not in this forum anyway.

    Not to the extent LTK does. It's usually castigated for being 'American', especially outside this forum.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,589
    I know LTK gets panned (rightfully), for cheap looking sets that were shot terribly (making it look sitcom-level in the early parts of the film), and gets little taps on the wrist for trying to compete with the Die Hards and Lethal Weapons of the day (even poaching Kamen to score the film), but I haven't seen excessive criticisms of it for being too American (?).

    Some of the stunts in this film, from the PTS lets-go-fishing, to the underwater battle/waterskiing behind a plane, to the tanker chase climax (thank you Ms. Broccoli), are some of the most celebrated of the series.

    If anything, I remember people back in 89-90 saying how dour and too serious and too un-Bond-like they felt Dalton was (I personally loved the portrayal, and even today I think and Davi and he are perfect foils (I believe Davi elevated Dalton)).
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 290
    peter wrote: »
    I know LTK gets panned (rightfully), for cheap looking sets that were shot terribly (making it look sitcom-level in the early parts of the film), and gets little taps on the wrist for trying to compete with the Die Hards and Lethal Weapons of the day (even poaching Kamen to score the film), but I haven't seen excessive criticisms of it for being too American (?).

    Some of the stunts in this film, from the PTS lets-go-fishing, to the underwater battle/waterskiing behind a plane, to the tanker chase climax (thank you Ms. Broccoli), are some of the most celebrated of the series.

    If anything, I remember people back in 89-90 saying how dour and too serious and too un-Bond-like they felt Dalton was (I personally loved the portrayal, and even today I think and Davi and he are perfect foils (I believe Davi elevated Dalton)).

    Your first paragraph explains the 'American' criticism neatly.

    Paragraph two is apt, but the stunts in this film are usually lost on people who think 'it isn't Bond' and compare it unfavourably to contemporary American films of the era.
  • Posts: 15,607
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Bond's Britishness is definitely there in the films, even the recent ones. You get villains calling him a 'loyal terrier' or rolling their eyes at the 'empire', and of course Bond acknowledges he does his duty out of a sense of loyalty to Monarch and Country. I'd argue you can't really take that element away from the Bond films without something feeling off, but I don't think it'll get anymore nationalistic than that. I agree that Heyman especially should be capable of balancing that sense of Britishness with a broadly appealing blockbuster.

    Not sure one can cite 'King and Country' without being nationalistic.

    It's why LTK deserves more and more plaudits. Bond is motivated personally, rather than out of some toneless nationalistic fervour.

    Bond's character isn't contingent upon nationalism.

    Insofar as the specific story can give Bond any motivation, even a personal one, I suppose... But a film like LTK is rare in the Bond series, and ultimately he's not an anti-hero: his job is to get sent on missions for the British Government or act in their interests. If he doesn't have some sort of higher sense of duty I don't think it's quite the same character.

    I would also say nationalistic and patriotic are slightly different things, or at least potentially can be. With Bond as a character it can be an important distinction.

    That's actually one thing I always disliked about LTK: not British enough. It feels like Bond is making a long cameo in an American action movue.

    All Bond movies are American (Broccoli/Saltzman). LTK gets Bond out of his comfort zone
    and features a solitary London scene, in which Moneypenny essentially saves the day.

    We get a red double decker, too, just in case the intended American audience don't realise where it is.

    I know they're "American" in that sense (that said, Harry Saltzman was Canadian), but the series is British icon. You don't feel it so much in LTK, it's very American centric and a double decker bus in a single shot of a very brief scene doesn't really cut it for me.

    A quite British phenomenon, insofar it gained traction thanks to Americana. Fleming's novels took off whenever JFK rated FRWL.

    Still unsure why LTK is particularly 'American centric' any more than another entry.

    American cast, probably, but that's expected as it's mostly set in the US.

    You said it yourself: American cast, mostly set in the US. I'd add a minimal British presence in the story, and tropes extremely common in American action movies at the time.

    Same with LALD.

    Many Americans cast, American locations, Bond drinking Bourbon, Blaxploitation/French Connection feel yet not stigmatised the way LTK is.

    Whattaboutism. LALD and DAF are also very American (too much for my taste), but at least LALD has MI6 directly involved early on (DAF too, I guess, but I'm really not a fan of this one and it has many more problems). I don't think LTK is stigmatised, it has its detractors, but also many fans.

    One of LtK's central criticism is it's 'not Bond enough' due to its 'American' edge.

    It's worth remembering many Bond films follow this path without the criticism.

    DAF, LALD and AVTAK have all been criticised as "too American", here and elsewhere. Even GF gets sometimes criticised for its part in Kentucky (overlong, tacky, clichéed). So it's not something proper to LTK. But for LTK, it has more to do, at least for me, with the common tropes of American action movies at the time (personal vendetta against a drug lord, the hero operating without governmental sanction, etc).

    Mostly, the same tropes occur in the other 'American' Bond films, too.

    LTK isn't the first or last contemporaneous Bond film, but it does get the most stick.

    And other "American" Bond films get criticised for it too. I'm not sure LTK gets the most stick, not in this forum anyway.

    Not to the extent LTK does. It's usually castigated for being 'American', especially outside this forum.

    Not sure how you can quantify it. DAF is probably more criticised overall, although its "Americanism" is only one small flaw among many bigger ones. Same with AVTAK: I'd wholeheartedly agree that too much time is spent in the US, but that's only one problem the movie has. LALD, like I said, probably gets a free pass because of Roger Moore, a Bond actor far more appreciated among the general public as Dalton.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,783
    Slightly off topic, but I find the DAF, LALD and TMWTGG are perfect time capsules of the 70s. Between their wardrobe, settings and style they are of their time. Spy, MR have less of a 70's feel to them maybe because a Ken Adam set has a timeless feel.

    For Bond being patriotic. To me he should be. Though it is interesting how the character in the last 25 years has become someone who will openly defy orders. Can one be patriotic if you are going against what your superior in British Intelligence wants? I do long for the days when Bond got a mission and saw it through. Maybe with a stern talking to if he bungled it. Apparently that is not complex enough for movie audiences and so our hero must defy orders of the out of touch boss.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 14,398
    thedove wrote: »
    .
    For Bond being patriotic. To me he should be. Though it is interesting how the character in the last 25 years has become someone who will openly defy orders. Can one be patriotic if you are going against what your superior in British Intelligence wants?
    Absolutely, yes.

    Bond and civil servants may choose to do the right thing, in contradiction of their own boss. In spite of them, even. It's their duty.

  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 290
    thedove wrote: »
    .
    For Bond being patriotic. To me he should be. Though it is interesting how the character in the last 25 years has become someone who will openly defy orders. Can one be patriotic if you are going against what your superior in British Intelligence wants?
    Absolutely, yes.

    Bond and civil servants may choose to do the right thing, in contradiction of their own boss. In spite of them, even. It's their duty.

    Bond should act accordingly to doing the right thing, not 'the British thing'.

    Some films merge the notion. It gets ugly.
  • Posts: 15,607
    thedove wrote: »
    Slightly off topic, but I find the DAF, LALD and TMWTGG are perfect time capsules of the 70s. Between their wardrobe, settings and style they are of their time. Spy, MR have less of a 70's feel to them maybe because a Ken Adam set has a timeless feel.

    For Bond being patriotic. To me he should be. Though it is interesting how the character in the last 25 years has become someone who will openly defy orders. Can one be patriotic if you are going against what your superior in British Intelligence wants? I do long for the days when Bond got a mission and saw it through. Maybe with a stern talking to if he bungled it. Apparently that is not complex enough for movie audiences and so our hero must defy orders of the out of touch boss.

    I guess nowadays there's a certain distrust and contempt towards institutions that has influenced many genre movies. It's an era of mavericks and freelancers, where people of rank are perceived as pesky bureaucrats at best, incompetent legalists at worst.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 14,398
    For me the right thing isn't mutually exclusive from the British thing. Or the American thing.

    Bond has always been pretty much the red-headed stepchild not going along with the bureaucrats. That won't change.

  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    edited 2:58pm Posts: 1,740
    Bond's loyalty was never truly to the UK or it's Monarch - all the references to 'For England', or 'Ma'am' (referring to the Queen) were somewhat tongue-in-cheek.
    He definitely has a strong sense of loyalty to M, whom he sees a a quasi father figure of sorts.

    Bond's sense of duty is derived from something more subtle than patriotism - he does what he does because he needs to numb a certain angst borne out of being an orphan and an underlying feeling of never having truly fitted in with the upper class establishment environment he was raised in/by.

    He actually mildly despises the, in his eyes, boring desk-bound traditionalists who rule the British Empire.
    Bond 'fights' the evil he is put in front of not so much out of a sense of patriotic duty but more because it makes him feel alive and as a result of his strong distaste for bullies and megalomaniacs.

    Remember - he's a borderline psychopath, albeit one with a moral compass - someone who actually gets a perverse sense of excitement from absurd risky undertakings that would make the average human sh%t their undergarments...
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited 3:04pm Posts: 17,984
    AceHole wrote: »
    Bond's loyalty was never truly to the UK or it's Monarch - all the references to 'For England', or 'Ma'am' (referring to the Queen) were somewhat tongue-in-cheek.
    He definitely has a strong sense of loyalty to M, whom he sees a a quasi father figure of sorts.

    Bond's sense of duty is derived from something more subtle than patriotism - he does what he does because he needs to numb a certain angst borne out of being an orphan and an underlying feeling of never having truly fitted in with the upper class establishment environment he was raised in/by.

    He actually mildly despises the, in his eyes, boring desk-bound traditionalists who rule the British Empire.
    Bond 'fights' the evil he is put in front of not so much out of a sense of patriotic duty but more because it makes him feel alive and as a result of his strong distaste for bullies and megalomaniacs.

    Remember - he's a borderline psychopath, albeit one with a moral compass - someone who actually gets a perverse sense of excitement from absurd risky undertakings that would make the average human sh%t their undergarments...

    Yep, that's exactly my reading of him too. He's moral, he's loyal (as you say, to his superiors more than the country itself), but he's also mildly addicted to danger and needs it for himself. Which fits with the whole gambling side of him, he's in it for the thrill.

    I think to be honest that's not even that uncommon for someone who joins the military: I don't think everyone is doing it because they love their country so incredibly much, a certain amount of it is because they get something out of it personally.
  • edited 3:18pm Posts: 5,172
    AceHole wrote: »
    Bond's loyalty was never truly to the UK or it's Monarch - all the references to 'For England', or 'Ma'am' (referring to the Queen) were somewhat tongue-in-cheek.
    He definitely has a strong sense of loyalty to M, whom he sees a a quasi father figure of sorts.

    Bond's sense of duty is derived from something more subtle than patriotism - he does what he does because he needs to numb a certain angst borne out of being an orphan and an underlying feeling of never having truly fitted in with the upper class establishment environment he was raised in/by.

    He actually mildly despises the, in his eyes, boring desk-bound traditionalists who rule the British Empire.
    Bond 'fights' the evil he is put in front of not so much out of a sense of patriotic duty but more because it makes him feel alive and as a result of his strong distaste for bullies and megalomaniacs.

    Remember - he's a borderline psychopath, albeit one with a moral compass - someone who actually gets a perverse sense of excitement from absurd risky undertakings that would make the average human sh%t their undergarments...

    That's getting at something, but I'm not sure that's quite right to be honest. I think James Bond always skirts that line between his need for adventure and something deeper - in this case duty. I'm always reminded of the Scramanaga/Bond conversation in TMWTGG. It's framed more around the enjoyment of killing, but the main idea is that in theory the two are very similar (and that's not an uncommon thing with Bond villains - you see it also with Silva and Travelyan). Bond, however, would say that he kills for Queen and Country rather than enjoyment, and he's being quite serious in that moment. There's something quite fundamental which separates Bond from many of his foes in this sense.

    For me that's the key with Bond. I don't think he quite has the resentment of traditionalists that you state, even if bureaucratic desk types and traditionalists are often antagonistic or comedic in these stories (I think he's also far too much of a lone wolf and strong willed to hold any long lasting resentment - that sort of angst is for the villains). There's certainly a tongue in cheek element with the Union Jacks or 'ma'am' moments, but I think it's taken more seriously in the likes of SF and GE. I think Bond as a character in any iteration would admit that while the Britain he works for is very flawed, he'd also (perhaps even reluctantly) say it's better than working for any alternative, and any decision he makes for the greater good would ultimately align with that loyalty.
  • Posts: 1,928
    mtm wrote: »
    AceHole wrote: »
    Bond's loyalty was never truly to the UK or it's Monarch - all the references to 'For England', or 'Ma'am' (referring to the Queen) were somewhat tongue-in-cheek.
    He definitely has a strong sense of loyalty to M, whom he sees a a quasi father figure of sorts.

    Bond's sense of duty is derived from something more subtle than patriotism - he does what he does because he needs to numb a certain angst borne out of being an orphan and an underlying feeling of never having truly fitted in with the upper class establishment environment he was raised in/by.

    He actually mildly despises the, in his eyes, boring desk-bound traditionalists who rule the British Empire.
    Bond 'fights' the evil he is put in front of not so much out of a sense of patriotic duty but more because it makes him feel alive and as a result of his strong distaste for bullies and megalomaniacs.

    Remember - he's a borderline psychopath, albeit one with a moral compass - someone who actually gets a perverse sense of excitement from absurd risky undertakings that would make the average human sh%t their undergarments...

    Yep, that's exactly my reading of him too. He's moral, he's loyal (as you say, to his superiors more than the country itself), but he's also mildly addicted to danger and needs it for himself. Which fits with the whole gambling side of him, he's in it for the thrill.

    I think to be honest that's not even that uncommon for someone who joins the military: I don't think everyone is doing it because they love their country so incredibly much, a certain amount of it is because they get something out of it personally.


    It is the cheapest way to see the world and live adventures.

    I don't think he needs much more motivation than this.

    He's the kind of person who would cheat on his wife after the honeymoon. He needs action to avoid boredom.
  • Posts: 5,172
    That’s a side to Bond, but if that were everything and he had no deeper loyalties, he may as well just join the villains anytime one of them says, ‘you see Mr. Bond, we’re not so different and look how much better I am than you.’ Bond never does that. He always reaffirms his loyalty to MI6 and puts his life on the line to defeat the villain.
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    Posts: 1,740
    007HallY wrote: »
    AceHole wrote: »
    ...He actually mildly despises the, in his eyes, boring desk-bound traditionalists who rule the British Empire.
    Bond 'fights' the evil he is put in front of not so much out of a sense of patriotic duty but more because it makes him feel alive and as a result of his strong distaste for bullies and megalomaniacs.
    ...

    ...I don't think he quite has the resentment of traditionalists that you state, even if bureaucratic desk types and traditionalists are often antagonistic or comedic in these stories (I think he's also far too much of a lone wolf and strong willed to hold any long lasting resentment - that sort of angst is for the villains).
    ...

    I respectfully, but firmly, disagree - if you read Ian Fleming's biography, and read the subtext behind Bond's cavalier attitude towards overly risk-averse bureaucratic authority, you'll find that Fleming himself was quite antagonistic toward the pen-pushing Whitehall establishment. That's why he came up with his 'commando-style' clandestine unit - to avoid traditional Naval Intelligence work and do something far more stimulating and less demure.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,783
    Well said @007HallY I agree with both of your posts here. The first post made some wonderful and salient points.
  • edited 5:35pm Posts: 5,172
    AceHole wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    AceHole wrote: »
    ...He actually mildly despises the, in his eyes, boring desk-bound traditionalists who rule the British Empire.
    Bond 'fights' the evil he is put in front of not so much out of a sense of patriotic duty but more because it makes him feel alive and as a result of his strong distaste for bullies and megalomaniacs.
    ...

    ...I don't think he quite has the resentment of traditionalists that you state, even if bureaucratic desk types and traditionalists are often antagonistic or comedic in these stories (I think he's also far too much of a lone wolf and strong willed to hold any long lasting resentment - that sort of angst is for the villains).
    ...

    I respectfully, but firmly, disagree - if you read Ian Fleming's biography, and read the subtext behind Bond's cavalier attitude towards overly risk-averse bureaucratic authority, you'll find that Fleming himself was quite antagonistic toward the pen-pushing Whitehall establishment. That's why he came up with his 'commando-style' clandestine unit - to avoid traditional Naval Intelligence work and do something far more stimulating and less demure.

    Fleming's biography isn't really relevant here I'd argue (insofar as the works, and in this case the character, have a life of their own in the text. Many readers have no idea about Fleming's life anyway). If we're going just from the literary Bond and what's in those books, yes, he's certainly annoyed by bureaucratic, 'old boy' types and is often at odds with such people (there's a wonderful description in TLD where it mentions Saunders still wears his old public school tie). I do get the sense Bond is a lone wolf with a need for adventure, and certainly not someone who'd fit in with establishment types who sit behind desks, and call each other 'old man'. But I've never gotten the sense he has a chip on his shoulder about any of that, nor do I think such people represent what he'd see as his duty as an agent of MI6 (in fact arguably they hinder him from doing his job). He actually takes a lot of interest in the history behind Blades as an elite gentleman's club in MR (which I don't think he'd do if he resented that idea of the English establishment).

    It'd be a cool thing to explore in a future film though. Maybe Bond and M have to deal with some particularly dislikable superiors who want Bond to do something morally questionable. They could do a TLD type thing where Bond disobeying his orders and investigating on his own ultimately proves there's something deeper.
    thedove wrote: »
    Well said @007HallY I agree with both of your posts here. The first post made some wonderful and salient points.

    Thanks :)
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