How 'patriotic' should James Bond (and Bond 26 beyond) be?

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  • Posts: 1,927
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Bond's Britishness is definitely there in the films, even the recent ones. You get villains calling him a 'loyal terrier' or rolling their eyes at the 'empire', and of course Bond acknowledges he does his duty out of a sense of loyalty to Monarch and Country. I'd argue you can't really take that element away from the Bond films without something feeling off, but I don't think it'll get anymore nationalistic than that. I agree that Heyman especially should be capable of balancing that sense of Britishness with a broadly appealing blockbuster.

    Not sure one can cite 'King and Country' without being nationalistic.

    It's why LTK deserves more and more plaudits. Bond is motivated personally, rather than out of some toneless nationalistic fervour.

    Bond's character isn't contingent upon nationalism.

    Insofar as the specific story can give Bond any motivation, even a personal one, I suppose... But a film like LTK is rare in the Bond series, and ultimately he's not an anti-hero: his job is to get sent on missions for the British Government or act in their interests. If he doesn't have some sort of higher sense of duty I don't think it's quite the same character.

    I would also say nationalistic and patriotic are slightly different things, or at least potentially can be. With Bond as a character it can be an important distinction.

    That's actually one thing I always disliked about LTK: not British enough. It feels like Bond is making a long cameo in an American action movue.

    All Bond movies are American (Broccoli/Saltzman). LTK gets Bond out of his comfort zone
    and features a solitary London scene, in which Moneypenny essentially saves the day.

    We get a red double decker, too, just in case the intended American audience don't realise where it is.

    I know they're "American" in that sense (that said, Harry Saltzman was Canadian), but the series is British icon. You don't feel it so much in LTK, it's very American centric and a double decker bus in a single shot of a very brief scene doesn't really cut it for me.

    A quite British phenomenon, insofar it gained traction thanks to Americana. Fleming's novels took off whenever JFK rated FRWL.

    Still unsure why LTK is particularly 'American centric' any more than another entry.

    American cast, probably, but that's expected as it's mostly set in the US.

    You said it yourself: American cast, mostly set in the US. I'd add a minimal British presence in the story, and tropes extremely common in American action movies at the time.

    Same with LALD.

    Many Americans cast, American locations, Bond drinking Bourbon, Blaxploitation/French Connection feel yet not stigmatised the way LTK is.

    LALD is a fan favorite, but I don't quite understand why. It certainly didn't feel like a Bond movie, so it should be in the "controversial films" category.
  • Posts: 15,597
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Bond's Britishness is definitely there in the films, even the recent ones. You get villains calling him a 'loyal terrier' or rolling their eyes at the 'empire', and of course Bond acknowledges he does his duty out of a sense of loyalty to Monarch and Country. I'd argue you can't really take that element away from the Bond films without something feeling off, but I don't think it'll get anymore nationalistic than that. I agree that Heyman especially should be capable of balancing that sense of Britishness with a broadly appealing blockbuster.

    Not sure one can cite 'King and Country' without being nationalistic.

    It's why LTK deserves more and more plaudits. Bond is motivated personally, rather than out of some toneless nationalistic fervour.

    Bond's character isn't contingent upon nationalism.

    Insofar as the specific story can give Bond any motivation, even a personal one, I suppose... But a film like LTK is rare in the Bond series, and ultimately he's not an anti-hero: his job is to get sent on missions for the British Government or act in their interests. If he doesn't have some sort of higher sense of duty I don't think it's quite the same character.

    I would also say nationalistic and patriotic are slightly different things, or at least potentially can be. With Bond as a character it can be an important distinction.

    That's actually one thing I always disliked about LTK: not British enough. It feels like Bond is making a long cameo in an American action movue.

    All Bond movies are American (Broccoli/Saltzman). LTK gets Bond out of his comfort zone
    and features a solitary London scene, in which Moneypenny essentially saves the day.

    We get a red double decker, too, just in case the intended American audience don't realise where it is.

    I know they're "American" in that sense (that said, Harry Saltzman was Canadian), but the series is British icon. You don't feel it so much in LTK, it's very American centric and a double decker bus in a single shot of a very brief scene doesn't really cut it for me.

    A quite British phenomenon, insofar it gained traction thanks to Americana. Fleming's novels took off whenever JFK rated FRWL.

    Still unsure why LTK is particularly 'American centric' any more than another entry.

    American cast, probably, but that's expected as it's mostly set in the US.

    You said it yourself: American cast, mostly set in the US. I'd add a minimal British presence in the story, and tropes extremely common in American action movies at the time.

    Same with LALD.

    Many Americans cast, American locations, Bond drinking Bourbon, Blaxploitation/French Connection feel yet not stigmatised the way LTK is.

    LALD is a fan favorite, but I don't quite understand why. It certainly didn't feel like a Bond movie, so it should be in the "controversial films" category.

    I suspect it has a lot to do with it being Moore's first. But, while it has many flaws, I do like it, mostly because of its low key atmosphere.
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 290
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Bond's Britishness is definitely there in the films, even the recent ones. You get villains calling him a 'loyal terrier' or rolling their eyes at the 'empire', and of course Bond acknowledges he does his duty out of a sense of loyalty to Monarch and Country. I'd argue you can't really take that element away from the Bond films without something feeling off, but I don't think it'll get anymore nationalistic than that. I agree that Heyman especially should be capable of balancing that sense of Britishness with a broadly appealing blockbuster.

    Not sure one can cite 'King and Country' without being nationalistic.

    It's why LTK deserves more and more plaudits. Bond is motivated personally, rather than out of some toneless nationalistic fervour.

    Bond's character isn't contingent upon nationalism.

    Insofar as the specific story can give Bond any motivation, even a personal one, I suppose... But a film like LTK is rare in the Bond series, and ultimately he's not an anti-hero: his job is to get sent on missions for the British Government or act in their interests. If he doesn't have some sort of higher sense of duty I don't think it's quite the same character.

    I would also say nationalistic and patriotic are slightly different things, or at least potentially can be. With Bond as a character it can be an important distinction.

    That's actually one thing I always disliked about LTK: not British enough. It feels like Bond is making a long cameo in an American action movue.

    All Bond movies are American (Broccoli/Saltzman). LTK gets Bond out of his comfort zone
    and features a solitary London scene, in which Moneypenny essentially saves the day.

    We get a red double decker, too, just in case the intended American audience don't realise where it is.

    I know they're "American" in that sense (that said, Harry Saltzman was Canadian), but the series is British icon. You don't feel it so much in LTK, it's very American centric and a double decker bus in a single shot of a very brief scene doesn't really cut it for me.

    A quite British phenomenon, insofar it gained traction thanks to Americana. Fleming's novels took off whenever JFK rated FRWL.

    Still unsure why LTK is particularly 'American centric' any more than another entry.

    American cast, probably, but that's expected as it's mostly set in the US.

    You said it yourself: American cast, mostly set in the US. I'd add a minimal British presence in the story, and tropes extremely common in American action movies at the time.

    Same with LALD.

    Many Americans cast, American locations, Bond drinking Bourbon, Blaxploitation/French Connection feel yet not stigmatised the way LTK is.

    Whattaboutism. LALD and DAF are also very American (too much for my taste), but at least LALD has MI6 directly involved early on (DAF too, I guess, but I'm really not a fan of this one and it has many more problems). I don't think LTK is stigmatised, it has its detractors, but also many fans.

    One of LtK's central criticism is it's 'not Bond enough' due to its 'American' edge.

    It's worth remembering many Bond films follow this path without the criticism.

    DAF, LALD and AVTAK have all been criticised as "too American", here and elsewhere. Even GF gets sometimes criticised for its part in Kentucky (overlong, tacky, clichéed). So it's not something proper to LTK. But for LTK, it has more to do, at least for me, with the common tropes of American action movies at the time (personal vendetta against a drug lord, the hero operating without governmental sanction, etc).

    Mostly, the same tropes occur in the other 'American' Bond films, too.

    LTK isn't the first or last contemporaneous Bond film, but it does get the most stick.

    And other "American" Bond films get criticised for it too. I'm not sure LTK gets the most stick, not in this forum anyway.

    Not to the extent LTK does. It's usually castigated for being 'American', especially outside this forum.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,589
    I know LTK gets panned (rightfully), for cheap looking sets that were shot terribly (making it look sitcom-level in the early parts of the film), and gets little taps on the wrist for trying to compete with the Die Hards and Lethal Weapons of the day (even poaching Kamen to score the film), but I haven't seen excessive criticisms of it for being too American (?).

    Some of the stunts in this film, from the PTS lets-go-fishing, to the underwater battle/waterskiing behind a plane, to the tanker chase climax (thank you Ms. Broccoli), are some of the most celebrated of the series.

    If anything, I remember people back in 89-90 saying how dour and too serious and too un-Bond-like they felt Dalton was (I personally loved the portrayal, and even today I think and Davi and he are perfect foils (I believe Davi elevated Dalton)).
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 290
    peter wrote: »
    I know LTK gets panned (rightfully), for cheap looking sets that were shot terribly (making it look sitcom-level in the early parts of the film), and gets little taps on the wrist for trying to compete with the Die Hards and Lethal Weapons of the day (even poaching Kamen to score the film), but I haven't seen excessive criticisms of it for being too American (?).

    Some of the stunts in this film, from the PTS lets-go-fishing, to the underwater battle/waterskiing behind a plane, to the tanker chase climax (thank you Ms. Broccoli), are some of the most celebrated of the series.

    If anything, I remember people back in 89-90 saying how dour and too serious and too un-Bond-like they felt Dalton was (I personally loved the portrayal, and even today I think and Davi and he are perfect foils (I believe Davi elevated Dalton)).

    Your first paragraph explains the 'American' criticism neatly.

    Paragraph two is apt, but the stunts in this film are usually lost on people who think 'it isn't Bond' and compare it unfavourably to contemporary American films of the era.
  • Posts: 15,597
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Bond's Britishness is definitely there in the films, even the recent ones. You get villains calling him a 'loyal terrier' or rolling their eyes at the 'empire', and of course Bond acknowledges he does his duty out of a sense of loyalty to Monarch and Country. I'd argue you can't really take that element away from the Bond films without something feeling off, but I don't think it'll get anymore nationalistic than that. I agree that Heyman especially should be capable of balancing that sense of Britishness with a broadly appealing blockbuster.

    Not sure one can cite 'King and Country' without being nationalistic.

    It's why LTK deserves more and more plaudits. Bond is motivated personally, rather than out of some toneless nationalistic fervour.

    Bond's character isn't contingent upon nationalism.

    Insofar as the specific story can give Bond any motivation, even a personal one, I suppose... But a film like LTK is rare in the Bond series, and ultimately he's not an anti-hero: his job is to get sent on missions for the British Government or act in their interests. If he doesn't have some sort of higher sense of duty I don't think it's quite the same character.

    I would also say nationalistic and patriotic are slightly different things, or at least potentially can be. With Bond as a character it can be an important distinction.

    That's actually one thing I always disliked about LTK: not British enough. It feels like Bond is making a long cameo in an American action movue.

    All Bond movies are American (Broccoli/Saltzman). LTK gets Bond out of his comfort zone
    and features a solitary London scene, in which Moneypenny essentially saves the day.

    We get a red double decker, too, just in case the intended American audience don't realise where it is.

    I know they're "American" in that sense (that said, Harry Saltzman was Canadian), but the series is British icon. You don't feel it so much in LTK, it's very American centric and a double decker bus in a single shot of a very brief scene doesn't really cut it for me.

    A quite British phenomenon, insofar it gained traction thanks to Americana. Fleming's novels took off whenever JFK rated FRWL.

    Still unsure why LTK is particularly 'American centric' any more than another entry.

    American cast, probably, but that's expected as it's mostly set in the US.

    You said it yourself: American cast, mostly set in the US. I'd add a minimal British presence in the story, and tropes extremely common in American action movies at the time.

    Same with LALD.

    Many Americans cast, American locations, Bond drinking Bourbon, Blaxploitation/French Connection feel yet not stigmatised the way LTK is.

    Whattaboutism. LALD and DAF are also very American (too much for my taste), but at least LALD has MI6 directly involved early on (DAF too, I guess, but I'm really not a fan of this one and it has many more problems). I don't think LTK is stigmatised, it has its detractors, but also many fans.

    One of LtK's central criticism is it's 'not Bond enough' due to its 'American' edge.

    It's worth remembering many Bond films follow this path without the criticism.

    DAF, LALD and AVTAK have all been criticised as "too American", here and elsewhere. Even GF gets sometimes criticised for its part in Kentucky (overlong, tacky, clichéed). So it's not something proper to LTK. But for LTK, it has more to do, at least for me, with the common tropes of American action movies at the time (personal vendetta against a drug lord, the hero operating without governmental sanction, etc).

    Mostly, the same tropes occur in the other 'American' Bond films, too.

    LTK isn't the first or last contemporaneous Bond film, but it does get the most stick.

    And other "American" Bond films get criticised for it too. I'm not sure LTK gets the most stick, not in this forum anyway.

    Not to the extent LTK does. It's usually castigated for being 'American', especially outside this forum.

    Not sure how you can quantify it. DAF is probably more criticised overall, although its "Americanism" is only one small flaw among many bigger ones. Same with AVTAK: I'd wholeheartedly agree that too much time is spent in the US, but that's only one problem the movie has. LALD, like I said, probably gets a free pass because of Roger Moore, a Bond actor far more appreciated among the general public as Dalton.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,778
    Slightly off topic, but I find the DAF, LALD and TMWTGG are perfect time capsules of the 70s. Between their wardrobe, settings and style they are of their time. Spy, MR have less of a 70's feel to them maybe because a Ken Adam set has a timeless feel.

    For Bond being patriotic. To me he should be. Though it is interesting how the character in the last 25 years has become someone who will openly defy orders. Can one be patriotic if you are going against what your superior in British Intelligence wants? I do long for the days when Bond got a mission and saw it through. Maybe with a stern talking to if he bungled it. Apparently that is not complex enough for movie audiences and so our hero must defy orders of the out of touch boss.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 14,396
    thedove wrote: »
    .
    For Bond being patriotic. To me he should be. Though it is interesting how the character in the last 25 years has become someone who will openly defy orders. Can one be patriotic if you are going against what your superior in British Intelligence wants?
    Absolutely, yes.

    Bond and civil servants may choose to do the right thing, in contradiction of their own boss. In spite of them, even. It's their duty.

  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 290
    thedove wrote: »
    .
    For Bond being patriotic. To me he should be. Though it is interesting how the character in the last 25 years has become someone who will openly defy orders. Can one be patriotic if you are going against what your superior in British Intelligence wants?
    Absolutely, yes.

    Bond and civil servants may choose to do the right thing, in contradiction of their own boss. In spite of them, even. It's their duty.

    Bond should act accordingly to doing the right thing, not 'the British thing'.

    Some films merge the notion. It gets ugly.
  • Posts: 15,597
    thedove wrote: »
    Slightly off topic, but I find the DAF, LALD and TMWTGG are perfect time capsules of the 70s. Between their wardrobe, settings and style they are of their time. Spy, MR have less of a 70's feel to them maybe because a Ken Adam set has a timeless feel.

    For Bond being patriotic. To me he should be. Though it is interesting how the character in the last 25 years has become someone who will openly defy orders. Can one be patriotic if you are going against what your superior in British Intelligence wants? I do long for the days when Bond got a mission and saw it through. Maybe with a stern talking to if he bungled it. Apparently that is not complex enough for movie audiences and so our hero must defy orders of the out of touch boss.

    I guess nowadays there's a certain distrust and contempt towards institutions that has influenced many genre movies. It's an era of mavericks and freelancers, where people of rank are perceived as pesky bureaucrats at best, incompetent legalists at worst.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 14,396
    For me the right thing isn't mutually exclusive from the British thing. Or the American thing.

    Bond has always been pretty much the red-headed stepchild not going along with the bureaucrats. That won't change.

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