Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • edited June 14 Posts: 1,766
    mtm wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    I liked Safin's look and the opening scene with him in, he just didn't get enough screen time to do much. NTTD had too much to do and I think he was a casualty.

    His motivations and the attack on the island were a muddled mess of logic at best. What did he want? Why did he take Matilde just let her go a moment later? Couldn't the arriving cargo ships be stopped before or after they reached the island, etc? It was more than a lack of screen time.

    I've never really had a problem with that stuff. I know 'he's mad' isn't very satisfying, but he wants people to die because he is very damaged. There's a bit of a hint that he's into eugenics with the 'I want the world to evolve!' stuff, but otherwise we know he just wants to kill people.
    He wants Matilde as a sort of trophy but when she turns trouble he just dumps her: he doesn't care about her either way.
    As for blowing up the boats, I guess M has enough of a diplomatic situation on his hands already what with firing on a Chinese island; when they don't know whose their boats are, when they might even belong to other foreign powers, then they avoid more possible wars by destroying the island before they get there.

    For me "He's mad" never cuts it. Does he want people to evolve or does he want to kill them? Relying on hints, therein lays the mess. "Sort" of a trophy? It looked like she was a "Hostage Deterrent" at first........then????? Still confusion. M doesn't have to blow up the boats, just stop them. Where are the ships going after they leave the island and how long would it have taken to get there. Would they end up in international waters where they could certainly be stopped. The ship arrivals are simply not a good "race against the clock" element to trigger an attack on the island. Still feels like a mess to me. To keep this on topic, I just hope the next film is more tightly written than the last few films.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited June 14 Posts: 9,048
    mtm wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    I liked Safin's look and the opening scene with him in, he just didn't get enough screen time to do much. NTTD had too much to do and I think he was a casualty.

    His motivations and the attack on the island were a muddled mess of logic at best. What did he want? Why did he take Matilde just let her go a moment later? Couldn't the arriving cargo ships be stopped before or after they reached the island, etc? It was more than a lack of screen time.

    I've never really had a problem with that stuff. I know 'he's mad' isn't very satisfying, but he wants people to die because he is very damaged. There's a bit of a hint that he's into eugenics with the 'I want the world to evolve!' stuff, but otherwise we know he just wants to kill people.
    He wants Matilde as a sort of trophy but when she turns trouble he just dumps her: he doesn't care about her either way.
    As for blowing up the boats, I guess M has enough of a diplomatic situation on his hands already what with firing on a Chinese island; when they don't know whose their boats are, when they might even belong to other foreign powers, then they avoid more possible wars by destroying the island before they get there.

    Yeah, this was all pretty clear. I’ve never had to figure out what was going on. It’s up there on the screen. There’s nothing overly complex and/or muddled. It’s simple: Safin is quite mentally ill. He can wax poetic about changing the world, but he wants to lash out by watching this poison wreak havoc and murder.

    And exactly, Mathilde was a nice little trophy for him, until she had the audacity to bite him. He even gives her a last stare and shrug as he watches her run away— he’s got bigger concerns…

    And as for stopping the ships— M was up to his knees in trouble. He was submitting to James Bond at this point to blow the whole thing up from the inside of this factory, and stop Safin’s plan.

    (It’s a Bond movie. Keep it simple, 😂)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 14 Posts: 15,580
    delfloria wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    I liked Safin's look and the opening scene with him in, he just didn't get enough screen time to do much. NTTD had too much to do and I think he was a casualty.

    His motivations and the attack on the island were a muddled mess of logic at best. What did he want? Why did he take Matilde just let her go a moment later? Couldn't the arriving cargo ships be stopped before or after they reached the island, etc? It was more than a lack of screen time.

    I've never really had a problem with that stuff. I know 'he's mad' isn't very satisfying, but he wants people to die because he is very damaged. There's a bit of a hint that he's into eugenics with the 'I want the world to evolve!' stuff, but otherwise we know he just wants to kill people.
    He wants Matilde as a sort of trophy but when she turns trouble he just dumps her: he doesn't care about her either way.
    As for blowing up the boats, I guess M has enough of a diplomatic situation on his hands already what with firing on a Chinese island; when they don't know whose their boats are, when they might even belong to other foreign powers, then they avoid more possible wars by destroying the island before they get there.

    For me "He's mad" never cuts it. Does he want people to evolve or does he want to kill them? Relying on hints, therein lays the mess.

    Well I hadn't even spotted the eugenics thing before replying to you to be honest, I was always content with the 'he wants to kill' thing. It's kind of built into the entire film: he initially wants revenge at all costs, enough to come very close to murdering an innocent child right before the credits, and from there he just goes on killing... he's kind of the closest the Bond films have come to having a serial killer as the main villain. He just wants to kill. The reasons for why he's so damaged are clearly established by the film.
    delfloria wrote: »
    "Sort" of a trophy? It looked like she was a "Hostage Deterrent" at first........then?????

    Hence why he's not that bothered about keeping her. He toys with the idea, but as he was never that bothered about keeping her, he lets her go.
    delfloria wrote: »
    Still confusion. M doesn't have to blow up the boats, just stop them. Where are the ships going after they leave the island and how long would it have taken to get there. Would they end up in international waters where they could certainly be stopped.

    Would they? I don't know; how would M know that, given he doesn't who they are or where they're going? How would the Royal Navy have the power to stop and board ships potentially belonging to hostile foreign powers? Again, that's war kicking off right there. It's made very clear it's their last chance to contain Heracles: even the slightest chance of it getting off that island is unacceptable. That's why Bond has to be destroyed right there.
    It's all quite tightly written.
  • Posts: 1,766
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    I liked Safin's look and the opening scene with him in, he just didn't get enough screen time to do much. NTTD had too much to do and I think he was a casualty.

    His motivations and the attack on the island were a muddled mess of logic at best. What did he want? Why did he take Matilde just let her go a moment later? Couldn't the arriving cargo ships be stopped before or after they reached the island, etc? It was more than a lack of screen time.

    I've never really had a problem with that stuff. I know 'he's mad' isn't very satisfying, but he wants people to die because he is very damaged. There's a bit of a hint that he's into eugenics with the 'I want the world to evolve!' stuff, but otherwise we know he just wants to kill people.
    He wants Matilde as a sort of trophy but when she turns trouble he just dumps her: he doesn't care about her either way.
    As for blowing up the boats, I guess M has enough of a diplomatic situation on his hands already what with firing on a Chinese island; when they don't know whose their boats are, when they might even belong to other foreign powers, then they avoid more possible wars by destroying the island before they get there.

    Yeah, this was all pretty clear. I’ve never had to figure out what was going on. It’s up there on the screen. There’s nothing overly complex and/or muddled. It’s simple: Safin is quite mentally ill. He can wax poetic about changing the world, but he wants to lash out by watching this poison wreak havoc and murder.

    And exactly, Mathilde was a nice little trophy for him, until she had the audacity to bite him. He even gives her a last stare and shrug as he watches her run away— he’s got bigger concerns…

    And as for stopping the ships— M was up to his knees in trouble. He was submitting to James Bond at this point to blow the whole thing up from the inside of this factory, and stop Safin’s plan.

    (It’s a Bond movie. Keep it simple, 😂)

    This will be fun.

    OK, you are confirming he is just mad. Therefore ANY action he takes at any time is justifiable. I don't think that is a wise way to develop a character's motivations (unless you are the Joker or Michael Meyers). Matihilde is presented in the action as a deterrent from Bond attacking him as Safin goes about his plot and not just a trophy (though she could be considered a trophy as well). I have no defense against his later actions if you are going to hit me with "he's mad" therefore irrational, therefore nothing makes any sense. Safin does have bigger concerns and for him to achieve that he will need Matilde in tow to keep Bond at bay. If he's mad I guess that doesn't matter. The problem is not M taking Bond's suggestion to heart about blowing up the island, it's that Bond makes the suggestion in the first place.

    At least that's my take on it. I still think the last few films had serious problems with the stories which include the foster brothers angle, Bond's brain being drilled into with no after effects or Bond stabbing Silva in the back. Just hoping for something that suits my tastes more the next time around.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited June 14 Posts: 9,048
    delfloria wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    I liked Safin's look and the opening scene with him in, he just didn't get enough screen time to do much. NTTD had too much to do and I think he was a casualty.

    His motivations and the attack on the island were a muddled mess of logic at best. What did he want? Why did he take Matilde just let her go a moment later? Couldn't the arriving cargo ships be stopped before or after they reached the island, etc? It was more than a lack of screen time.

    I've never really had a problem with that stuff. I know 'he's mad' isn't very satisfying, but he wants people to die because he is very damaged. There's a bit of a hint that he's into eugenics with the 'I want the world to evolve!' stuff, but otherwise we know he just wants to kill people.
    He wants Matilde as a sort of trophy but when she turns trouble he just dumps her: he doesn't care about her either way.
    As for blowing up the boats, I guess M has enough of a diplomatic situation on his hands already what with firing on a Chinese island; when they don't know whose their boats are, when they might even belong to other foreign powers, then they avoid more possible wars by destroying the island before they get there.

    Yeah, this was all pretty clear. I’ve never had to figure out what was going on. It’s up there on the screen. There’s nothing overly complex and/or muddled. It’s simple: Safin is quite mentally ill. He can wax poetic about changing the world, but he wants to lash out by watching this poison wreak havoc and murder.

    And exactly, Mathilde was a nice little trophy for him, until she had the audacity to bite him. He even gives her a last stare and shrug as he watches her run away— he’s got bigger concerns…

    And as for stopping the ships— M was up to his knees in trouble. He was submitting to James Bond at this point to blow the whole thing up from the inside of this factory, and stop Safin’s plan.

    (It’s a Bond movie. Keep it simple, 😂)

    This will be fun.

    OK, you are confirming he is just mad. Therefore ANY action he takes at any time is justifiable. I don't think that is a wise way to develop a character's motivations (unless you are the Joker or Michael Meyers). Matihilde is presented in the action as a deterrent from Bond attacking him as Safin goes about his plot and not just a trophy (though she could be considered a trophy as well). I have no defense against his later actions if you are going to hit me with "he's mad" therefore irrational, therefore nothing makes any sense. Safin does have bigger concerns and for him to achieve that he will need Matilde in tow to keep Bond at bay. If he's mad I guess that doesn't matter. The problem is not M taking Bond's suggestion to heart about blowing up the island, it's that Bond makes the suggestion in the first place.

    At least that's my take on it. I still think the last few films had serious problems with the stories which include the foster brothers angle, Bond's brain being drilled into with no after effects or Bond stabbing Silva in the back. Just hoping for something that suits my tastes more the next time around.

    Ok… you’re entitled to all your thoughts (and I actually don’t see your NTTD Safin summary (above), too far removed from anything I said; I also got the very strong sense, from my first viewing of NTTD, that Safin’s a mentally ill incel. He fell in love with a young girl, and kept that love burning for at least two decades. The guy is mad!

    I actually didn’t think about this next point until @mtm brought it up: he IS the closest big bad in Bond films who is a legit serial killer. I’ll be watching NTTD on Father’s Day with my kids, so I’ll be thinking about this concept (and my gut feels mtm hit something here)…

    As far as the drilling in the head bit, I didn’t like; nor Brofeld. But I could go through every Bond picture from the beginning and pick out whole chunks that made no sense, or ruffled my feathers. I mean, I’ve admitted: most of the entire Brosnan era just wasn’t up my alley. I have a very tough time liking these films as a whole (although I don’t hold a grudge against EoN or the creatives for this: it’s what the market was calling for and they were remarkably successful. And Brosnan, my least favourite Bond, did a commendable job leading these films into box office smashes. But none of it clicked for me. So if you didn’t like the last three Craig films, i can at least emphasize, while at the same time, I can admit that it has become my favourite era with the 60s, and; Craig has become my all time number one Bond actor BECAUSE of NTTD, knocking King Connery into my second spot.).

    So there’s no battle from me. You like what you like. And the same for what you don’t. It’s all fair, 😂
  • mtm wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    I liked Safin's look and the opening scene with him in, he just didn't get enough screen time to do much. NTTD had too much to do and I think he was a casualty.

    His motivations and the attack on the island were a muddled mess of logic at best. What did he want? Why did he take Matilde just let her go a moment later? Couldn't the arriving cargo ships be stopped before or after they reached the island, etc? It was more than a lack of screen time.

    I've never really had a problem with that stuff. I know 'he's mad' isn't very satisfying, but he wants people to die because he is very damaged. There's a bit of a hint that he's into eugenics with the 'I want the world to evolve!' stuff, but otherwise we know he just wants to kill people.
    He wants Matilde as a sort of trophy but when she turns trouble he just dumps her: he doesn't care about her either way.
    As for blowing up the boats, I guess M has enough of a diplomatic situation on his hands already what with firing on a Chinese island; when they don't know whose their boats are, when they might even belong to other foreign powers, then they avoid more possible wars by destroying the island before they get there.

    For me "He's mad" never cuts it. Does he want people to evolve or does he want to kill them? Relying on hints, therein lays the mess.

    Well I hadn't even spotted the eugenics thing before replying to you to be honest, I was always content with the 'he wants to kill' thing. It's kind of built into the entire film: he initially wants revenge at all costs, enough to come very close to murdering an innocent child right before the credits, and from there he just goes on killing... he's kind of the closest the Bond films have come to having a serial killer as the main villain. He just wants to kill. The reasons for why he's so damaged are clearly established by the film.
    delfloria wrote: »
    "Sort" of a trophy? It looked like she was a "Hostage Deterrent" at first........then?????

    Hence why he's not that bothered about keeping her. He toys with the idea, but as he was never that bothered about keeping her, he lets her go.
    delfloria wrote: »
    Still confusion. M doesn't have to blow up the boats, just stop them. Where are the ships going after they leave the island and how long would it have taken to get there. Would they end up in international waters where they could certainly be stopped.

    Would they? I don't know; how would M know that, given he doesn't who they are or where they're going? How would the Royal Navy have the power to stop and board ships potentially belonging to hostile foreign powers? Again, that's war kicking off right there. It's made very clear it's their last chance to contain Heracles: even the slightest chance of it getting off that island is unacceptable. That's why Bond has to be destroyed right there.
    It's all quite tightly written.

    1. Safin isn't shown to be a serial killer? Rather he kills indiscriminately in revenge. He doesn't show any interest in killing anybody else until his plot shows up. From what I remember, he never shows joy in killing: he always does it in terms of righting wrongs.
    2. If Safin believes in eugenics, then he'd use the virus himself to ween out the people that he doesn't think are worthy. (Or give it off to someone who shares his beliefs). Selling it to foreign governments with no interest in eugenics doesn't really further his agenda. Because China/Russia would be using that sort of thing to kill dissidents.
    3. Safin being "mad" doesn't mean anything about his motivations. Mad people still have reasons, it's just that their reasons are misguided or get something terribly wrong about the world.
    4. I believe Mathilde more than just a hostage: Safin clearly has an obsession with all things Madeleine, so Mathilde is something that he wants for himself. By just letting her go, he sort of loses not only a hostage but his chances at being with Madeleine. Never mind that he could just hand her off to a guard and be done with it.
    5. Stopping the ships wouldn't cause war as the offending countries would surely be in violation of the Biological Weapons Convention (the only countries not on that could be behind such a thing would be Israel, Egypt or Syria, but the latter two have signed and not ratified). And anyway, I don't see the difference between bombing the island, and bombing the ships, especially in what are Russian/Japanese waters.

    Another thing not discussed that irks me very much (accepting all the "nanobots" and their invincibility and such) is the fact that Bond goes alone for the assignment. Nomi is not the type to back down with this sort of thing: and surely it makes more sense to send the man off with his family? At least send them both to the island.
  • Posts: 2,155
    My only big issue with regards to NTTD’s writing is how Mallory is portrayed. To have him be responsible for the creation of Hercules makes him seem a bit hypocritical considering how he was chastising Dench’s M for similar “carelessness” back in Skyfall.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 15 Posts: 15,580
    mtm wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    I liked Safin's look and the opening scene with him in, he just didn't get enough screen time to do much. NTTD had too much to do and I think he was a casualty.

    His motivations and the attack on the island were a muddled mess of logic at best. What did he want? Why did he take Matilde just let her go a moment later? Couldn't the arriving cargo ships be stopped before or after they reached the island, etc? It was more than a lack of screen time.

    I've never really had a problem with that stuff. I know 'he's mad' isn't very satisfying, but he wants people to die because he is very damaged. There's a bit of a hint that he's into eugenics with the 'I want the world to evolve!' stuff, but otherwise we know he just wants to kill people.
    He wants Matilde as a sort of trophy but when she turns trouble he just dumps her: he doesn't care about her either way.
    As for blowing up the boats, I guess M has enough of a diplomatic situation on his hands already what with firing on a Chinese island; when they don't know whose their boats are, when they might even belong to other foreign powers, then they avoid more possible wars by destroying the island before they get there.

    For me "He's mad" never cuts it. Does he want people to evolve or does he want to kill them? Relying on hints, therein lays the mess.

    Well I hadn't even spotted the eugenics thing before replying to you to be honest, I was always content with the 'he wants to kill' thing. It's kind of built into the entire film: he initially wants revenge at all costs, enough to come very close to murdering an innocent child right before the credits, and from there he just goes on killing... he's kind of the closest the Bond films have come to having a serial killer as the main villain. He just wants to kill. The reasons for why he's so damaged are clearly established by the film.
    delfloria wrote: »
    "Sort" of a trophy? It looked like she was a "Hostage Deterrent" at first........then?????

    Hence why he's not that bothered about keeping her. He toys with the idea, but as he was never that bothered about keeping her, he lets her go.
    delfloria wrote: »
    Still confusion. M doesn't have to blow up the boats, just stop them. Where are the ships going after they leave the island and how long would it have taken to get there. Would they end up in international waters where they could certainly be stopped.

    Would they? I don't know; how would M know that, given he doesn't who they are or where they're going? How would the Royal Navy have the power to stop and board ships potentially belonging to hostile foreign powers? Again, that's war kicking off right there. It's made very clear it's their last chance to contain Heracles: even the slightest chance of it getting off that island is unacceptable. That's why Bond has to be destroyed right there.
    It's all quite tightly written.

    1. Safin isn't shown to be a serial killer? Rather he kills indiscriminately in revenge. He doesn't show any interest in killing anybody else until his plot shows up. From what I remember, he never shows joy in killing: he always does it in terms of righting wrongs.

    Sure. But he kills so much it seems to lose meaning for him.
    2. If Safin believes in eugenics, then he'd use the virus himself to ween out the people that he doesn't think are worthy. (Or give it off to someone who shares his beliefs). Selling it to foreign governments with no interest in eugenics doesn't really further his agenda. Because China/Russia would be using that sort of thing to kill dissidents.

    Yeah, it's unclear whether he truly believes or not. I'd suggest he doesn't as he barely mentions it: I think his goal is to make cash through selling weapons (not exactly the first Bond villain to profit in death) to those who would aim for eugenics, perhaps more people like Valdo; but that seems more just a secondary objective to him: he just wants to kill people. And for all those who loved the idea of Blofeld's garden of death featuring in a movie, doesn't that seem quite Fleming? What was the point of the garden otherwise?
    3. Safin being "mad" doesn't mean anything about his motivations. Mad people still have reasons, it's just that their reasons are misguided or get something terribly wrong about the world.

    Yeah, that's what we get. We are shown his reasons for being damaged and his progression through that.
    4. I believe Mathilde more than just a hostage: Safin clearly has an obsession with all things Madeleine, so Mathilde is something that he wants for himself. By just letting her go, he sort of loses not only a hostage but his chances at being with Madeleine. Never mind that he could just hand her off to a guard and be done with it.

    Sure, but I feel like he feels he's connected to Madeline, but it's not real love. It's his twisted idea of it, and it isn't real. So as soon as it doesn't suit him he literally drops it.
    5. Stopping the ships wouldn't cause war as the offending countries would surely be in violation of the Biological Weapons Convention (the only countries not on that could be behind such a thing would be Israel, Egypt or Syria, but the latter two have signed and not ratified). And anyway, I don't see the difference between bombing the island, and bombing the ships, especially in what are Russian/Japanese waters.

    Again, the risk of Heracles escaping the island in any form isn't worth taking. It gets on a ship; the chances of it getting into the open with no control increase; millions die. You listed some countries who might not be on the list- again, if it is them, millions die. Being in violation of a treaty isn't the same as adhering to it- again, millions die. Do you gamble with millions of lives? The simplest solution in every way is to bomb the island before they get there.
    And the difference between the bombing the island and the ships is: you might start a war with many different countries rather than just the one you are actually bombing.

    My only big issue with regards to NTTD’s writing is how Mallory is portrayed. To have him be responsible for the creation of Hercules makes him seem a bit hypocritical considering how he was chastising Dench’s M for similar “carelessness” back in Skyfall.

    Yep, it does. He's shown to be at fault.


  • mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    I liked Safin's look and the opening scene with him in, he just didn't get enough screen time to do much. NTTD had too much to do and I think he was a casualty.

    His motivations and the attack on the island were a muddled mess of logic at best. What did he want? Why did he take Matilde just let her go a moment later? Couldn't the arriving cargo ships be stopped before or after they reached the island, etc? It was more than a lack of screen time.

    I've never really had a problem with that stuff. I know 'he's mad' isn't very satisfying, but he wants people to die because he is very damaged. There's a bit of a hint that he's into eugenics with the 'I want the world to evolve!' stuff, but otherwise we know he just wants to kill people.
    He wants Matilde as a sort of trophy but when she turns trouble he just dumps her: he doesn't care about her either way.
    As for blowing up the boats, I guess M has enough of a diplomatic situation on his hands already what with firing on a Chinese island; when they don't know whose their boats are, when they might even belong to other foreign powers, then they avoid more possible wars by destroying the island before they get there.

    For me "He's mad" never cuts it. Does he want people to evolve or does he want to kill them? Relying on hints, therein lays the mess.

    Well I hadn't even spotted the eugenics thing before replying to you to be honest, I was always content with the 'he wants to kill' thing. It's kind of built into the entire film: he initially wants revenge at all costs, enough to come very close to murdering an innocent child right before the credits, and from there he just goes on killing... he's kind of the closest the Bond films have come to having a serial killer as the main villain. He just wants to kill. The reasons for why he's so damaged are clearly established by the film.
    delfloria wrote: »
    "Sort" of a trophy? It looked like she was a "Hostage Deterrent" at first........then?????

    Hence why he's not that bothered about keeping her. He toys with the idea, but as he was never that bothered about keeping her, he lets her go.
    delfloria wrote: »
    Still confusion. M doesn't have to blow up the boats, just stop them. Where are the ships going after they leave the island and how long would it have taken to get there. Would they end up in international waters where they could certainly be stopped.

    Would they? I don't know; how would M know that, given he doesn't who they are or where they're going? How would the Royal Navy have the power to stop and board ships potentially belonging to hostile foreign powers? Again, that's war kicking off right there. It's made very clear it's their last chance to contain Heracles: even the slightest chance of it getting off that island is unacceptable. That's why Bond has to be destroyed right there.
    It's all quite tightly written.

    1. Safin isn't shown to be a serial killer? Rather he kills indiscriminately in revenge. He doesn't show any interest in killing anybody else until his plot shows up. From what I remember, he never shows joy in killing: he always does it in terms of righting wrongs.

    Sure. But he kills so much it seems to lose meaning for him.
    2. If Safin believes in eugenics, then he'd use the virus himself to ween out the people that he doesn't think are worthy. (Or give it off to someone who shares his beliefs). Selling it to foreign governments with no interest in eugenics doesn't really further his agenda. Because China/Russia would be using that sort of thing to kill dissidents.

    Yeah, it's unclear whether he truly believes or not. I'd suggest he doesn't as he barely mentions it: I think his goal is to make cash through selling weapons (not exactly the first Bond villain to profit in death) to those who would aim for eugenics, perhaps more people like Valdo; but that seems more just a secondary objective to him: he just wants to kill people. And for all those who loved the idea of Blofeld's garden of death featuring in a movie, doesn't that seem quite Fleming? What was the point of the garden otherwise?
    3. Safin being "mad" doesn't mean anything about his motivations. Mad people still have reasons, it's just that their reasons are misguided or get something terribly wrong about the world.

    Yeah, that's what we get. We are shown his reasons for being damaged and his progression through that.
    4. I believe Mathilde more than just a hostage: Safin clearly has an obsession with all things Madeleine, so Mathilde is something that he wants for himself. By just letting her go, he sort of loses not only a hostage but his chances at being with Madeleine. Never mind that he could just hand her off to a guard and be done with it.

    Sure, but I feel like he feels he's connected to Madeline, but it's not real love. It's his twisted idea of it, and it isn't real. So as soon as it doesn't suit him he literally drops it.
    5. Stopping the ships wouldn't cause war as the offending countries would surely be in violation of the Biological Weapons Convention (the only countries not on that could be behind such a thing would be Israel, Egypt or Syria, but the latter two have signed and not ratified). And anyway, I don't see the difference between bombing the island, and bombing the ships, especially in what are Russian/Japanese waters.

    Again, the risk of Heracles escaping the island in any form isn't worth taking. It gets on a ship; the chances of it getting into the open with no control increase; millions die. You listed some countries who might not be on the list- again, if it is them, millions die. Being in violation of a treaty isn't the same as adhering to it- again, millions die. Do you gamble with millions of lives? The simplest solution in every way is to bomb the island before they get there.
    And the difference between the bombing the island and the ships is: you might start a war with many different countries rather than just the one you are actually bombing.

    My only big issue with regards to NTTD’s writing is how Mallory is portrayed. To have him be responsible for the creation of Hercules makes him seem a bit hypocritical considering how he was chastising Dench’s M for similar “carelessness” back in Skyfall.

    Yep, it does. He's shown to be at fault.


    1. I mean this in the sense that Safin doesn't seem to be drawn to killing. He sees it an easy way to get revenge, but doesn't seem to show any interest in killing beyond that. That sort of person doesn't try to kill the world.

    2. The lack of clarity is kind of what I'm trying to point at. I have no clue whether Safin wants to "play god" and pick who lives and dies, or if he's trying to make money off of selling weapons. Doing both just weakens both motivations. As per Blofeld in YOLT, it's been a while since I read YOLT but I don't think the plot is the strongest bit. It's cool and creepy but is bizarre. Anyway, I believe Blofeld has a world-wearinesss and fatigue that can sort of justify this sort of thing.

    3. I meant by this that saying "he's mad" isn't enough of a justification. A justification that is buyable (barely, by the way) is something like "he loves fish a lot because he's mad and he thinks humanity would be better underwater." That's clear in goal on top of Stromberg being mad. Safin is "I want to kill the world to control it, but also relinquish control and sell my idea to foreign governments, because I'm mad."

    4. I don't believe that type of obsessive lover drops their infatuation when it doesn't suit them. In fact when it doesn't suit them they push harder to regain control. Letting go of his infatuation and saying "well, I don't care anymore" is actually the healthiest thing to do in that sort of situation. And considering he had a Swann virus laying about (probably a blackmail tool), I don't think his obsession ended as abruptly as it seemed.

    5. There is no difference to violating and not adhering: even helping another country to get ahold of that sort of weapon violates the treaty. No country can increase their stockpile of these sorts of weapons. And of course this isn't trying to say that all countries follow international law all of the time (the Soviets have of course tried to get round it).
    But if the no-name countries were caught trying to get this sort of thing (which they mostly likely were) then their pants would be down on the world stage (even if non-signers Israel tried it). The UK would be justified in an attack to uphold international law. If you shoot down the boats, you don't gamble with millions of lives. You expel a few diplomats and have the chance to do a proper clean-up operation. Drama sure: but there's the same amount of drama if the Russian/Korean/Chinese/Japanese government see a British missile blowing up an island (and the same drama provoking explanation).
  • Posts: 1,766
    peter wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    I liked Safin's look and the opening scene with him in, he just didn't get enough screen time to do much. NTTD had too much to do and I think he was a casualty.

    His motivations and the attack on the island were a muddled mess of logic at best. What did he want? Why did he take Matilde just let her go a moment later? Couldn't the arriving cargo ships be stopped before or after they reached the island, etc? It was more than a lack of screen time.

    I've never really had a problem with that stuff. I know 'he's mad' isn't very satisfying, but he wants people to die because he is very damaged. There's a bit of a hint that he's into eugenics with the 'I want the world to evolve!' stuff, but otherwise we know he just wants to kill people.
    He wants Matilde as a sort of trophy but when she turns trouble he just dumps her: he doesn't care about her either way.
    As for blowing up the boats, I guess M has enough of a diplomatic situation on his hands already what with firing on a Chinese island; when they don't know whose their boats are, when they might even belong to other foreign powers, then they avoid more possible wars by destroying the island before they get there.

    Yeah, this was all pretty clear. I’ve never had to figure out what was going on. It’s up there on the screen. There’s nothing overly complex and/or muddled. It’s simple: Safin is quite mentally ill. He can wax poetic about changing the world, but he wants to lash out by watching this poison wreak havoc and murder.

    And exactly, Mathilde was a nice little trophy for him, until she had the audacity to bite him. He even gives her a last stare and shrug as he watches her run away— he’s got bigger concerns…

    And as for stopping the ships— M was up to his knees in trouble. He was submitting to James Bond at this point to blow the whole thing up from the inside of this factory, and stop Safin’s plan.

    (It’s a Bond movie. Keep it simple, 😂)

    This will be fun.

    OK, you are confirming he is just mad. Therefore ANY action he takes at any time is justifiable. I don't think that is a wise way to develop a character's motivations (unless you are the Joker or Michael Meyers). Matihilde is presented in the action as a deterrent from Bond attacking him as Safin goes about his plot and not just a trophy (though she could be considered a trophy as well). I have no defense against his later actions if you are going to hit me with "he's mad" therefore irrational, therefore nothing makes any sense. Safin does have bigger concerns and for him to achieve that he will need Matilde in tow to keep Bond at bay. If he's mad I guess that doesn't matter. The problem is not M taking Bond's suggestion to heart about blowing up the island, it's that Bond makes the suggestion in the first place.

    At least that's my take on it. I still think the last few films had serious problems with the stories which include the foster brothers angle, Bond's brain being drilled into with no after effects or Bond stabbing Silva in the back. Just hoping for something that suits my tastes more the next time around.

    Ok… you’re entitled to all your thoughts (and I actually don’t see your NTTD Safin summary (above), too far removed from anything I said; I also got the very strong sense, from my first viewing of NTTD, that Safin’s a mentally ill incel. He fell in love with a young girl, and kept that love burning for at least two decades. The guy is mad!

    I actually didn’t think about this next point until @mtm brought it up: he IS the closest big bad in Bond films who is a legit serial killer. I’ll be watching NTTD on Father’s Day with my kids, so I’ll be thinking about this concept (and my gut feels mtm hit something here)…

    As far as the drilling in the head bit, I didn’t like; nor Brofeld. But I could go through every Bond picture from the beginning and pick out whole chunks that made no sense, or ruffled my feathers. I mean, I’ve admitted: most of the entire Brosnan era just wasn’t up my alley. I have a very tough time liking these films as a whole (although I don’t hold a grudge against EoN or the creatives for this: it’s what the market was calling for and they were remarkably successful. And Brosnan, my least favourite Bond, did a commendable job leading these films into box office smashes. But none of it clicked for me. So if you didn’t like the last three Craig films, i can at least emphasize, while at the same time, I can admit that it has become my favourite era with the 60s, and; Craig has become my all time number one Bond actor BECAUSE of NTTD, knocking King Connery into my second spot.).

    So there’s no battle from me. You like what you like. And the same for what you don’t. It’s all fair, 😂

    All's fair in love and....................well you get the gist. Casino was the only Craig that rocked my boat and then I thought they went astray. I think it has to do more with Campbell than anything else, he just knows how to shape and mold a script into a smooth action film. Zorro being an all time fav.
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Not a red herring
    Posts: 586
    I'm just hoping the next Bond villain isn't another creepy soft-spoken European man.
  • edited June 15 Posts: 3,365
    Must admit, Safin’s motivations don’t work for me either by the end. I like the idea of someone broken and revenge driven who essentially becomes mad/wants to destroy the world, but it never felt plausible for me watching it, and him going on about free will and invisible Gods loses me. Not sure whether it’s to do solely with the dialogue, or if it’s a knock on effect of the character essentially attaining his goal of destroying SPECTRE by the third act and the added element of the buyers/money (which makes it feel like they’ve suddenly done a 180 with his character for some).

    That said I know people on these forums and in the real world who got a lot out of his character, and there’s a lot I like about Safin otherwise as a villain.
    I'm just hoping the next Bond villain isn't another creepy soft-spoken European man.

    Fair. I kind of want another semi ridiculous Bond villain name though (I can’t believe the character’s real name is effectively Lucifer Satan… I kind of love it).
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 828
    I liked the Phantom of the Opera influence on Safin: the mask, the obsession, the creepy vibe. The character as a whole doesn't work for me (and neither does the film), but I think the idea was pretty solid. I like a bad guy with some sort of gimmick.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,261
    I was hoping some of the 2019? speculation/banter here was true, with Safin using that seaweed/algae to somewhat prolong his life and/or heal, hence the jacket with bullet holes, the pitted facial skin showing the body trying to fight back against this process (remember in the earliest pics, it looked like he had veins all over his face). Safin offers a prolonged life to the rich; people in power - but for a price... Something sinister. I wouldn't change what we got, but this seems more disturbing and otherworldly to me.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,012
    My only big issue with regards to NTTD’s writing is how Mallory is portrayed. To have him be responsible for the creation of Hercules makes him seem a bit hypocritical considering how he was chastising Dench’s M for similar “carelessness” back in Skyfall.
    Yes, we said it on here once before - Heracles should've been one of C's old projects that M was ordered to see through and did so out of a sense of duty, despite his own misgivings. After everything he said in SP, having Mallory oversee the development of Heracles really didn't ring true. Shame.
    With Safin, I'm in the 'he's a whackjob, of course he doesn't have coherent and rational plans' camp.
  • Posts: 2,155
    Venutius wrote: »
    My only big issue with regards to NTTD’s writing is how Mallory is portrayed. To have him be responsible for the creation of Hercules makes him seem a bit hypocritical considering how he was chastising Dench’s M for similar “carelessness” back in Skyfall.
    Yes, we said it on here once before - Heracles should've been one of C's old projects that M was ordered to see through and did so out of a sense of duty, despite his own misgivings. After everything he said in SP, having Mallory oversee the development of Heracles really didn't ring true. Shame.
    With Safin, I'm in the 'he's a whackjob, of course he doesn't have coherent and rational plans' camp.

    I like that idea. You could even have it so that SPECTRE were the ones who commissioned C to create the virus; thus adding an extra punch to the party scene in Cuba where they would all be killed off by something they created.

    As it stands it just felt so out of character for Mallory to be the one behind the development of Hercules. I can appreciate that the film calls him out for doing this, but it’s such a bizarre change for a character who’s been portrayed in SF/SP as being a bit more cautious than his predecessor. At least that’s what I think.
  • Posts: 1,707
    I liked the Phantom of the Opera influence on Safin: the mask, the obsession, the creepy vibe. The character as a whole doesn't work for me (and neither does the film), but I think the idea was pretty solid. I like a bad guy with some sort of gimmick.

    Phantom of the Opera meets Noh Theatre.
  • SimonSimon Keeping The British End Up...
    Posts: 136
    007HallY wrote: »
    Fair. I kind of want another semi ridiculous Bond villain name though (I can’t believe the character’s real name is effectively Lucifer Satan… I kind of love it).

    I'm mixed on the name. I mean, it was eye-rolling pap as far as I am concerned (IMO it's just one step away from Dr Evil), but I mean mixed on the Bondifying of the name. Just call him Lucifer Satan, or at least be a bit more creative with naming your bad guy Satan. Lyutsifer Safin sounds like those knock-off brands you get at cheap supermarkets.

    "Oh, yes, well. If you can get him, of course... what's that 'Lyutsifer Safin'? Well I guess he'll do instead."

  • Posts: 1,707
    In the run up to NTTD and early pix released, there was a lot speculation that the villain was Dr. No. Not sure how that came about, unless by association the Noh mask was construed with Dr. No. But of course different cultures, different races.

    But I do see similarities in the performances. Wiseman, cool, collected, unemotional, and Safin quite similar. Why does Wiseman in the first Bond film work so much better than Malik in the last Bond film? Dr. No interests me; Safin does not.




  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,354
    Safin's family are ethnic Japanese in Russia.

  • Posts: 1,766
    CrabKey wrote: »
    In the run up to NTTD and early pix released, there was a lot speculation that the villain was Dr. No. Not sure how that came about, unless by association the Noh mask was construed with Dr. No. But of course different cultures, different races.

    But I do see similarities in the performances. Wiseman, cool, collected, unemotional, and Safin quite similar. Why does Wiseman in the first Bond film work so much better than Malik in the last Bond film? Dr. No interests me; Safin does not.




    My take away about the comparisons between Dr. Noh and Safin as well.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited June 15 Posts: 3,012
    Yeah, the reason that the young Madeleine doesn't manage to kill the dr. in the Noh mask is because she shot for where the heart should be - but it wasn't there. Sounds familiar. It's at least plausible that Safin was intended to be Dr. No at some point during the development of NTTD.
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Not a red herring
    edited June 16 Posts: 586
    QBranch wrote: »
    I was hoping some of the 2019? speculation/banter here was true, with Safin using that seaweed/algae to somewhat prolong his life and/or heal, hence the jacket with bullet holes, the pitted facial skin showing the body trying to fight back against this process (remember in the earliest pics, it looked like he had veins all over his face). Safin offers a prolonged life to the rich; people in power - but for a price... Something sinister. I wouldn't change what we got, but this seems more disturbing and otherworldly to me.

    I really like that idea. It's got a bit of that old-fashioned Bondian absurdity about it. Hopefully it can be worked into a future film.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,836
    @Simon brought up an interesting point. We generally seem to like Bond villains with exotic names but there's always the risk of making them too silly. Safin's name came close to an insult, but at least it wasn't a bland "Sanchez".
    CrabKey wrote: »
    In the run up to NTTD and early pix released, there was a lot speculation that the villain was Dr. No. Not sure how that came about, unless by association the Noh mask was construed with Dr. No. But of course different cultures, different races.

    But I do see similarities in the performances. Wiseman, cool, collected, unemotional, and Safin quite similar. Why does Wiseman in the first Bond film work so much better than Malik in the last Bond film? Dr. No interests me; Safin does not.

    @CrabKey
    I, too, prefer Dr No over Safin, but they aren't very similar in my opinion. Wiseman's performance was frigid, menacing, almost robotic. Malek's, while certainly cool, doesn't register as unemotional to me. Rather, Malek's characteristic inflexions and mouth movements add a certain theatricality to his performance; combined with Safin's revenge plot and affection for Madeleine, this results in an emotional rather than a detached persona. I read Dr No's interests as strictly pragmatic and business-over-pleasure (though not without attempting a certain level of satisfaction), while Safin is ready for twenty sessions on a psychiatrist's couch.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 1,614
    CrabKey wrote: »
    In the run up to NTTD and early pix released, there was a lot speculation that the villain was Dr. No. Not sure how that came about, unless by association the Noh mask was construed with Dr. No. But of course different cultures, different races.

    But I do see similarities in the performances. Wiseman, cool, collected, unemotional, and Safin quite similar. Why does Wiseman in the first Bond film work so much better than Malik in the last Bond film? Dr. No interests me; Safin does not.




    Yeah. That's my main problem with NTTD. Safin looked like a terrific Bond villain in the trailers and stills, but once I saw the film, I was highly disappointed. The display of weak villains is the reason I find NTTD a chore to watch, because it doesn't feel like Bond is in any danger.
    I also agree with @DarthDimi that Wiseman's Dr. No is almost robotic. The way he does his locomotive display and all that....even down to how he moves his eyes.
    I can't think of a weaker villain than Safin in the entire series.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,340
    Dr. No is cold, calculated and despite not looking very intimidating on the outside commands a menacing and intimidating presence with a dash of charisma. Safin's only creepy with the help of the noh mask but aside from that he's not intimidating, menacing or charismatic. He feels like a lame copy of Bond villain's past and his breathy fake old man voice was so bad. He makes Koskov look like Goldfinger. Much like the movie he originated from Safin is the worst villain in the worst film of the franchise.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 1,614
    Maybe Malek should have watched Amalric and Taubman in QoS if he wanted to do the subtle, creepy and effective Bond villain better. For me, Safin is basically Dominic Greene done wrong.
  • TuxedoTuxedo Europe
    Posts: 257
    To me the worst villain in the whole franchise was Blofeld in SPECTRE. By far.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited June 16 Posts: 9,048
    Tuxedo wrote: »
    To me the worst villain in the whole franchise was Blofeld in SPECTRE. By far.

    For me Waltz was the biggest disappointment, but not the worst. Thankfully, IMO, this was rectified with a better and more twisted turn in NTTD.

    The worst villains, for me, have to be Gray's Blofeld, Kristatos, Whitaker, Carver (not in concept, but execution (and I love Pryce as an actor)), Renard (if one includes him as co-main villain), and finally, Graves (couldn't stand him from the moment I first saw him in the film; too obvious a performance. I loved Tan-San Moon, and the actor who played him, much more. He was an ill tempered brat/psychopath with daddy issues...))....
  • Posts: 990
    Blofeld should have been the villain of NTTD. That's all.

    Safin looks like a guest in his own movie.
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