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Would you rather spend time in Venice with Tatiana (FRWL) OR Vesper (CR 06)

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  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited November 2023 Posts: 5,984
    I think that MR is having a bit of a fan-renaissance...there are many steps I don't love that they took (mostly, all the Jaws stuff) but it is entertaining and solidly constructed in a way that later Bonds (SP, I'm looking at you) were not.

    And those locations make me salivate. It's kind of shocking that Bond hasn't been back to Rio.

    And the PTS of MR has never been bettered, IMHO.

    But I have to choose YOLT. It's gorgeous, it's Connery, and I have a soft spot for Aki (and to a lesser extent, Karen Dor). Even a lesser '60s Bond film is still a '60s Bond film.
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    Posts: 12,271
    It would have been YOLT by a landslide a few years ago, but the gap has closed a bit with me enjoying it a bit less and MR a bit more over time. That being said, I still can confidently enough pick YOLT.
  • 007ClassicBondFan007ClassicBondFan
    Posts: 2,080
    As mentioned by others, my enjoyment of MR has only gone up these past few viewings. I’d still say YOLT, but that isn’t a slight against MR. Both films are incredibly entertaining to watch!
  • DwayneDwayne New York City
    Posts: 2,629
    YOLT.

    Despite all of the negative things that I’ve written about MR over the years, it is a perfectly fine “rainy Sunday afternoon” movie. I just find YOLT more iconic.

    While YOLT has its share of zany moments it never quite over does it (IMO). Plus, given my Godzilla fandom, I have a soft spot for Akiko Wakabayashi and Mie Hama, and I also enjoy Tetsurō Tamba as Bond's ally Tiger.

    And, of course, you have the volcano lair and Barry's score (w/Nancy Sinatra singing the theme song - which is one of my personal favorites).

  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,982
    Good back and forth here! Interesting that both "space" Bond films were directed by Lewis Gilbert.

    I love so many sequences of YOLT. The rooftop crane shot, the ninjas storming the lair at the end. I love how this movie seems to capture the sixties in such a fun and vibrant way. While I am not a fan of Donald Pleasance portrayal of Blofeld, who doesn't love watching the white cat freak out! LOL Seriously YOLT is a movie that I enjoy every time I watch it.

    MR is a good film right up till we head to space. Then I find myself being taken out of the movie with lasers, a Space Station that somehow no one noticed was up in space. There are too many plot holes for me.

  • BennyBenny In the shadowsAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 14,882
    I’d go YOLT today but tomorrow I could easily go MR
    YOLT is a film that has grown on me more and more over the years.
    For two so over the top films, it’s amazing they both have such beautiful cinematography and gorgeous scores. Along with amazing production values.
    Lewis Gilbert really was a great director for Bond.
  • delfloriadelfloria
    Posts: 1,708
    Both are very strange films and though I voted for YOLT, can somebody tell me why, if a SPECTRE assassin tries to kill Bond while in ninja training, after he is in his Japanese disguise, which means Blofeld knows about the ruse, does Bond continue to use it and still get married? Also, why does Helga go out of her way release Bond and take him up in the plane only to then try and kill him? I've never figured these story points out.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited November 2023 Posts: 3,391
    Well, both of those films have great climax for me.

    YOLT have the Volcano lair sequence and that tense powering off the hijacking rocket.

    MR also was fun with the space thing, it might be out of place in that film, because the the rest of the film for me was pretty grounded in a modern sense, anyway, but the cinematography and set pieces really makes it up for me.

    The only one from where Gilbert failed for me is TSWLM, after the first two acts and the Egyptian scenes, the film began to drag and grinds to a halt, then it got pretty good moving again with that Lotus Esprit chase, then after that, it drags again, in terms of pacing, it's kinda inconsistent, the middle act bores me, where I'm literally skipping some scenes, but not even the climax is really worth it, it's also boring, TSWLM started out great, then became boring for the rest.

    So, maybe I both prefer MR and YOLT to TSWLM.

    I enjoy the first half of YOLT, but the pacing just when off after Aki had died, but it's redeemed again with the Volcano Lair scenes, so, the duration where the pacing is off was short.

    MR was pretty fun all around, the great thing about the space act was Holly Goodhead, for me, she's the brightest thing in that climax, I liked how she turned into Bond's action partner, really an equal to him, she started a great scene by kicking and punching those men in the shuttle, she's pretty tough and badass, and there's again the set pieces, cinematography, and also Barry's score, it's just fun.

    TSWLM is for me the only one that's oddly inconsistent, I think for all the praise that this film gets, I personally think Gilbert failed in delivering the good pacing for the film's entirety.
  • ColonelSunColonelSun
    Posts: 1,453
    YOLT has such great atmosphere and superb set pieces, brilliant photography and production design, wonderful score and theme song. And Connery still delivers. MR is also beautifully photographed and designed and, for all its crazy moments, I still highly enjoy it. YOLT and MR make a good double bill.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    edited November 2023 Posts: 4,120
    thedove wrote: »
    Good back and forth here! Interesting that both "space" Bond films were directed by Lewis Gilbert.

    I love so many sequences of YOLT. The rooftop crane shot, the ninjas storming the lair at the end. I love how this movie seems to capture the sixties in such a fun and vibrant way. While I am not a fan of Donald Pleasance portrayal of Blofeld, who doesn't love watching the white cat freak out! LOL Seriously YOLT is a movie that I enjoy every time I watch it.

    MR is a good film right up till we head to space. Then I find myself being taken out of the movie with lasers, a Space Station that somehow no one noticed was up in space. There are too many plot holes for me.

    Not just directed by Lewis Gilbert, but NOT written by Richard Maibaum. A great pair of villains: calmer villains can be just as scary, you don’t know when they’ll snap.
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    Well, both of those films have great climax for me.

    YOLT have the Volcano lair sequence and that tense powering off the hijacking rocket.

    MR also was fun with the space thing, it might be out of place in that film, because the the rest of the film for me was pretty grounded in a modern sense, anyway, but the cinematography and set pieces really makes it up for me.

    The only one from where Gilbert failed for me is TSWLM, after the first two acts and the Egyptian scenes, the film began to drag and grinds to a halt, then it got pretty good moving again with that Lotus Esprit chase, then after that, it drags again, in terms of pacing, it's kinda inconsistent, the middle act bores me, where I'm literally skipping some scenes, but not even the climax is really worth it, it's also boring, TSWLM started out great, then became boring for the rest.

    So, maybe I both prefer MR and YOLT to TSWLM.

    I enjoy the first half of YOLT, but the pacing just when off after Aki had died, but it's redeemed again with the Volcano Lair scenes, so, the duration where the pacing is off was short.

    MR was pretty fun all around, the great thing about the space act was Holly Goodhead, for me, she's the brightest thing in that climax, I liked how she turned into Bond's action partner, really an equal to him, she started a great scene by kicking and punching those men in the shuttle, she's pretty tough and badass, and there's again the set pieces, cinematography, and also Barry's score, it's just fun.

    TSWLM is for me the only one that's oddly inconsistent, I think for all the praise that this film gets, I personally think Gilbert failed in delivering the good pacing for the film's entirety.

    I’m glad to see that I’m not the only person that has problems with TSWLM and it’s pacing. Jaws saves that movie for me. The climax is unnecessarily slow. It’s arguably the slowest moving final battle, from the submarine capture to the shootout with Stormberg. The Lotus Esprit chase feels like it could be a great final battle!
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,982
    delfloria wrote: »
    Both are very strange films and though I voted for YOLT, can somebody tell me why, if a SPECTRE assassin tries to kill Bond while in ninja training, after he is in his Japanese disguise, which means Blofeld knows about the ruse, does Bond continue to use it and still get married? Also, why does Helga go out of her way release Bond and take him up in the plane only to then try and kill him? I've never figured these story points out.

    For the first one, a suspension of belief or disbelief is needed. The whole Japanese fishing village scene makes little to no sense. One suspects that Dahl wished to keep it in and created some credibility gaps because of it.

    The second one is an example of the villain having the upper hand and then not just killing Bond. TB why take Bond to the Largo's, kill him in the room and move on. OHMSS why put Bond in the cable room? Just kill him when he wakes up on the couch. DAF, why take Bond to the pipe construction area, just kill him.

    I believe Austin Powers used this to comedic effect with Dr. Evil and Scott having an argument about why he couldn't just kill Powers! LOL!
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited November 2023 Posts: 3,391
    thedove wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    Both are very strange films and though I voted for YOLT, can somebody tell me why, if a SPECTRE assassin tries to kill Bond while in ninja training, after he is in his Japanese disguise, which means Blofeld knows about the ruse, does Bond continue to use it and still get married? Also, why does Helga go out of her way release Bond and take him up in the plane only to then try and kill him? I've never figured these story points out.

    For the first one, a suspension of belief or disbelief is needed. The whole Japanese fishing village scene makes little to no sense. One suspects that Dahl wished to keep it in and created some credibility gaps because of it.

    The second one is an example of the villain having the upper hand and then not just killing Bond. TB why take Bond to the Largo's, kill him in the room and move on. OHMSS why put Bond in the cable room? Just kill him when he wakes up on the couch. DAF, why take Bond to the pipe construction area, just kill him.

    I believe Austin Powers used this to comedic effect with Dr. Evil and Scott having an argument about why he couldn't just kill Powers! LOL!

    Probably the same reason as Bond gave to Goldfinger, if they've killed Bond, the MI6 would come to them.

    So, they couldn't kill Bond because of that.

    It would be a recurring problem in the later films too, like:

    1. Why Drax left Bond and Holly in that crematorium? And Drax even had a chance to kill Bond in that shooting game.
    2. Kamal Khan had a lot of chance to kill Bond but he didn't?
    3. Stromberg could've killed Bond when he visited his lair the first time but he didn't.
    4. Kananga also had a chance to kill Bond himself, but he didn't, why to put him in a Crocodile farm?
    5. Trevelyan was also given a lot of chances to kill Bond, but he didn't?
    6. Silva had a lot of chance to kill Bond (this would make him killing of M more easier), but why he didn't?
    7. One could make a statement that Elliot Carver could've killed both Bond and Wai Lin when he met the both of them in Saigon.
    8. Gustav Graves was given a lot of chances to kill Bond, but why needs to complicate things?
    9. The same for Blofeld in SP, he could've just killed him.

    I think the only villains that tried to kill Bond are Zorin and of course, Safin, they didn't hesitate to send Bond everywhere or hire a person to do the dirty work.
  • Junglist_1985Junglist_1985 Los Angeles
    edited November 2023 Posts: 1,006
    Interesting discussion so far!
    Both YOLT and MR have top notch production value - amazing cinematography, scores, set design. Really firing on all cylinders.

    Have to tip this one to Moonraker as I feel the first half has some genuine spy work going on and you really can't beat the globe trotting locations of MR. Finally, as ridiculous as going into space is, it's still not as cringey as turning Japanese.
  • 007HallY007HallY
    Posts: 2,951
    I think with Bond it's not about what's 'logical' or not in the strictest sense. I often see people here claiming certain plot points don't make sense, usually well after they've watched the film for the first time. Often times it really doesn't matter.

    Not saying contrivances can't be a problem - by all means if it takes you out of the movie the first time you watch it, then it's something that hasn't worked. But in most cases a maniacal villain wanting to kill or torment Bond in an elaborate way which amuses him isn't really a problem.

    That's actually why I quite like Drax in MR. He outright says he wants to plan an amusing death for Bond but he keeps on avoiding them.
  • delfloriadelfloria
    edited November 2023 Posts: 1,708
    And this is why FRWL stands out as one of the best Bond films of all time. You don't have to make excuses for any of these kind of contrivances. Both YOLT and MR require you to leave your mind at the door most of the time.

    Also, one of the reasons I like YOLT over MR is that it embraces one location and uses it's culture to support the story. I'm not a big fan of Bond traveling all over the place in a single film.
  • ColonelSunColonelSun
    Posts: 1,453
    delfloria wrote: »
    And this is why FRWL stands out as one of the best Bond films of all time. You don't have to make excuses for any of these kind of contrivances. Both YOLT and MR require you to leave your mind at the door most of the time.

    Also, one of the reasons I like YOLT over MR is that it embraces one location and uses it's culture to support the story. I'm not a big fan of Bond traveling all over the place in a single film.

    Yes, I agree, the best Bond stories are often located in a specific location or environment, rather than globetrotting. DN, FRWL, TB, YOLT and OHMSS really nail that. And also GF in the second half in Kentucky and we really get a feel for that location.
  • delfloriadelfloria
    Posts: 1,708
    thedove wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    Both are very strange films and though I voted for YOLT, can somebody tell me why, if a SPECTRE assassin tries to kill Bond while in ninja training, after he is in his Japanese disguise, which means Blofeld knows about the ruse, does Bond continue to use it and still get married? Also, why does Helga go out of her way release Bond and take him up in the plane only to then try and kill him? I've never figured these story points out.

    For the first one, a suspension of belief or disbelief is needed. The whole Japanese fishing village scene makes little to no sense. One suspects that Dahl wished to keep it in and created some credibility gaps because of it.

    The second one is an example of the villain having the upper hand and then not just killing Bond. TB why take Bond to the Largo's, kill him in the room and move on. OHMSS why put Bond in the cable room? Just kill him when he wakes up on the couch. DAF, why take Bond to the pipe construction area, just kill him.

    I believe Austin Powers used this to comedic effect with Dr. Evil and Scott having an argument about why he couldn't just kill Powers! LOL!

    In regards to OHMSS, Blofeld wants Bond alive so that "He will help in convincing the authorities that he means what he says and he'll do what he claims". One of the best lines ever.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou. I can still hear my old hound dog barkin'.
    Posts: 8,700
    For me those two absolutely tie as plot-hole heavy fantasy, and they definitely both stress the concept of suspension of disbelief beyond most other Bond films. If we wonder how it could be that nobody spotted the space station, we must also wonder how several launches (and landings!) of spacecraft on a more or less deserted Japanese island could have been missed by all the global superpowers combined, in the Cold War era when everyone was spying on everyone else. So I guess it simply boils down to the question which of those two largely nonsensical movies I enjoy more watching, not which one is better or even (can you believe it?) more credible.

    I used to be a latecomer, very much so, among MR fans. But if I want to have a totally mindlessly enjoyable evening, it is the choice for me rather than YOLT. And as others have said here, I prefer both over TSWLM lately.
  • DwayneDwayne New York City
    Posts: 2,629
    @j_w_pepper : Ah….the scientific accuracy of Moonraker. It’s not science fiction, but science fact!!!!! =))

    See my August 22, 2022 posting on this very issue (among others).
    https://www.mi6community.com/discussion/3016/attempting-re-entry-moonraker-appreciation-thread/p18

    It is interesting to read (by way of comparison) everyone's thoughts on TSWLM. Like several of you, TSWLM has slipped in my rankings in recent years and I've warmed (just a bit) to MR.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,982
    delfloria wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    Both are very strange films and though I voted for YOLT, can somebody tell me why, if a SPECTRE assassin tries to kill Bond while in ninja training, after he is in his Japanese disguise, which means Blofeld knows about the ruse, does Bond continue to use it and still get married? Also, why does Helga go out of her way release Bond and take him up in the plane only to then try and kill him? I've never figured these story points out.

    For the first one, a suspension of belief or disbelief is needed. The whole Japanese fishing village scene makes little to no sense. One suspects that Dahl wished to keep it in and created some credibility gaps because of it.

    The second one is an example of the villain having the upper hand and then not just killing Bond. TB why take Bond to the Largo's, kill him in the room and move on. OHMSS why put Bond in the cable room? Just kill him when he wakes up on the couch. DAF, why take Bond to the pipe construction area, just kill him.

    I believe Austin Powers used this to comedic effect with Dr. Evil and Scott having an argument about why he couldn't just kill Powers! LOL!

    In regards to OHMSS, Blofeld wants Bond alive so that "He will help in convincing the authorities that he means what he says and he'll do what he claims". One of the best lines ever.

    Sure but why put him in a room that has an obvious means of escape? There are no closets, or rooms that have only one door in the whole complex? Why not tie him up and put him in a secure room? Makes no sense to put him somewhere there is a way outside.
  • Baltimore_007_Baltimore_007_
    Posts: 34
    Moonraker simply because it's one of my favorites of the entire series. Bond goes from California to Italy, then Brazil and the reaches of outer space. Sure in retrospect putting James Bond into orbit was a bizarre if not regrettable decision but it was all to do with cashing in on the Star Wars craze of it's time. As always with Moore there's a multitude of lame humor such as the pigeon, Bondola in Venice and cable car sequence with Richard Kiel but if you can rise above it all, it offers an adrenaline filled adventure that never lets down. YOLT can't quite offer that, or perhaps never really comes near.
  • delfloriadelfloria
    Posts: 1,708
    thedove wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    Both are very strange films and though I voted for YOLT, can somebody tell me why, if a SPECTRE assassin tries to kill Bond while in ninja training, after he is in his Japanese disguise, which means Blofeld knows about the ruse, does Bond continue to use it and still get married? Also, why does Helga go out of her way release Bond and take him up in the plane only to then try and kill him? I've never figured these story points out.

    For the first one, a suspension of belief or disbelief is needed. The whole Japanese fishing village scene makes little to no sense. One suspects that Dahl wished to keep it in and created some credibility gaps because of it.

    The second one is an example of the villain having the upper hand and then not just killing Bond. TB why take Bond to the Largo's, kill him in the room and move on. OHMSS why put Bond in the cable room? Just kill him when he wakes up on the couch. DAF, why take Bond to the pipe construction area, just kill him.

    I believe Austin Powers used this to comedic effect with Dr. Evil and Scott having an argument about why he couldn't just kill Powers! LOL!

    In regards to OHMSS, Blofeld wants Bond alive so that "He will help in convincing the authorities that he means what he says and he'll do what he claims". One of the best lines ever.

    Sure but why put him in a room that has an obvious means of escape? There are no closets, or rooms that have only one door in the whole complex? Why not tie him up and put him in a secure room? Makes no sense to put him somewhere there is a way outside.

    For anyone else but Bond it would have been impossible to get across that cable. That aside, question I was answering was "Why not just kill Bond".
  • delfloriadelfloria
    Posts: 1,708
    Baltimore_007_ wrote: »
    Moonraker simply because it's one of my favorites of the entire series. Bond goes from California to Italy, then Brazil and the reaches of outer space. Sure in retrospect putting James Bond into orbit was a bizarre if not regrettable decision but it was all to do with cashing in on the Star Wars craze of it's time. As always with Moore there's a multitude of lame humor such as the pigeon, Bondola in Venice and cable car sequence with Richard Kiel but if you can rise above it all, it offers an adrenaline filled adventure that never lets down. YOLT can't quite offer that, or perhaps never really comes near.


    The bottom line is that there is a Bond for everyone. I'm glad for you that you enjoy MR so much. I, on the other hand think that it is one of the lesser efforts in the series. My list of negatives is a mile long, unfortunately.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    edited November 2023 Posts: 4,982
    The battle of the spacey Bonds and it was a fairly even final, I enjoyed how much passion people brought to the choices.

    Okay lets move on to another similar themed Bond movie and pit them against each other.

    One film took place in the 70's and the other in the 80s'.

    Lets do a would you rather pitting Sir Roger against Timothy.

    Would you rather watch LALD OR LTK?

    In one corner a Bond movie about heroin and a Prime Minister who has a web of undercover underlings in NYC. This film also features some supernatural aspects and involves Voodoo. Bond destroys the villain plot from the outside.

    In the other corner, a Bond movie unlike any other. Bond goes on revenge and takes out Sanchez from the inside. Bond has a revoked license to kill. The film features a cocaine empire that involves a tele-evangelist, Asia and a plan for smuggling of drugs in a new way.

    What Bond movie would you rather watch?
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,519
    LTK. Not my favourite Bond film but there's some fantastic action sequences in there
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,531
    Very difficult.

    I love LALD. The last time I watched it I was very impressed with Moore and how he really did separate himself from Connery-Bond.

    But he was still James Bond.

    And the second half of LTK I really love as well…. And yes, as @Jordo007 said, the stunt work is terrific….

    I’m sorry @thedove , whichever one I’d choose, would depend on my mood…
  • 007ClassicBondFan007ClassicBondFan
    Posts: 2,080
    I’d probably have to go with LALD. LTK is great, but a bit dated in the late 80’s. Sort of a weird critique considering LALD is dated in the 70’s, but I just think LALD ages better.
  • Mathis1Mathis1
    Posts: 6,822
    I really like LALD, great debut for Moore, and I was there for its TV premiere and one of the highest audience figures, so its a nostalgia thing!
    But LTK is my man Dalton, and its a terrific, well told story with an excellent villain, gorgeous Bond girl and tremendous action! So its no contest, Sorry Rog!
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 13,945
    They're both pretty equal - lots of fun, many elements shared between the two (damn I miss seeing shark threats). However, I'm only doing anniversary films this year, so it has to be LALD. That's right, I'm only watching OP, LALD, NSNA and FRWL this year and in that order.
  • BennyBenny In the shadowsAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 14,882
    I love LTK and Timothy Dalton is one of my favourite Bonds.
    But, I have to go with LALD
    Roger Moore, like many actors in their debut Bond movie, is effortlessly cool. He takes on the role, and is a different Bond than Connery, whilst still playing the same character.
    I love the 70's look of LALD, and the soundtrack alone would help it take the win for me.
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