Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • mattjoesmattjoes matjoevakia
    Posts: 6,789
    slide_99 wrote: »
    If my point really didn't have merit, I don't think you would've spent so much time on the reply.
    I disagree.

    slide_99 wrote: »
    But anyway, just because an analogy is poorly-done doesn't mean that it wasn't meant to be an analogy.
    I agree. But there's nothing to indicate here that they were going for an analogy.

    slide_99 wrote: »
    okay, so what's the point of Ash always saying he's a fan of Bond? He says it once to his face when they meet, and that may have made sense in order for him to build trust. But then he says it again when he's flying away with Obruchev. At that point Felix is dying and Bond is all but dead to him. So why say it to Obruchev? What's the in-movie purpose of it?
    Logan Ash says that to amuse himself at the irony that, before, he was talking about being Bond's fan, and now he's about to cause his death.

    slide_99 wrote: »
    As for Ash's narrative purpose, Felix himself could have discovered Blofeld's party and gone there with Bond, at which point Primo (who was already established as the henchman) could have ambushed them both. The movie is bloated with too many characters and plot elements; in my opinion, Ash, Paloma, and Nomi were all pointless and only made the movie longer than it needed to be.
    From the point of view of plot and story, Ash might be redundant to some extent; I admit I haven't given it much thought. At any rate, that possibility doesn't imply he was intended to be analogy for anything.
  • Posts: 1,563
    People aren’t that precious about treating fiction like a chronicled document except the most obsessive fans.

    You also never responded to a post I made months ago in which I pointed out that in YOLT, Fleming changed Bond's birth year from 1917 to 1924, thereby contradicting events in Bond's past we already knew about, and shifting the entire timeline of the series forwards.

    I put Bond at 37 in Moonraker, published in 1955, which would make is his brith year 1918, but Fleming probably penned the novel in 1954. Googling Bond's age gives a mixed bag of birthdates.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited September 2023 Posts: 23,626
    People aren’t that precious about treating fiction like a chronicled document except the most obsessive fans.

    It seems to me that people who enjoy a lot of mainstream movies don't seem to worry about shifting 'timelines' or 'alternate universes', but I can guarantee that people who are passionate about quality literature wouldn't be so forgiving of such blatant goalpost-moving.

    @ColonelAdamski
    No disrespect, but this is the kind of argument that rubs me the wrong way. In a barely covered-up way, you're saying that those who enjoy NTTD aren't "passionate about" quality literature, which reads like we do not "understand" quality literature (though that could just be my interpretation.)

    Can't you simply admit that you don't like NTTD -- period -- without having to look for support outside yourself? Bluntly put, this is another instance where I feel like I'm some sort of idiot (for I am not passionate about quality literature) because I like NTTD.

    Perhaps you recall this little exchange of ours from a few days ago, in answer to @peter's post:
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Are we, indeed, considered stupid for liking NTTD?

    Not at all. I think you're very lucky. I've watched the film several times, determined to enjoy it. But I always end up hating it.

    Your recent post is more or less giving me the impression that, indeed, you think us stupid for liking NTTD. I really wish you'd just stop trying to find objective reasons why liking NTTD is beneath someone who [insert quality]. You seem to have no idea how insulting that can be.
  • edited September 2023 Posts: 1,007
    I don't think people that enjoy NTTD are stupid at all. I do think the idea of killing a character and resurrecting the same character in the same movie for no narrative reason is stupid though.
    And people who enjoy quality novels, (Fleming included) wouldn't put up with all that.
    If that makes me a snob, okay. Fair enough, I'm happy to be a snob in that case.

    Cheers!
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Not a red herring
    Posts: 567
    I don't think people that enjoy NTTD are stupid at all. I do think the idea of killing a character and resurrecting the same character in the same movie for no narrative reason is stupid though.
    And people who enjoy quality novels, (Fleming included) wouldn't put up with all that.
    If that makes me a snob, okay. Fair enough, I'm happy to be a snob in that case.

    Cheers!

    You've made it clear that you won't put up with it (which is fine by the way), but how can you speak for others?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,626
    I don't think people that enjoy NTTD are stupid at all. I do think the idea of killing a character and resurrecting the same character in the same movie for no narrative reason is stupid though.
    And people who enjoy quality novels, (Fleming included) wouldn't put up with all that.
    If that makes me a snob, okay. Fair enough, I'm happy to be a snob in that case.

    Cheers!

    I enjoy quality novels, Fleming very much included. And I put up with all that.

    I'm not saying you're a snob, I'm saying you're not making a lot of friends here this way. You just cannot go on presuming to know what other people think, or what they like or dislike.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,028
    I do think the idea of killing a character and resurrecting the same character in the same movie for no narrative reason is stupid though.

    Well, that doesn’t actually happen in the narrative of NTTD’s story, unless you actually interpret the end credits text as part of the story of NTTD. In which case… you do you.
  • Posts: 1,007
    I'm not saying you're a snob, I'm saying you're not making a lot of friends here this way.

    You're completely right. I think most people here hate what I say most of the time.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,123
    What's your intent with your posts, @ColonelAdamski?

    Another poster here suggested:
    NTTD gets a visceral reaction because of its "f*ck you" attitude towards the fanbase. The filmmakers knew their movie was going to piss people off. They fully anticipated the backlash and they even went so far as to create the Logan Ash character to represent (and therefore attack) the fans who wouldn't like their movie. "I was such a huge fan of his." The messaging couldn't be more obvious.

    That got some agreement. Others disagreed. But I'd also ask what was the intent for posting and repeating those sentiments and insulting comments?

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited September 2023 Posts: 23,626
    I'm not saying you're a snob, I'm saying you're not making a lot of friends here this way.

    You're completely right. I think most people here hate what I say most of the time.

    I don't hate your opinion of the film. What I resent is that you're trying to lump those of us who enjoy NTTD in with the less intelligent subset. The problem is not what you're saying about the film, it's what you're saying about us. I don't really like Batman Returns, but when stating my reasons, I talk about the film; I never try to build a stronger case by saying things like "no one who enjoys Batman Returns is a true Batman fan" or "no one who enjoys Batman Returns gets Batman". That would be arrogant and above all wrong! People have all sorts of reasons for liking or disliking something, reasons that have nothing to do with the quality of literature they appreciate or with how smart they are or whatever. And you lectured me about my "manners" in another thread...

    So tell me, @ColonelAdamski, what quality of literature do I and @peter and others here appreciate? I and Peter have gone on record saying that we like or even love NTTD (and what you so exaggeratingly reduce to alternate timeline bogus and whatnot). It'll be interesting to read your comments on our literary choices. I'll give you one for free: I adore Fleming, I have read Fleming's books at least 12 times since my teenage years long ago. So, what else can you surmise?
  • Posts: 1,007
    Jesus, you're so missing my point. I'm not trying to say anyone's cleverer than anyone else, I'm just saying that what's (apparently) acceptable in cinema, isn't acceptable in literature. And, in my opinion (SHUDDER!!!), literature is all the better for it.

    Can we leave it there please? Because for the first time since I've been here, you people are starting to annoy me more than I annoy you. Can you imagine that?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,028
    Speaking for myself and nobody else, I do not hate what you post.
  • Sometimes I wish all the drama over NTTD would end honestly. It’s like every week there always some argument on this forum over the film and it makes my head spin. I understand everyone has a right to their opinions but for Christ sakes this isn’t even the right thread for it! Don’t mean to offend any body but can we please just get back to the topic at hand?
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited September 2023 Posts: 13,123
    Can we leave it there please? Because for the first time since I've been here, you people are starting to annoy me more than I annoy you. Can you imagine that?
    ?
  • Posts: 15,851
    I can see why NTTD might feel like a middle finger to the fanbase. After another 6 year gap it certainly wasn't a revival for the franchise like GE. No, it was a definitive closure to an era.
    In addition, we're only a third into what is likely another 6 year gap IMO. Maybe more? That can certainly feel like an "eff you" to the fans as well.
    Personally I feel NTTD was a middle finger to social media cynics who'd probably never seen a Bond film before, yet claim the series and character needs to change.
    So we got a new 007 of a different gender and race. We got a family man Bond who slices apples rather than scrambling eggs. We got a Bond with a different occupation, working for the CIA rather than MI6. We got change, but the price was Bond's existence. Bond had to die in this one.
    For my money there were enough classic Bondian elements in this film to satisfy me, plus an emotional drive.

  • BennyBenny In the shadowsAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 14,899
    Okay, the opening post in this thread reads...

    What direction will the 007 series take after Daniel's helm? Where would Bond go after the Craig era?

    And this is directed specifically at @slide_99 your constant posts about your dislike of NTTD, a film you admit you have not seen in full has got to the point of flogging a dead horse!
    You can have issues with any film you like, that's your opinion. However using an asterix to hide swear words as you do, is not okay. Your obvious dislike for NTTD has nothing to do with where the next iteration of the character of James Bond will go after Daniel Craig, nor does your dislike of EON, and the way they handled NTTD.
    So for the sake of everyone, please give it a rest in this thread, and in general. Thanks.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited September 2023 Posts: 3,393
    I have some questions about the next era:

    1. Do you guys think high end technology should be featured in the next Bond era? I know there are some in the Craig Era, but do you think that technology in the Bond films should move further than that?

    2. About the Bond soundtracks, would you like it to be a Classical Orchestra like Barry?, or a techno vibe like what we've heard in the Brosnan Era (like that of David Arnold), what style you prefer?

    3. About Title Sequences, what style do we want for the next Bond era? Back to the silhouettes like in the Classic Era? An animation like of that Casino Royale, or using realistic/CGI designs?

    Let's talk about the technical aspects.....

    One thing for me sure, I don't like the palette uniform like the Yellow Sepia filter in SPECTRE or the Dark Turquoise Bluish Green in No Time To Die, even Quantum of Solace had that Brownish palette in there because of the setting, perhaps?

    What do you guys think?
  • edited September 2023 Posts: 15,851
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    I have some questions about the next era:

    1. Do you guys think high end technology should be featured in the next Bond era? I know there are some in the Craig Era, but do you think that technology in the Bond films should move further than that?

    2. About the Bond soundtracks, would you like it to be a Classical Orchestra like Barry?, or a techno vibe like what we've heard in the Brosnan Era (like that of David Arnold)?

    3. About Title Sequences, what style do we want for the next Bond era?

    Let's talk about the technical aspects.....

    One thing for me sure, I don't like the palette uniform like the Yellow Sepia filter in SPECTRE or the Dark Turquoise Bluish Green in No Time To Die, even Quantum of Solace had that Brownish palette in there because of the setting, perhaps?

    What do you guys think?

    1. Depends on the plot and storyline. I wouldn't mind some gadgets. I wouldn't go too trendy in the technology, as the film could date quickly.
    2. Depends on the actor cast as Bond, IMO. I think the Bondian music should be tailored to his style, the way Barry altered the styles for George Lazenby and Roger Moore.
    3. I want more beautiful ladies in the titles. Less CGI.
    4. Technical aspects: As far as color timing, I'd like a return to a more naturalistic look, maybe similar to FYEO or TLD. I'm tired of digital color grading that makes Bond's face look either purple, green or the color of pee.
  • Posts: 1,722
    By the time #26 comes around there will be a whole new generation of filmgoers out there that will make up the core ticket buying audience that have never read the Fleming books and have probably never seen most of the Bond films. The only question will be, can the producers produce a great crowd pleasing adventure?
  • edited September 2023 Posts: 3,279
    mtm wrote: »
    It almost felt at times like the producers/writers hated the character so much they were just thinking of the next horrible thing to throw at him before he finally dies.

    I get the same feeling. There's an unpleasant air of mean-spiritedness that runs through this movie.
    They changed James Bond, he's no longer 'the man every man wants to be' . . . he's now 'the man every man's glad they're not'.

    Funnily, that’s how I felt about Fleming’s Bond when I read the books for the first time. Fleming seemed to always put Bond through the wringer in his novels that I can’t imagine why anyone would fantasize about going on his kind of adventures that typically puts Bond in the hospital. I’m not just talking about the torture in CR, but especially stuff like him crawling through scalding hot air vents in DN where he burns parts of his skin off.

    The movies definitely play a lot more into the “every man wants to be him” aspect of that character until they decided to make Craig Bond a far more flawed character like Fleming’s.

    Yes I get this to an extent. But I do think the Fleming books allow you into Bond's head, Bond's world through his eyes, and we feel his fear, we feel his pleasure, we indulge the same way he does.

    I'm not really sure that's relevant though. It's a slight note of difference, but I don't know why it would mean that the cinematic version shouldn't suffer.
    Also, ultimately in Fleming's world Bond survives to live another day (even though there were a couple of potential mishaps along the way in FRWL and YOLT). This to me was the biggest sin committed in NTTD, far more than anything else.

    Except he flirted with that not happening in FRWL, and I would suggest that Fleming, like Conan Doyle, would have killed his creation off sooner or later. He was pretty broken by TMWTGG.

    I'm not going to add any more fuel to this fire. I feel like a lit a match yesterday and came back to the forum today to see the aftermath explosion. 😲

    I've said what I feel about NTTD, as have others on both sides. The debate is tired and worn. I just long for the day when we can start talking and debating about the next Bond film instead.
  • Posts: 1,563
    1-In the early days advanced technology was provided by Q Branch. These days it's hard to know what Q Branch might provide that's not easily available to the man on the street. But it seems almost a certainty AI will figure into the next film.

    2-Contemporary music becomes dated quickly, whereas orchestrations tend to be timeless. My preference, a pop song blended with orchestration.

    3-I'm glad the title sequences featuring scantily clad women twirling around gun barrels and whatever is over. From the Craig era, CR is my favorite. Not a fan of the mini film concept that has been used of late.

    4-As for color, whatever complements the story.

    5-No more old dog, sexist barbs aimed at Bond, which includes women whose role it is is to prove women are Bond's equal. A women can be everything Bond without being a mouthpiece and billboard for equality. Message received, a long time ago.

    6-Finally, wit not silliness.



  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited September 2023 Posts: 2,943
    1. MI6 probably have access to tech that's a bit ahead of what's available commercially. That'll do for me, rather than outright 'gadgets.'

    2. Agree with CrabKey - where music's concerned, go for the timeless over the contemporary.

    3. I think they've been on the right track with the title sequences for a long time now.

    4. Again, agree with CrabKey about using whatever colour/filter/etc suits or enhances the mood and the settings.

    5. Yes, the 'Bond's equal' trope got tired decades ago. IMO, obvs. It's not even an issue any more, is it? Look what Paloma did with three weeks training... ;)

    6. Dark, deadpan, dry humour and wry wit over lame gags, every time.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,002
    Re: 5. and 6: The "three weeks training" was a joke. Paloma was downplaying her own abilities (not incidentally, something women do all the time).
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited September 2023 Posts: 2,943
    Yes, indeed - I also mentioned it here purely as a joke, exaggerating the point for comedic effect and all that. Hang on, I'll go back and put a wink in... Point is, Paloma didn't need to justify herself or her suitability to be there - she just got stuck in and Bond dealt with her as he would any other agent he was working with. I liked that. I know Paloma wasn't a completely serious character, but I did find it refreshing that there was none of that old-style back-and-forth, point-to-prove stuff. I also liked that where those issues did appear, it was Nomi who had the problem with who was whose equal, not Bond. But, in general, I do think they've squeezed the mileage out of this one.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,529
    I wonder if there would be some unused Fleming that would work well as a PTS for Bond 26? Perhaps a variation of the short story FAVTAK?
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,393
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I wonder if there would be some unused Fleming that would work well as a PTS for Bond 26? Perhaps a variation of the short story FAVTAK?

    The Spy Who Loved Me, the story at the motel shootout would really work as an introduction for the new Bond actor.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 2,943
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    The Spy Who Loved Me[/i], the story at the motel shootout would really work as an introduction for the new Bond actor.
    Viv's forced to open the door, to get rid of whoever's there. Sope steps out of the night and the rain...

  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    edited September 2023 Posts: 2,529
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I wonder if there would be some unused Fleming that would work well as a PTS for Bond 26? Perhaps a variation of the short story FAVTAK?

    The Spy Who Loved Me, the story at the motel shootout would really work as an introduction for the new Bond actor.

    The only problem is aren't EON forbidden from adapting any of that story? I know they had to get permission to use the title
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,393
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I wonder if there would be some unused Fleming that would work well as a PTS for Bond 26? Perhaps a variation of the short story FAVTAK?

    The Spy Who Loved Me, the story at the motel shootout would really work as an introduction for the new Bond actor.

    The only problem is aren't EON forbidden from adapting any of that story? I know they had to get permission to use the title

    Ian Fleming has been long dead, maybe they could use it now, and are there any legal files that states the prohibition of using it? If my memory serves, it's only through oral agreement.
  • Venutius wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    The Spy Who Loved Me[/i], the story at the motel shootout would really work as an introduction for the new Bond actor.
    Viv's forced to open the door, to get rid of whoever's there. Sope steps out of the night and the rain...

    You had me...right until you mentioned the wrong actor... ;)
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