Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Spectre could have been more enjoyable with improved pacing. They knew the script wasn’t up to scratch, but they needed to get shooting, so……

    If I was EoN, I’d have paid top dollar for an editor; I wouldn’t have hired one of Nolan’s guys, that’s for sure….

    It feels like every scene, from the PTS onwards, should have been tightened, and the entire “C” plot certainly sliced and diced right down to the bone, giving us short scenes that were just enough to have the story continue moving with a forward trajectory. They may not have got an almost three hour film in the end, but perhaps one a little more enjoyable to sit through.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2023 Posts: 16,502
    Spectre is so frustrating because it's full of stuff I really like, I like the tone, I like the style, I love the new relaxed version of Craig's Bond and it has lots of good ideas, but they just don't connect very well and it doesn't cohere into a satisfying whole. It feels like if they'd had a month or longer then it would have been great. Maybe if Craig had taken the time out to let his leg heal it actually might have helped the film, it's hard to know.
  • Spectre is a strange one. On paper it should work but the end product felt very phoned in and dry. I think in part because Daniel Craig was clearly burnt out, the script needed a lot of work, and Sam Mendes had exhausted his creative energy on Skyfall.

    Both NTTD and Skyfall (to different extents) also set out to fuse a little bit of the camp and breeziness of classic Bond with the grit and intensity of the Craig films, but felt way more successful in that regard because it at least felt like everyone involved, both in front of and behind the camera put their all into it. Spectre was just so ho-hum and uninspired even though conceptually there are some interesting things going on.

    I think OHMSS/CR/SF/NTTD/TLD/GE all exist in that optimal area of the tonal spectrum and I hope Bond 26 falls within that range too.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,335
    I think there is a great opportunity to have a female main villain with a female director at the helm. Does Bond fall for her? Does Bond have to kill her? How does that impact him?

    Yes, I know they tried this with TWINE but not very successfully, IMHO.

    Blofeld's daughter Nena was one of Gardner's better ideas. If Blofeld shows up in the next continuity, she could show up around film #3 or 4.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,661
    echo wrote: »
    I think there is a great opportunity to have a female main villain with a female director at the helm. Does Bond fall for her? Does Bond have to kill her? How does that impact him?

    Yes, I know they tried this with TWINE but not very successfully, IMHO.

    Blofeld's daughter Nena was one of Gardner's better ideas. If Blofeld shows up in the next continuity, she could show up around film #3 or 4.

    I agree.
  • Posts: 1,971
    Skyfall's huge success was big reason why Spectre wasn't so good. They tried to hard to replicate that success
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I don’t think you’re incorrect @fjdinardo …. Bond’s box office numbers seem to have had a ceiling, and then, boom, a one billion dollar release. It’s not hard to imagine this weighed heavily on the development of the script: how are we going to have an equal, if not better, story/characters…. I can see this as a real block, and I don’t think it’s a surprise that all the creatives got stuck in the mud during the writing of the script.

    As @mtm stated earlier, there were some interesting ideas inside of this film, it’s frustrating the proper things weren’t developed (if I were a producer, I would have done everything in my power to delay production. If you’re limping out of script development, with a screenplay everyone had concerns about, that’s not a good start. Yes, I’d have done everything in my power to delay production, scrap the script, and start anew. But that’s easy for me to say…)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2023 Posts: 16,502
    echo wrote: »
    I think there is a great opportunity to have a female main villain with a female director at the helm. Does Bond fall for her? Does Bond have to kill her? How does that impact him?

    I agree that's certainly an interesting way to take it and it would add a new dimension, but I don't know if there even needs to be a sexual aspect. I look at something like Cate Blanchett in Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull or Julianne Moore in the second Kingsman, and I think they're not lacking at all as villains, and I'm puzzled as to why the Bond films haven't gone there. Someone on here recently suggested that Helen McCrory could have returned to be C in Spectre, and I find that an achingly huge missed opportunity now it's been pointed out. Imagine how great a baddie she'd have been.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,154
    Yes, agreed - having seen Helen McCrory's villainous turn with Dalton in Penny Dreadful, she'd've made a great C.
  • Posts: 6,709
    That would've been grand!
  • Posts: 3,327
    peter wrote: »
    Spectre could have been more enjoyable with improved pacing. They knew the script wasn’t up to scratch, but they needed to get shooting, so……

    If I was EoN, I’d have paid top dollar for an editor; I wouldn’t have hired one of Nolan’s guys, that’s for sure….

    It feels like every scene, from the PTS onwards, should have been tightened, and the entire “C” plot certainly sliced and diced right down to the bone, giving us short scenes that were just enough to have the story continue moving with a forward trajectory. They may not have got an almost three hour film in the end, but perhaps one a little more enjoyable to sit through.

    My main issue with SP is still Bond's recovery (or lack of it) after the head drilling torture scene. Had this been set in the tone of Craig's first 3 movies (particularly CR), we'd have seen a dazed Bond shaking his head, not knowing who he is for a few moments, trying to recover from a horrific ordeal.

    Instead we went back to Austin Powers/DAD Brosnan territory, where Bond can do things like stop his heart beating in hospital, then suddenly spring to life and start killing everyone in perfect fashion.

    SP, for all its faults, is still light years ahead of NTTD though.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    echo wrote: »
    I think there is a great opportunity to have a female main villain with a female director at the helm. Does Bond fall for her? Does Bond have to kill her? How does that impact him?

    Yes, I know they tried this with TWINE but not very successfully, IMHO.

    Blofeld's daughter Nena was one of Gardner's better ideas. If Blofeld shows up in the next continuity, she could show up around film #3 or 4.

    The only problem with this is I doubt they would have the courage to show Bond kill a female villain now. She'd probably kill herself or be arrested.

    It would be interesting to a female villain though, it's long overdue, I thought they were going to go there with Nomi initially.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2023 Posts: 16,502
    peter wrote: »
    Spectre could have been more enjoyable with improved pacing. They knew the script wasn’t up to scratch, but they needed to get shooting, so……

    If I was EoN, I’d have paid top dollar for an editor; I wouldn’t have hired one of Nolan’s guys, that’s for sure….

    It feels like every scene, from the PTS onwards, should have been tightened, and the entire “C” plot certainly sliced and diced right down to the bone, giving us short scenes that were just enough to have the story continue moving with a forward trajectory. They may not have got an almost three hour film in the end, but perhaps one a little more enjoyable to sit through.

    My main issue with SP is still Bond's recovery (or lack of it) after the head drilling torture scene. Had this been set in the tone of Craig's first 3 movies (particularly CR), we'd have seen a dazed Bond shaking his head, not knowing who he is for a few moments, trying to recover from a horrific ordeal.

    Instead we went back to Austin Powers/DAD Brosnan territory, where Bond can do things like stop his heart beating in hospital, then suddenly spring to life and start killing everyone in perfect fashion.

    SP, for all its faults, is still light years ahead of NTTD though.

    Yes i definitely agree that it’s a cheat. I tend to think that if we’re told how a device works in a film then that’s how it works (with exceptions for jokes etc.) - we’re told he’ll lose his memory so those are the stakes, just as much as Goldfinger has an atom bomb which will kill James Bond if he’s handcuffed to it. You can’t just have it that Blofeld is wrong and drilling into his head doesn’t do anything, that’s a cheat.
  • Personally think that Spectre is underrated. It has my favourite Bond actor and great action. The Rome car chase is a little underwhelming admittedly.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,335
    mtm wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I think there is a great opportunity to have a female main villain with a female director at the helm. Does Bond fall for her? Does Bond have to kill her? How does that impact him?

    I agree that's certainly an interesting way to take it and it would add a new dimension, but I don't know if there even needs to be a sexual aspect. I look at something like Cate Blanchett in Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull or Julianne Moore in the second Kingsman, and I think they're not lacking at all as villains, and I'm puzzled as to why the Bond films haven't gone there. Someone on here recently suggested that Helen McCrory could have returned to be C in Spectre, and I find that an achingly huge missed opportunity now it's been pointed out. Imagine how great a baddie she'd have been.

    That was me. :)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,502
    Excellent suggestion echo!
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,335
    She was so wonderful in Peaky Blinders. SF only hints at her greatness.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,620
    Good call on McCrory, I thought she would've been perfect to play Moneypenny. So much that:

    53094851556_d0e8271577_o.png

    But yeah, just as good as a villain too. She was great in Penny Dreadful and Dr Who as well.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,985
    Personally think that Spectre is underrated. It has my favourite Bond actor and great action. The Rome car chase is a little underwhelming admittedly.

    I don't think I enjoyed any of the action in the film, except for the train fight. The rest is underwhelming, ludicrous, or just plain boring.
  • TheSkyfallen06TheSkyfallen06 Buenos Aires, Argentina.
    Posts: 1,107
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Personally think that Spectre is underrated. It has my favourite Bond actor and great action. The Rome car chase is a little underwhelming admittedly.

    I don't think I enjoyed any of the action in the film, except for the train fight. The rest is underwhelming, ludicrous, or just plain boring.

    There's a fan-edit of "Spectre" called "Spectre: [Redacted]" that trims most of the "unnecesary padding" to make it better-paced, maybe you could have a look at it.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,620
    I must be one of about two people here who liked the Rome chase and Moneypenny intermission because it was different from the typical chases we're used to. There's no excusing the lack of pedestrians though.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,193
    The way some of you complain about SP and NTTD makes me wish the next Bond film is exactly like those too, especially if it makes you feel the most dejected as a fan.
  • peter wrote: »
    They knew the script wasn’t up to scratch, but they needed to get shooting, so……

    This is exactly why they should not start pre-production until they have a script they are satisfied with. When will they finally learn this lesson?
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    peter wrote: »
    They knew the script wasn’t up to scratch, but they needed to get shooting, so……

    This is exactly why they should not start pre-production until they have a script they are satisfied with. When will they finally learn this lesson?

    That’s a good rule, @Colonel_Venus , but sometimes there are other pressures. Who knows if the distributors were pressuring EoN to not move from the release date? Sometimes these things will be out of their hands. But you have a point, and—

    I’d like to assume they put this into practice when they walked away from Boyle when they weren’t enamoured with the script he was developing, and Boyle wasn’t bending on allowing the producers to get a script doctor(s), so they made the tough, but necessary choice, to start back at the P & W first draft and build from there with a new director and his team.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,661
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I think there is a great opportunity to have a female main villain with a female director at the helm. Does Bond fall for her? Does Bond have to kill her? How does that impact him?

    Yes, I know they tried this with TWINE but not very successfully, IMHO.

    Blofeld's daughter Nena was one of Gardner's better ideas. If Blofeld shows up in the next continuity, she could show up around film #3 or 4.

    The only problem with this is I doubt they would have the courage to show Bond kill a female villain now. She'd probably kill herself or be arrested.

    It would be interesting to a female villain though, it's long overdue, I thought they were going to go there with Nomi initially.

    That’s what happened in Carte Blanche with Felicity Willing. I’m also tried of the Bond women villains being evil as a plot twist. Just have a female villain who we know is evil right away. Only Agent Under Fire does this.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited August 2023 Posts: 3,154
    Yeah, but what if that's the only way we can get Anya Taylor-Joy? ;)
  • Posts: 3,327
    The way some of you complain about SP and NTTD makes me wish the next Bond film is exactly like those too, especially if it makes you feel the most dejected as a fan.

    Let's hope the next film is something I love and you hate, so I can pass the sentiment right back at you.... ;)
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,193
    I take it back.

    They should make another DAD.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,594
    We should each pen a
    I take it back.

    They should make another DAD.

    I'm down. Just no crappy lines and horrifying CGI. There's a good film in DAD, even in the Iceland scenes.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,193
    I take it back.

    They should make another DAD.

    I'm down. Just no crappy lines and horrifying CGI. There's a good film in DAD, even in the Iceland scenes.

    No! We need MORE of that!
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