Controversial opinions about other movies

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  • Posts: 14,799
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Here's ome: James Cameron is overall a director of overrated movies. Or at least, his two most successful movies were both upon release overrated and utterly forgettable.
    That said, Cameron is also particularly talented at almost instinctively knowing exactly what audiences want at any given time and being able to deliver exactly that.

    I absolutely agree. His best are ALIENS, The Terminator and T2 in my opinion. The Abyss is fine. Everything True Lies and onwards doesn't do it for me. But the man understands the needs of the audience.

    I'd even say T2 is basically a repeat of Terminator with better fx, but I know it has its fans. I find Terminator superior: a neat dark sci-fi thriller.
    mtm wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Here's ome: James Cameron is overall a director of overrated movies. Or at least, his two most successful movies were both upon release overrated and utterly forgettable.

    Well, that wouldn't be his fault; and, both of those movies are very good, solid films. Not the most inspiringly different and fresh things you've ever seen, but they don't put a foot wrong and people enjoyed them.

    It's just sad he won't have James Horner along next time.
    They're solid films, just terribly overrated. And yes, Cameron knows exactly what to give to his audiences.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,009
    Gonna step up and defend True Lies from the overrated accusation. If anything, I'd say it's underrated in comparison with his other films. Not exactly forgotten but certainly less talked about considering how good it is. It's better than 80% of Bond films.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2022 Posts: 14,861
    Ludovico wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Here's ome: James Cameron is overall a director of overrated movies. Or at least, his two most successful movies were both upon release overrated and utterly forgettable.
    That said, Cameron is also particularly talented at almost instinctively knowing exactly what audiences want at any given time and being able to deliver exactly that.

    I absolutely agree. His best are ALIENS, The Terminator and T2 in my opinion. The Abyss is fine. Everything True Lies and onwards doesn't do it for me. But the man understands the needs of the audience.

    I'd even say T2 is basically a repeat of Terminator with better fx, but I know it has its fans. I find Terminator superior: a neat dark sci-fi thriller.

    I think they're both superb. T2 is a pretty perfect blockbuster, T1 is a pretty perfect horror film.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    They're solid films, just terribly overrated. And yes, Cameron knows exactly what to give to his audiences.

    Yes, you said that :D
    Gonna step up and defend True Lies from the overrated accusation. If anything, I'd say it's underrated in comparison with his other films. Not exactly forgotten but certainly less talked about considering how good it is. It's better than 80% of Bond films.

    Absolutely, I think True Lies is brilliant. And it actually gets better in the climax too.

    I think there's an argument that only Ivan Reitman and Cameron could direct Arnie to get his very best out of him.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,049
    mtm wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Here's ome: James Cameron is overall a director of overrated movies. Or at least, his two most successful movies were both upon release overrated and utterly forgettable.
    That said, Cameron is also particularly talented at almost instinctively knowing exactly what audiences want at any given time and being able to deliver exactly that.

    I absolutely agree. His best are ALIENS, The Terminator and T2 in my opinion. The Abyss is fine. Everything True Lies and onwards doesn't do it for me. But the man understands the needs of the audience.

    I'd even say T2 is basically a repeat of Terminator with better fx, but I know it has its fans. I find Terminator superior: a neat dark sci-fi thriller.

    I think they're both superb. T2 is a pretty perfect blockbuster, T1 is a pretty perfect horror film.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    They're solid films, just terribly overrated. And yes, Cameron knows exactly what to give to his audiences.

    Yes, you said that :D
    Gonna step up and defend True Lies from the overrated accusation. If anything, I'd say it's underrated in comparison with his other films. Not exactly forgotten but certainly less talked about considering how good it is. It's better than 80% of Bond films.

    Absolutely, I think True Lies is brilliant. And it actually gets better in the climax too.

    I think there's an argument that only Ivan Reitman and Cameron could direct Arnie to get his very best out of him.

    Maybe Joel Schumacher showed us a side we didn’t know he had.🤓

    I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: James Cameron is NOT a great director. He can’t write something without plagiarizing, he tortures people with his ego, and his last good movie was almost 30 years ago. He also thinks he talks like a average person, but he really speaks and does things like a rich person. Had Titanic or Avatar bombed financially and critically, he’d be the next Michael Cimino. Just a mean person with little talent that went to waste, with the expectation of computer technology. The Donald Trump of directors, sorry to get political, everyone.Avatar 2 is either going to be really good financially and critically, or really bad. There will be no one to blame but James Cameron, either way it seems. P.S. JC’s top 5 favorite movie list is the most boring, generic list ever. Everyone calls these one of their favorites.

    https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/article/five-favorite-films-with-james-cameron/

    I know I’ve repeated this in this thread before, but sorry. Say something that I’ve said before on this thread, Richard Donner is underrated. He tried every genre, and that’s why he’s underrated: he wasn’t afraid to try something different. James Cameron only makes action and science fiction. While generally good at it, he could have expanded his range.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Here's ome: James Cameron is overall a director of overrated movies. Or at least, his two most successful movies were both upon release overrated and utterly forgettable.
    That said, Cameron is also particularly talented at almost instinctively knowing exactly what audiences want at any given time and being able to deliver exactly that.

    I'm assuming you're talking about Titanic and Avatar. I'd hardly call Avatar forgettable. The Incredible images on Pandora seem to burn themselves on my retinas! And for all it's unoriginality, Avatar is spectacular and entertaining.

    Titanic whilst technically impressive suffered from a terribly simplistic and mawkish script.

    I've loved most of his output though.

    Cameron is one of the best action directors in cinema history IMO.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,664
    I'm with "director of overrated movies". I have never connected with anything he's done, and he strikes me a sort of proto-Marvel filmmaker in that he tends to have these mechanically perfect blockbusters that feel like they could have been created by an advanced AI. I don't think I've ever been moved or surprised by anything in a Cameron movie, and generally struggle to recall specifics of anything that happened in them.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 7,999
    I wish more movies were as good as THE TERMINATOR
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited May 2022 Posts: 8,009
    I don't think I've ever seen Cameron being hailed as a master of emotionally connective cinema, though. The storylines are always solid and often quite clever (and for me, there are certain emotional beats that do land perfectly) but he's always been a technical pioneer, the inventive sort. His films have always reflected that and been praised accordingly on those terms. So I don't really see how it would lead to him being correctly labelled as overrated. They're always evaluated through the appropriate prism, I think.

    It's like saying Federico Fellini was massively overrated as a blockbuster, spectacle-focused filmmaker.
  • Posts: 14,799
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Here's ome: James Cameron is overall a director of overrated movies. Or at least, his two most successful movies were both upon release overrated and utterly forgettable.
    That said, Cameron is also particularly talented at almost instinctively knowing exactly what audiences want at any given time and being able to deliver exactly that.

    I'm assuming you're talking about Titanic and Avatar. I'd hardly call Avatar forgettable. The Incredible images on Pandora seem to burn themselves on my retinas! And for all it's unoriginality, Avatar is spectacular and entertaining.

    Titanic whilst technically impressive suffered from a terribly simplistic and mawkish script.

    I've loved most of his output though.

    Cameron is one of the best action directors in cinema history IMO.

    Ask anyone who has seen the film what they remember about Avatar. It looks good, but it's pretty much Dance with Wolves in space.
    I'm with "director of overrated movies". I have never connected with anything he's done, and he strikes me a sort of proto-Marvel filmmaker in that he tends to have these mechanically perfect blockbusters that feel like they could have been created by an advanced AI. I don't think I've ever been moved or surprised by anything in a Cameron movie, and generally struggle to recall specifics of anything that happened in them.

    I think that's a good assessment re the proto Marvel. Interestingly he did work on a Spider Man project.
  • Posts: 14,799
    I don't think I've ever seen Cameron being hailed as a master of emotionally connective cinema, though. The storylines are always solid and often quite clever (and for me, there are certain emotional beats that do land perfectly) but he's always been a technical pioneer, the inventive sort. His films have always reflected that and been praised accordingly on those terms. So I don't really see how it would lead to him being correctly labelled as overrated. They're always evaluated through the appropriate prism, I think.

    It's like saying Federico Fellini was massively overrated as a blockbuster, spectacle-focused filmmaker.

    The difference is that Fellini did not make blockbusters. Cameron was nominated (and won) Oscars he didn't really deserve imo. I was very glad Avatar didn't win Best Picture. That it was nominated for something else than technical awards always baffled me. And that's why I said he's a director of overrated movies and not an overrated director.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2022 Posts: 14,861
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I don't think I've ever seen Cameron being hailed as a master of emotionally connective cinema, though. The storylines are always solid and often quite clever (and for me, there are certain emotional beats that do land perfectly) but he's always been a technical pioneer, the inventive sort. His films have always reflected that and been praised accordingly on those terms. So I don't really see how it would lead to him being correctly labelled as overrated. They're always evaluated through the appropriate prism, I think.

    It's like saying Federico Fellini was massively overrated as a blockbuster, spectacle-focused filmmaker.

    The difference is that Fellini did not make blockbusters.

    That was rather the point CraigM was making.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,369
    Ludovico wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Here's ome: James Cameron is overall a director of overrated movies. Or at least, his two most successful movies were both upon release overrated and utterly forgettable.
    That said, Cameron is also particularly talented at almost instinctively knowing exactly what audiences want at any given time and being able to deliver exactly that.

    I absolutely agree. His best are ALIENS, The Terminator and T2 in my opinion. The Abyss is fine. Everything True Lies and onwards doesn't do it for me. But the man understands the needs of the audience.

    I'd even say T2 is basically a repeat of Terminator with better fx, but I know it has its fans. I find Terminator superior: a neat dark sci-fi thriller.
    mtm wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Here's ome: James Cameron is overall a director of overrated movies. Or at least, his two most successful movies were both upon release overrated and utterly forgettable.

    Well, that wouldn't be his fault; and, both of those movies are very good, solid films. Not the most inspiringly different and fresh things you've ever seen, but they don't put a foot wrong and people enjoyed them.

    It's just sad he won't have James Horner along next time.
    They're solid films, just terribly overrated. And yes, Cameron knows exactly what to give to his audiences.

    The Terminator is my favorite non-horror horror film ever. Schwarzenegger is brilliant in it and always gave me the creeps as a kid. It's impossible for me to pick a favorite out of the first two installments, they're both excellent in what they set out to do and are both different films in many respects.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,250
    @Creasy47 ... The older I get, the more T1 stands out. Such a simple concept executed beautifuly... Pretty low budget but Cameron squeezed every single penny to make a taut (horror)thriller. It never fails to make me anxious...

    I'll always love T2 for being unapologetically kick ass.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,369
    peter wrote: »
    @Creasy47 ... The older I get, the more T1 stands out. Such a simple concept executed beautifuly... Pretty low budget but Cameron squeezed every single penny to make a taut (horror)thriller. It never fails to make me anxious...

    I'll always love T2 for being unapologetically kick ass.

    Absolutely; it's so simple yet so effective. I wouldn't ever want it remade in full but I wish any new sequels or remakes in the series would tackle this approach, a sort of "less is more" attitude instead of full-blown CGI and spectacle all the time.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 7,999
    Blockbusters are as worthy for an Oscar as a Fellini film. Ideally, any film of any genre should be. TITANIC isn’t among my favorites but it’s an undeniably well made film on the same trajectory as GONE WITH THE WIND.

    Of the 1997 nominations, I would pick L.A. CONFIDENTIAL as best picture.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,049
    Blockbusters are as worthy for an Oscar as a Fellini film. Ideally, any film of any genre should be. TITANIC isn’t among my favorites but it’s an undeniably well made film on the same trajectory as GONE WITH THE WIND.

    Of the 1997 nominations, I would pick L.A. CONFIDENTIAL as best picture.

    I agree on L.A. Confidential being at least one of the best movies of ‘97. As for Oscars, it’s all a person’s opinion. Even the voters. They gave 4 to Woody Allen, and he says it meant nothing to him. The only time that he bothered to show up for the Oscars was too promote for people too keep filming in New York City after 9/11. I’m sure if it came with a underage girl, he’d be happy to have them. A horrible human being and a repetitive artist. Not much different from James Cameron.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    edited May 2022 Posts: 3,985
    I'm with "director of overrated movies". I have never connected with anything he's done, and he strikes me a sort of proto-Marvel filmmaker in that he tends to have these mechanically perfect blockbusters that feel like they could have been created by an advanced AI. I don't think I've ever been moved or surprised by anything in a Cameron movie, and generally struggle to recall specifics of anything that happened in them.

    You obviously haven't watched them very much then...😉

    The chase through the flood channels in T2 is one of the greatest action sequences put to film. If you can't recall Arnie's shotgun reload twirl then there really is no hope for you 😁
  • Posts: 14,799
    mtm wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I don't think I've ever seen Cameron being hailed as a master of emotionally connective cinema, though. The storylines are always solid and often quite clever (and for me, there are certain emotional beats that do land perfectly) but he's always been a technical pioneer, the inventive sort. His films have always reflected that and been praised accordingly on those terms. So I don't really see how it would lead to him being correctly labelled as overrated. They're always evaluated through the appropriate prism, I think.

    It's like saying Federico Fellini was massively overrated as a blockbuster, spectacle-focused filmmaker.

    The difference is that Fellini did not make blockbusters.

    That was rather the point CraigM was making.

    My point is that at least some blockbusters of Cameron made it to the Oscars. And Titanic won best picture. That's what I meant.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I don't think I've ever seen Cameron being hailed as a master of emotionally connective cinema, though. The storylines are always solid and often quite clever (and for me, there are certain emotional beats that do land perfectly) but he's always been a technical pioneer, the inventive sort. His films have always reflected that and been praised accordingly on those terms. So I don't really see how it would lead to him being correctly labelled as overrated. They're always evaluated through the appropriate prism, I think.

    It's like saying Federico Fellini was massively overrated as a blockbuster, spectacle-focused filmmaker.

    The difference is that Fellini did not make blockbusters.

    That was rather the point CraigM was making.

    My point is that at least some blockbusters of Cameron made it to the Oscars. And Titanic won best picture. That's what I meant.

    Right...? But, again as Craig was saying, the emotional beats land in his films. They do nothing wrong, and are in fact really rather good. Why wouldn't his films get Oscars? As Makeshift said, blockbusters can be worthy of Oscars.
  • Posts: 14,799
    mtm wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I don't think I've ever seen Cameron being hailed as a master of emotionally connective cinema, though. The storylines are always solid and often quite clever (and for me, there are certain emotional beats that do land perfectly) but he's always been a technical pioneer, the inventive sort. His films have always reflected that and been praised accordingly on those terms. So I don't really see how it would lead to him being correctly labelled as overrated. They're always evaluated through the appropriate prism, I think.

    It's like saying Federico Fellini was massively overrated as a blockbuster, spectacle-focused filmmaker.

    The difference is that Fellini did not make blockbusters.

    That was rather the point CraigM was making.

    My point is that at least some blockbusters of Cameron made it to the Oscars. And Titanic won best picture. That's what I meant.

    Right...? But, again as Craig was saying, the emotional beats land in his films. They do nothing wrong, and are in fact really rather good. Why wouldn't his films get Oscars? As Makeshift said, blockbusters can be worthy of Oscars.

    I didn't say his films were bad, just overrated. Even as blockbusters, I don't think Titanic or Avatar were worthy of Best Picture.
  • Posts: 372
    Something Cameron doesn't get much credit for, although he should, is that he's a terrific director of women. Many of his female actors have given career best performances. Weaver in Aliens, Linda Hamilton in T2, Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio in The Abyss. Not to mention great performances from Kate Winslet and Jamie Lee Curtis.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,009
    Ludovico wrote: »
    And that's why I said he's a director of overrated movies and not an overrated director.

    Sorry, the comment I was more replying to was referring to his entire filmography and I don't think you can describe them as being overrated without the implication being that he's also overrated as a director.

    I'm no big fan of Avatar, mind you.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 7,999
    AVATAR is my least favorite of Cameron’s, but the IMAX 3D presentation was one of the most immersive theatrical experiences I ever had and I think that alone made it worthy of a nomination. I don’t think any film has come close to that since, especially in terms of 3D presentation. That’s why it was popular. I don’t think anyone except maybe Cameron himself ever claimed it’s one of the best stories ever told in cinema. Cinema is more than just telling story, it’s also about audiovisual factor. That’s why David Lynch’s films are so impressive.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,250
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    @Creasy47 ... The older I get, the more T1 stands out. Such a simple concept executed beautifuly... Pretty low budget but Cameron squeezed every single penny to make a taut (horror)thriller. It never fails to make me anxious...

    I'll always love T2 for being unapologetically kick ass.

    Absolutely; it's so simple yet so effective. I wouldn't ever want it remade in full but I wish any new sequels or remakes in the series would tackle this approach, a sort of "less is more" attitude instead of full-blown CGI and spectacle all the time.

    @Creasy47 … I’m wondering if Terminator was a concept that lightning in a bottle happened not once, but twice; and now it can no longer strike at all?

    The first film is so beautifully executed. It’s a nightmare of a story that’s as relentless as the robot-assassin; T2 went in a completely different direction; big and wild and unapologetic; a feast for the eyes.

    But without Cameron, is it possible to continue this story? Is it worthy to expand as a film series? I’m not so sure…. The first two are so remarkable, anyone taking on the sequels not named Cameron, was always going to have an uphill battle. But the sequels just failed to capture my attention. Is this a story worth “plundering “?
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,009
    AVATAR is my least favorite of Cameron’s, but the IMAX 3D presentation was one of the most immersive theatrical experiences I ever had and I think that alone made it worthy of a nomination. I don’t think any film has come close to that since, especially in terms of 3D presentation. That’s why it was popular. I don’t think anyone except maybe Cameron himself ever claimed it’s one of the best stories ever told in cinema. Cinema is more than just telling story, it’s also about audiovisual factor. That’s why David Lynch’s films are so impressive.

    I wholeheartedly agree. Perhaps the reason why I don't hold Avatar in high regard is because I missed out on it while it was in theatres. I only saw it later.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    AVATAR is my least favorite of Cameron’s, but the IMAX 3D presentation was one of the most immersive theatrical experiences I ever had and I think that alone made it worthy of a nomination. I don’t think any film has come close to that since, especially in terms of 3D presentation. That’s why it was popular. I don’t think anyone except maybe Cameron himself ever claimed it’s one of the best stories ever told in cinema. Cinema is more than just telling story, it’s also about audiovisual factor. That’s why David Lynch’s films are so impressive.

    Yes I think the question of whether Cameron is overrated comes down to what you think he's rated for. As a showman who gives the audience what they want and a huge bang for their buck, I can't see how he's overrated at all.
  • Posts: 14,799
    cooperman2 wrote: »
    Something Cameron doesn't get much credit for, although he should, is that he's a terrific director of women. Many of his female actors have given career best performances. Weaver in Aliens, Linda Hamilton in T2, Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio in The Abyss. Not to mention great performances from Kate Winslet and Jamie Lee Curtis.

    Oh I'll give him that. He's a good director of women and he started a trend of female protagonists that nobody after him really mastered as well and he did. His women are genuine, if that makes sense, as action characters.
  • Posts: 14,799
    mtm wrote: »
    AVATAR is my least favorite of Cameron’s, but the IMAX 3D presentation was one of the most immersive theatrical experiences I ever had and I think that alone made it worthy of a nomination. I don’t think any film has come close to that since, especially in terms of 3D presentation. That’s why it was popular. I don’t think anyone except maybe Cameron himself ever claimed it’s one of the best stories ever told in cinema. Cinema is more than just telling story, it’s also about audiovisual factor. That’s why David Lynch’s films are so impressive.

    Yes I think the question of whether Cameron is overrated comes down to what you think he's rated for. As a showman who gives the audience what they want and a huge bang for their buck, I can't see how he's overrated at all.

    Cameron is very good at what he does, but I still don't think Titanic and Avatar deserved the praise they received at the time, except for technical achievements.

    Another controversial opinion: take away the music of Ennio Morricone and The Untouchable is little more than a well cast mediocre movie.
    And here's a last one: while Kevin Costner is a perfect cast for average, somewhat bland good guys and everymen, he's a terrible casting choice for larger than life heroes. He works as Eliot Ness, albeit he's very different from the historical one, because he plays him as a conscientious civil servant. I will always say that he was catastrophic as an unheroic and un English Robin Hood.
  • Posts: 15,785
    I rarely like to post negative comments, but here goes:

    I thought AVATAR sucked.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,448
    I don't think AVATAR sucked but I find it neither original nor belonging anywhere but in a theme park. The story is thin and more predictable than how my intestines will respond to large quantities of spicy food. The film is visually in-cre-di-ble, but so is a light show at Disney World.

    Regarding women, yes, agreed, Cameron knows how to write for them and direct them.
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