Tomorrow Never Dies: what went wrong?

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython Alpha Quadrant
    Posts: 5,520
    And if I had to pick one Bond movie to be forever removed from my sight, never to see be again, it would be TND

    In a series with a number of ill-conceived misfires, that's quite something.

    Quite right.

    TWINE would be mine. In fact I haven’t seen it in full since probably 2012 when I did my countdown to SF.
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 200
    chrisisall wrote: »

    DraxCucumber gets A View To A Kill then. :-L

    Well….
    Even though it’s flaws are glaring, it’s a movie with at least some things I highly enjoy, which can’t be said for TND. Bond ‘helping’ Tibbett by removing the umbrella from the pile of luggage he’s carrying is one of my favourite gags in the whole series - so understated yet hilarious (to me).

    And Zorin / Mayday is a cracking team of villains, one of my favourites. Carver / Stamper is probably my least favourite
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 200

    In a series with a number of ill-conceived misfires, that's quite something.

    Even the most ill-conceived Bond movies offer me some manner of pleasure. Not really the case with TND. I can’t think of a single reason I’d want to sit down and watch it
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,051
    And if I had to pick one Bond movie to be forever removed from my sight, never to see be again, it would be TND

    In a series with a number of ill-conceived misfires, that's quite something.

    Quite right.

    TWINE would be mine. In fact I haven’t seen it in full since probably 2012 when I did my countdown to SF.

    I actually didn't like TWINE when it came out, but then I read all the novels & I appreciated what they were attempting there. Now I quite enjoy it, even if I objectively see it as a guilty pleasure (sort-of) misfire.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 6,686
    And if I had to pick one Bond movie to be forever removed from my sight, never to see be again, it would be TND

    In a series with a number of ill-conceived misfires, that's quite something.

    Quite right.

    TWINE would be mine. In fact I haven’t seen it in full since probably 2012 when I did my countdown to SF.

    Mine would probably be either TMWTGG, DAF or AVTAK. They're my least revisited films of the series for a variety of reasons. Even DAD gets seen by myself more often - despite it being an inferior film in many ways.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,051
    And if I had to pick one Bond movie to be forever removed from my sight, never to see be again, it would be TND

    In a series with a number of ill-conceived misfires, that's quite something.

    Quite right.

    TWINE would be mine. In fact I haven’t seen it in full since probably 2012 when I did my countdown to SF.

    Mine would probably be either TMWTGG, DAF or AVTAK. They're my least revisited films of the series for a variety of reasons. Even DAD gets seen by myself more often - despite it being an inferior film in many ways.

    I *love* TMWTGG. My, look at how diverse we are...
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython Alpha Quadrant
    Posts: 5,520
    Me every time I see love for TMWTGG expressed:

    ryan-reynolds-but-why.gif

    I’m sure some feel that way for SKYFALL, whereas I love it and think it’s the best Bond film since the 60s. Have since it’s release, still so today.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,051
    Me every time I see love for TMWTGG expressed:

    ryan-reynolds-but-why.gif
    It's fun. It has a fantastic ending. Christopher Lee.

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython Alpha Quadrant
    Posts: 5,520
    I can get the Christopher Lee part.

    And yet I thought he was completely wasted. He deserved much more than given.
  • chrisisall wrote: »
    If I had to spend the rest of my life on a desert island and I was only allowed to have ONE Bond movie there, what would I pick? My favourite? No, I'd pick the one with the highest re-watchablity factor, and the one that's the most sheer fun. Tomorrow Never Dies, on both counts!

    You really have something here, I like it.
  • edited November 2021 Posts: 12,590
    Yeah Christopher Lee being so good just makes me angry to be honest. A deadly cat and mouse between Bond and the world’s greatest assassin. They took that premise and that actor and wasted both on possibly the most half arsed film of the series. Say what you will about DAD, but at least they were genuinely trying. Almost everything about TMWTGG is just lazy imo. Even the Barry score is weaker than his other efforts.
    chrisisall wrote: »
    And if I had to pick one Bond movie to be forever removed from my sight, never to see be again, it would be TND

    In a series with a number of ill-conceived misfires, that's quite something.

    Quite right.

    TWINE would be mine. In fact I haven’t seen it in full since probably 2012 when I did my countdown to SF.

    I actually didn't like TWINE when it came out, but then I read all the novels & I appreciated what they were attempting there. Now I quite enjoy it, even if I objectively see it as a guilty pleasure (sort-of) misfire.

    I’ve always loved TWINE. It’s a bit rough around the edges in parts, but I think it has one of the best plots of the series, quite possibly the best PTS, I like the theme song, I think Arnold started to come into his own (controversial maybe because of the techno elements but I’ll take it over TND’s Barry pastiche), Elektra is one of my favourite villains, Renard makes a great tortured lackey, and I thought Brosnan was at his best. I know he gets criticism for overacting in that one. But I’ve always liked how colourful his performances were (Goldeneye is his weakest performance for me, because he just seems nervous in comparison), and I liked the broody and passionate side of his Bond, so I enjoyed seeing that explored more in this film. And the bankers office escape, the bit where he pins a henchman to the bar with his own knife and then finishes his martini, and the bit where he kills Elektra are worth a thousand pain faces imo.

    It’s rough around the edges in parts. But I’ve always enjoyed it despite that because of the originality of it, and I’ve never really thought its commitment to the old formula undermined that originality as most seem to (I do wish it had ended with Elektra’s death, but I don’t mind the gadgets or Christmas). It’s like a proto-Craig film in some ways. And while it isn’t as good as Craig’s best, I think you’ve got to give it credit for getting there first.
  • Junglist_1985Junglist_1985 Los Angeles
    Posts: 479
    We should start the above in a new thread: Which Bond film would you give up forever?

    I actually have to think this through…
  • I don’t think I could ever really give up any Bond film (sad as that may sound)...but I’m more than willing to throw DAF under the bus
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing South Florida
    Posts: 3,875
    Licence to Kill

    I'll fire that film into the sun
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,051
    Imprinting.
    It's all about imprinting.
    When I was 11 I got my Mom to take me to a cool movie called Diamonds Are Forever. My first Bond movie. When I was 13 I went to Live And Let Die on my own. Who were the director & writer on those? Yep. That set the tone for my Bond.
    It was many, many years later that I read the novels. Still, cinematic Bond (for me) needs 'absurdity within control'. And TND is right there.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,051
    Licence to Kill

    I'll fire that film into the sun

    To increase its inner brilliance, no doubt!
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython Alpha Quadrant
    edited November 2021 Posts: 5,520
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Imprinting.
    It's all about imprinting.
    When I was 11 I got my Mom to take me to a cool movie called Diamonds Are Forever. My first Bond movie. When I was 13 I went to Live And Let Die on my own. Who were the director & writer on those? Yep. That set the tone for my Bond.
    It was many, many years later that I read the novels. Still, cinematic Bond (for me) needs 'absurdity within control'. And TND is right there.

    And yet TND was my first Bond when I was 11 years old and failed to imprint.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited November 2021 Posts: 3,916
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    Tomorrow Never Dies's mission was simply to be a traditional Bond film...maybe that's its greatest sin....and if that's a sin, I won't mind being a sinner, because I absolutely love everything about TND....I could watch it and have watched it thrice a day...countless times!

    Yay! Let’s keep it up people and turn this thread into a TND appreciation thread!

    Of course!!!! It's turning into it seamlessly! :D
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 3,916
    M16_Cart wrote: »
    I keep checking my notifications to see if my other comments get replies, but it's always just this topic

    It's more fun at the moment to talk about topics like this than to debate the merits of Bond dying, I feel. We're not covering any new ground with this thread but at least it's generally a bit lighter.

    Honestly!!! I couldn't agree more.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,051
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Imprinting.
    It's all about imprinting.
    When I was 11 I got my Mom to take me to a cool movie called Diamonds Are Forever. My first Bond movie. When I was 13 I went to Live And Let Die on my own. Who were the director & writer on those? Yep. That set the tone for my Bond.
    It was many, many years later that I read the novels. Still, cinematic Bond (for me) needs 'absurdity within control'. And TND is right there.

    And yet TND was my first Bond when I was 11 years old and failed to imprint.
    Well, yeah, sometimes imprinting works in reverse. My first movie as a little kid was Mary Poppins, and I hated it. Made my parents leave before it was over. To this day I can't sit through it, but many seem to love it. Go figure ...
  • We should start the above in a new thread: Which Bond film would you give up forever?

    I actually have to think this through…

    I could actually live without seeing any of the Craig Bond films ever again.Aside from CR of course,which is an easy top 5 Bond film for me.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2021 Posts: 17,051
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    We should start the above in a new thread: Which Bond film would you give up forever?

    I actually have to think this through…

    I could actually live without seeing any of the Craig Bond films ever again.Aside from CR of course,which is an easy top 5 Bond film for me.

    I count QOS as an excellent coda for CR, myself. It's in my top five ...
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython Alpha Quadrant
    Posts: 5,520
    If AVTAK, TMWTGG, DAD, TND, and TWINE didn’t exist, QOS would be right at the bottom for me.
  • chrisisall wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    We should start the above in a new thread: Which Bond film would you give up forever?

    I actually have to think this through…

    I could actually live without seeing any of the Craig Bond films ever again.Aside from CR of course,which is an easy top 5 Bond film for me.

    I count QOS as an excellent coda for CR, myself. It's in my top five ...

    I respectfully disagree but I’m glad you like it as much as you do..

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,051
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    We should start the above in a new thread: Which Bond film would you give up forever?

    I actually have to think this through…

    I could actually live without seeing any of the Craig Bond films ever again.Aside from CR of course,which is an easy top 5 Bond film for me.

    I count QOS as an excellent coda for CR, myself. It's in my top five ...

    I respectfully disagree but I’m glad you like it as much as you do..

    Admit it, you think I'm an idiot. I'm okay with that. I also like Batman & Robin, DAF, and Supernova. Some things are so bad they're great IMHO.
  • QoS? Fine. DAF? Each to their own. Batman & Robin??? You're just saying that to get a reaction, aren't you?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2021 Posts: 17,051
    QoS? Fine. DAF? Each to their own. Batman & Robin??? You're just saying that to get a reaction, aren't you?

    No, it's hilarious. The 60's Batman makes me smirk; Batman & Robin makes me laugh out loud. But for the Record, I hate Batman Forever. It's not bad enough to be funny, and it not good enough to be any good.
  • Posts: 10,816
    I've grown a guilty pleasure appreciation for Batman & Robin over time. Used to just absolutely hate it, but when I started to just let loose and laugh at all its bizarreness and ridiculousness, it became a lot of fun. Ended up preferring it a lot over Batman Forever, which tries to hard to be serious and just doesn't go all-in Looney Tunes yet like the sequel.
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 16,117
    It also has a great score by Elliot Goldenthal which is worth the price of admission.
  • I can actually enjoy both Batman Forever and Batman & Robin quite a lot for the zany, colorful, over-the-top glorious campfests that they are. Goldenthal's music, some inspired casting, a tasteful amount of Dutch angles, and puns upon puns upon Batcards upon more puns equate to a good time at the cinema. I enjoy sitting down to both of these more than I do The Dark Knight. Serious face emoji. I know they're about as healthy for me as the McDonald's menu, but goshdarnit I don't care.

    I will note, however (per the topic of this thread), that I enjoy Batman Forever and Batman & Robin on an entirely different level from Tomorrow Never Dies. BF and B&R are glorious messes. TND is peak 007.
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