NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,518
    Nice take.

    I make a comment about that earlier; poetic that not only it's British missiles, but an MI6-made weapon (Heracles) that ultimately has Bond decide to cash in his chips.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,009
    M killed Bond! ;)
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,518
    Judi M: "I did get one thing right..."

    Fiennes M: "You have permission to fire..."

    I know shifting leadership can be tough on an employee, but... yikes.
  • Posts: 12,243
    It is an interesting point of discussion exactly to consider who it was that really "killed" Bond. Did M kill him by making the order? Did Bond kill himself by asking for them to make the order when he did? Are the people who just did their orders to blame the most? Did Safin mortally wound Bond with the multiple gunshots anyway? He certainly at least killed him mentally first before he did physically.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,518
    FoxRox wrote: »
    It is an interesting point of discussion exactly to consider who it was that really "killed" Bond. Did M kill him by making the order? Did Bond kill himself by asking for them to make the order when he did? Are the people who just did their orders to blame the most? Did Safin mortally wound Bond with the multiple gunshots anyway? He certainly at least killed him mentally first before he did physically.

    Great point. The proximate cause here is certainly extremely unclear.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    FoxRox wrote: »
    It is an interesting point of discussion exactly to consider who it was that really "killed" Bond. Did M kill him by making the order? Did Bond kill himself by asking for them to make the order when he did? Are the people who just did their orders to blame the most? Did Safin mortally wound Bond with the multiple gunshots anyway? He certainly at least killed him mentally first before he did physically.

    Great point. The proximate cause here is certainly extremely unclear.

    The writers-? *ducks* ;)
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited November 2021 Posts: 8,009
    Judi M: "I did get one thing right..."

    Fiennes M: "You have permission to fire..."

    I know shifting leadership can be tough on an employee, but... yikes.

    :))
    FoxRox wrote: »
    It is an interesting point of discussion exactly to consider who it was that really "killed" Bond. Did M kill him by making the order? Did Bond kill himself by asking for them to make the order when he did? Are the people who just did their orders to blame the most? Did Safin mortally wound Bond with the multiple gunshots anyway? He certainly at least killed him mentally first before he did physically.

    For me, I'd put it down to M's bad judgment - it was his creation of Heracles, despite objections, that kickstarts the plot. I don't have an issue with that, I think it's wonderfully complex and the fact that the decision ultimately lands on Bond's shoulders is strangely poetic, as others have noted. But my reading of the scenario is that it wasn't Safin's bullets that provided the mortal blow that led to Bond's demise. Sure, they certainly didn't help, but it's the nanabots in his system that truly compelled Bond to sacrifice himself.

    Fiennes was superb, by the way. I don't think even someone like Dench could have played the stubborn, borderline arrogant facade that hid guilt and insecurity the way Fiennes did. And it's even more interesting that Mallory ended up being this way, considering he was introduced as the man behind accountability.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited November 2021 Posts: 4,343
    From a narrative standpoint the whole point of the scene, and that’s why it’s so heartbreaking, is that James decides to peacefully embrace death in order to save and protect his family. It was his choice.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited November 2021 Posts: 2,895
    matt_u wrote: »
    From a narrative standpoint the whole point of the scene, and that’s why it’s so heartbreaking, is that James decides to peacefully embrace death in order to save and protect his family. It was his choice.
    This. If Safin hadn't closed the blast doors, Bond would've left the island in time. He didn't call the missile strike with the intention of being killed in it. For the same reason, M didn't kill him either - Bond had 'plenty of time' to escape when M gave the order. Safin didn't kill him - he was in a bad way (!) but they weren't fatal wounds and he wasn't bleeding out or even critically weak from blood loss. He can't have been - after all, Bond re-opened the blast doors and climbed up a 30-ft metal ladder after being shot. That's not someone on the brink of karking it. The nanobots didn't kill him - they were fatal to Madeleine and Mathilde, but harmless to Bond himself. He'd saved his family and he knew that his death would ensure that they'd remain safe. Agree with matt_u: he put Madeleine and Mathilde's lives before his. Bond's choice.
  • Venutius wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    From a narrative standpoint the whole point of the scene, and that’s why it’s so heartbreaking, is that James decides to peacefully embrace death in order to save and protect his family. It was his choice.
    This. If Safin hadn't closed the blast doors, Bond would've left the island in time. He didn't call the missile strike with the intention of being killed in it. For the same reason, M didn't kill him either - Bond had 'plenty of time' to escape when M gave the order. Safin didn't kill him - he was in a bad way (!) but they weren't fatal wounds and he wasn't bleeding out or even critically weak from blood loss. He can't have been - after all, Bond re-opened the blast doors and climbed up a 30-ft metal ladder after being shot. That's not someone on the brink of karking it. The nanobots didn't kill him - they were fatal to Madeleine and Mathilde, but harmless to Bond himself. He'd saved his family and he knew that his death would ensure that they'd remain safe. Agree with matt_u: he put Madeleine and Mathilde's lives before his. Bond's choice.

    As Madeleine says in SP, we always have a choice.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    BlondeBond wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    From a narrative standpoint the whole point of the scene, and that’s why it’s so heartbreaking, is that James decides to peacefully embrace death in order to save and protect his family. It was his choice.
    This. If Safin hadn't closed the blast doors, Bond would've left the island in time. He didn't call the missile strike with the intention of being killed in it. For the same reason, M didn't kill him either - Bond had 'plenty of time' to escape when M gave the order. Safin didn't kill him - he was in a bad way (!) but they weren't fatal wounds and he wasn't bleeding out or even critically weak from blood loss. He can't have been - after all, Bond re-opened the blast doors and climbed up a 30-ft metal ladder after being shot. That's not someone on the brink of karking it. The nanobots didn't kill him - they were fatal to Madeleine and Mathilde, but harmless to Bond himself. He'd saved his family and he knew that his death would ensure that they'd remain safe. Agree with matt_u: he put Madeleine and Mathilde's lives before his. Bond's choice.

    As Madeleine says in SP, we always have a choice.

    Yes. And my choice is to never watch this (NTTD) finely produced & fetidly written mess of a movie ever again.
  • chrisisall wrote: »
    BlondeBond wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    From a narrative standpoint the whole point of the scene, and that’s why it’s so heartbreaking, is that James decides to peacefully embrace death in order to save and protect his family. It was his choice.
    This. If Safin hadn't closed the blast doors, Bond would've left the island in time. He didn't call the missile strike with the intention of being killed in it. For the same reason, M didn't kill him either - Bond had 'plenty of time' to escape when M gave the order. Safin didn't kill him - he was in a bad way (!) but they weren't fatal wounds and he wasn't bleeding out or even critically weak from blood loss. He can't have been - after all, Bond re-opened the blast doors and climbed up a 30-ft metal ladder after being shot. That's not someone on the brink of karking it. The nanobots didn't kill him - they were fatal to Madeleine and Mathilde, but harmless to Bond himself. He'd saved his family and he knew that his death would ensure that they'd remain safe. Agree with matt_u: he put Madeleine and Mathilde's lives before his. Bond's choice.

    As Madeleine says in SP, we always have a choice.

    Yes. And my choice is to never watch this (NTTD) finely produced & fetidly written mess of a movie ever again.

    Touché. Ha.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,255
    chrisisall wrote: »
    BlondeBond wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    From a narrative standpoint the whole point of the scene, and that’s why it’s so heartbreaking, is that James decides to peacefully embrace death in order to save and protect his family. It was his choice.
    This. If Safin hadn't closed the blast doors, Bond would've left the island in time. He didn't call the missile strike with the intention of being killed in it. For the same reason, M didn't kill him either - Bond had 'plenty of time' to escape when M gave the order. Safin didn't kill him - he was in a bad way (!) but they weren't fatal wounds and he wasn't bleeding out or even critically weak from blood loss. He can't have been - after all, Bond re-opened the blast doors and climbed up a 30-ft metal ladder after being shot. That's not someone on the brink of karking it. The nanobots didn't kill him - they were fatal to Madeleine and Mathilde, but harmless to Bond himself. He'd saved his family and he knew that his death would ensure that they'd remain safe. Agree with matt_u: he put Madeleine and Mathilde's lives before his. Bond's choice.

    As Madeleine says in SP, we always have a choice.

    Yes. And my choice is to never watch this (NTTD) finely produced & fetidly written mess of a movie ever again.

    So why announce it? Just Do It!
  • Posts: 2,400
    chrisisall wrote: »
    BlondeBond wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    From a narrative standpoint the whole point of the scene, and that’s why it’s so heartbreaking, is that James decides to peacefully embrace death in order to save and protect his family. It was his choice.
    This. If Safin hadn't closed the blast doors, Bond would've left the island in time. He didn't call the missile strike with the intention of being killed in it. For the same reason, M didn't kill him either - Bond had 'plenty of time' to escape when M gave the order. Safin didn't kill him - he was in a bad way (!) but they weren't fatal wounds and he wasn't bleeding out or even critically weak from blood loss. He can't have been - after all, Bond re-opened the blast doors and climbed up a 30-ft metal ladder after being shot. That's not someone on the brink of karking it. The nanobots didn't kill him - they were fatal to Madeleine and Mathilde, but harmless to Bond himself. He'd saved his family and he knew that his death would ensure that they'd remain safe. Agree with matt_u: he put Madeleine and Mathilde's lives before his. Bond's choice.

    As Madeleine says in SP, we always have a choice.

    Yes. And my choice is to never watch this (NTTD) finely produced & fetidly written mess of a movie ever again.

    And that was relevant to the ongoing discussion...how, exactly?

    I'm actually getting sick of this. The NTTD haters keep screaming about how much the movie sucks, derailing others' conversations and enjoyment for no discernible reason, and then proceed to claim they're the ones being "attacked" when their pettiness is met with frustration.

    Like the movie or don't, I'm indifferent to that; behaving like this is something I find infuriating.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson Moderator
    Posts: 2,161
    It’s coming from both sides at a ridiculous and embarrassing level. Take it from some one more or less in the middle.
  • Posts: 2,400
    Really? Because I've seen a lot of measured, well-thought out posts from people who don't like the film, and I don't recall any of them being met with glib one-liner responses from people who like the film. I don't recall anyone who likes the film derailing a productive discussion with some non-sequitur about how they're going to rewatch the film over and over again. Perhaps I've missed that and I'm happy to be proven wrong.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,255
    chrisisall wrote: »
    BlondeBond wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    From a narrative standpoint the whole point of the scene, and that’s why it’s so heartbreaking, is that James decides to peacefully embrace death in order to save and protect his family. It was his choice.
    This. If Safin hadn't closed the blast doors, Bond would've left the island in time. He didn't call the missile strike with the intention of being killed in it. For the same reason, M didn't kill him either - Bond had 'plenty of time' to escape when M gave the order. Safin didn't kill him - he was in a bad way (!) but they weren't fatal wounds and he wasn't bleeding out or even critically weak from blood loss. He can't have been - after all, Bond re-opened the blast doors and climbed up a 30-ft metal ladder after being shot. That's not someone on the brink of karking it. The nanobots didn't kill him - they were fatal to Madeleine and Mathilde, but harmless to Bond himself. He'd saved his family and he knew that his death would ensure that they'd remain safe. Agree with matt_u: he put Madeleine and Mathilde's lives before his. Bond's choice.

    As Madeleine says in SP, we always have a choice.

    Yes. And my choice is to never watch this (NTTD) finely produced & fetidly written mess of a movie ever again.

    And that was relevant to the ongoing discussion...how, exactly?

    I'm actually getting sick of this. The NTTD haters keep screaming about how much the movie sucks, derailing others' conversations and enjoyment for no discernible reason, and then proceed to claim they're the ones being "attacked" when their pettiness is met with frustration.

    Like the movie or don't, I'm indifferent to that; behaving like this is something I find infuriating.

    Absolutely agree @StirredNotShaken … Debate the film. Argue points. But this is getting seriously childish at this point. Like it? Hate it? But the troll bombing is becoming silly…
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 2,895
    Showing Bond's death was always going to be massively divisive, though. I think the various reactions are entirely understandable and I don't at all mind reading the opposing views from each side. I genuinely think there's good points on both sides of the discussion.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    I would have accused the filmmakers of cowardice if they left Bond’s fate vague by not showing his moment of death.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited November 2021 Posts: 2,895
    Yeah, I should've said 'having Bond die', not 'showing his death' - but agreed on that point: if they'd pulled the punch at the last second, it would've diluted the impact (I don't mean the impact of a missile to the face, you will understand...) ;)
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    LOL, all you guys made fun of us fans of SPECTRE, and now you can't deal with us returning the favour with NTTD. Enhance your calm...
  • edited November 2021 Posts: 2,400
    chrisisall wrote: »
    LOL, all you guys made fun of us fans of SPECTRE, and now you can't deal with us returning the favour with NTTD. Enhance your calm...

    Please kindly show me where you and another SPECTRE fan (or really any two or more SPECTRE fans) were having a productive conversation about an element of the film, and I came barging in with a non-sequitur about how "fetid" SPECTRE is.

    I also think it's patently ridiculous to outright admit to a large group of this forum's users that you're making fun of them, only to immediately follow that up with the words "enhance your calm."
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited November 2021 Posts: 8,255
    Venutius wrote: »
    Showing Bond's death was always going to be massively divisive, though. I think the various reactions are entirely understandable and I don't at all mind reading the opposing views from each side. I genuinely think there's good points on both sides of the discussion.

    I had a chat today with a most Telly Savalas-looking member of this forum… and he mentioned this film, NTTD, as being the most divisive of the Bond films… Of course it is: Bond died!!!

    And this affects the hardcore Bond fandom more than the general audience. In a few years time they’ll be wondering if the last Bond film was No Time To Thunder-Day.

    But for the more passionate Bond fan, by and large, we are here on this site. And I suppose a heavy majority of us can accept dissenting views. Most of these people can hear the others out and respect while disagreeing.

    And then there are the trolls… who seem to escape via thinly veiled humour?
    [LOL, all you guys made fun of us fans of SPECTRE, and now you can't deal with us returning the favour with NTTD. Enhance your calm.../quote]

    Who is “us”? Do you have some army or militia? And what the hell are you saying?
    This has gone beyond the pale.
    😂
    It’s a film. You hate or love it but in respect to all (lovers or haters), dont fall to drive by trolling
  • brinkeguthriebrinkeguthrie Piz Gloria
    Posts: 1,400
    My take FWIW; thought it was a terrific looking movie; super production values. Liked Paloma a lot. Liked the Q interaction with MP and JB. M was great. (Profanity, even!) I liked it overall, until the ending. I wish they hadn't done what they did. Just seems wrong. Let him ride off into the sunset in the Vantage, saying to her, "NOW I'm done." Double meaning; as a Double Oh, and for Craig in the role. We all know 'JB will return;' what's the point here? I'll buy the DVD on 12/20, but I don't think I'll ever watch it all the way thru to the missiles hitting again. I can't view that. So now how are they going to bring in a new guy for #26? "Forget that DC got blown up, we're starting over". (Again.) I hope they keep Fiennes, Harris and Whishaw.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    chrisisall wrote: »
    LOL, all you guys made fun of us fans of SPECTRE, and now you can't deal with us returning the favour with NTTD. Enhance your calm...

    Please kindly show me where you and another SPECTRE fan (or really any two or more SPECTRE fans) were having a productive conversation about an element of the film, and I came barging in with a non-sequitur about how "fetid" SPECTRE is.

    I also think it's patently ridiculous to outright admit to a large group of this forum's users that you're making fun of them, only to immediately follow that up with the words "enhance your calm."

    I say enhance your calm because it's all opinions here. We are not discussing real world issues. Barging in is an internet thing. If NTTD isn't 'fetid' then what are you reacting to? It's all in fun here.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,382
    My take FWIW; thought it was a terrific looking movie; super production values. Liked Paloma a lot. Liked the Q interaction with MP and JB. M was great. (Profanity, even!) I liked it overall, until the ending. I wish they hadn't done what they did. Just seems wrong. Let him ride off into the sunset in the Vantage, saying to her, "NOW I'm done." Double meaning; as a Double Oh, and for Craig in the role. We all know 'JB will return;' what's the point here? I'll buy the DVD on 12/20, but I don't think I'll ever watch it all the way thru to the missiles hitting again. I can't view that. So now how are they going to bring in a new guy for #26? "Forget that DC got blown up, we're starting over". (Again.) I hope they keep Fiennes, Harris and Whishaw.

    I'll buy it and shut it off when he's making Mathilde breakfast.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,255
    chrisisall wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    LOL, all you guys made fun of us fans of SPECTRE, and now you can't deal with us returning the favour with NTTD. Enhance your calm...

    Please kindly show me where you and another SPECTRE fan (or really any two or more SPECTRE fans) were having a productive conversation about an element of the film, and I came barging in with a non-sequitur about how "fetid" SPECTRE is.

    I also think it's patently ridiculous to outright admit to a large group of this forum's users that you're making fun of them, only to immediately follow that up with the words "enhance your calm."

    I say enhance your calm because it's all opinions here. We are not discussing real world issues. Barging in is an internet thing. If NTTD isn't 'fetid' then what are you reacting to? It's all in fun here.

    I believe on another thread you admitted you had continued and rising anger about NTTD.
    Perhaps instead of projecting onto a bunch of strangers, it’s you who should chill about a movie? You don’t like it. Fine. No biggie! In a few years a new bond film will come along…
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited November 2021 Posts: 7,518
    As a big fan of NTTD, I honestly found @chrisisall comments entertaining. Embrace the other side, fans! His opinion is that it's "fetid", I don't even know what that really means, it's just the man's opinion.

    I think I'm only making this comment because I'm trying, myself, not to get too reactive towards the opinions of others.

    We're all James Bond fans, we're all family at the end of the day.

    @Last_Rat_Standing, if you turn the film off when Bond makes Mathilde breakfast, power to you, I get it. It's not something that's ever been in a Bond story before, so it's easy to understand why you don't feel it belongs. For me, it's Bond cutting an apple for a child who said she's hungry, and that's Bond enough for me. I think it's worthwhile trying to embrace the opinions of others; the community is richer for it.
  • edited November 2021 Posts: 214
    As a big fan of NTTD, I honestly found @chrisisall comments entertaining. Embrace the other side, fans! His opinion is that it's "fetid", I don't even know what that really means.

    It means smelling really unpleasant. I've seen a rock musician pull out a garbage bag with a dead cat inside on stage, open it up, and inhale deeply. He got off on it, it smelled terrible but it gave him a high. Others seem to get that same high by inhaling what they consider to be the acrid, or 'fetid' scent of NTTD, only they feel the need to share that experience here, ad infinitum, much to the chagrin of others.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,382
    As a big fan of NTTD, I honestly found @chrisisall comments entertaining. Embrace the other side, fans! His opinion is that it's "fetid", I don't even know what that really means, it's just the man's opinion.

    I think I'm only making this comment because I'm trying, myself, not to get too reactive towards the opinions of others.

    We're all James Bond fans, we're all family at the end of the day.

    @Last_Rat_Standing, if you turn the film off when Bond makes Mathilde breakfast, power to you, I get it. It's not something that's ever been in a Bond story before, so it's easy to understand why you don't feel it belongs. For me, it's Bond cutting an apple for a child who said she's hungry, and that's Bond enough for me. I think it's worthwhile trying to embrace the opinions of others; the community is richer for it.

    My point is not him making breakfast for her. It's just a much happier ending than the actual end, which is what I was hoping for as the 3rd act progressed.
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