Was SPECTRE a disappointment?

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Comments

  • edited September 2021 Posts: 1,215
    It’s kind of tragic because where Sam Mendes really shines is telling stories about relationships and families and getting great performances in those character moments. He really should have been set up to knock this one out of the park with actors like Seydoux and Waltz across from Craig and the whole “Daddy issues” thing of Madeleine basically falling in love with an assassin like her father and Bond’s upbringing with a resentful Oberhauser (and quite possibly how Bond’s relationship with Oberhauser’s father had shaped him) but the script isn’t interested in any of that and instead doubles down on all the things that Sam Mendes isn’t that good at which is tongue and cheek humour and genre tropes.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    That’s why Mendes asked for more script development, because he knew it wasn’t clicking. EON wouldn’t budge.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Having just rewatched all the Craig films in quick succession, I must say I was pleasantly surprised how much I liked SP.

    Sam Mendes is a talented director, but for me SF always felt a bit fan fiction. It also lacked atmosphere and interesting locations.

    SP on the other hand is full of mystery and atmosphere. It gives us fabulous Bondian locations and adds two great Bond girls, something sorely missing from the previous entry, in Bellucci and Seydoux.

    Mendes, at least for my money, first made a Bond-Batman cross-over, and then with SP, he actually made a Bond film, and a very good one at that.

    Lovely!

    The turning point for me with Spectre was really just moving beyond the (vast) missed opportunities one might have imagined for it, and enjoying what it actually is. It's pretty great. It could have been uncontroversially amazing, but I'll take controversially amazing in a pinch. ;)

    Oh yeah- and isn't 'imperfect' a Bond trope by now? The last uncontroversially amazing film was Goldfinger...
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Having just watched it a again for the first time in a while in prep for tomorrow's viewing of NTTD at 12pm I can say with no hesitation that SPECTRE is still a major disappointment and therefore as I have invested in this era and I felt that SF left us in a great place, that due to the way that SP fumbles the ball so spectacularly and expensively that it will languish at 24 and most definitely be 25 by tomorrow.

    Mendes should have moved on, he had one Bond in him and what a great film that was but this, after the PTS it is just dull and not one action sequence registers. The dialogue at times is utterly terrible, the supposed Mickey Mouse joke is embarrassing.

    The Bond and Hinx fight is quite enjoyable but as the rest of the film is just lacking totally in tension it's just lost momentum by then I just don't care.

    Waltz may well redeem himself with NTTD but I think more than ever he was just the wrong person for this, Hans Landa promised something but the dialogue was just so rubbish he was given and the whole Blohauser, Foster Brothergate business still remains to me unforgivable.

    I think the biggest shame as this will be a connected part of this 5 film arc and I think I'll be inclined to just watch the first 3 and skip to the last.

    Thought I hadn't heard Smith's caterwauling in sometime and it just gets worse, the most appalling Bond theme even taking Madonna's into account, just so wrong but the film deserves it, I wouldn't have wanted either Radiohead's Man Of War or Spectre attached to this train wreck.

    It can only go up from here and I'm pretty sure it will but tomorrow will be the proof of that.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,518
    Shardlake wrote: »
    Having just watched it a again for the first time in a while in prep for tomorrow's viewing of NTTD at 12pm I can say with no hesitation that SPECTRE is still a major disappointment and therefore as I have invested in this era and I felt that SF left us in a great place, that due to the way that SP fumbles the ball so spectacularly and expensively that it will languish at 24 and most definitely be 25 by tomorrow.

    Mendes should have moved on, he had one Bond in him and what a great film that was but this, after the PTS it is just dull and not one action sequence registers. The dialogue at times is utterly terrible, the supposed Mickey Mouse joke is embarrassing.

    The Bond and Hinx fight is quite enjoyable but as the rest of the film is just lacking totally in tension it's just lost momentum by then I just don't care.

    Waltz may well redeem himself with NTTD but I think more than ever he was just the wrong person for this, Hans Landa promised something but the dialogue was just so rubbish he was given and the whole Blohauser, Foster Brothergate business still remains to me unforgivable.

    I think the biggest shame as this will be a connected part of this 5 film arc and I think I'll be inclined to just watch the first 3 and skip to the last.

    Thought I hadn't heard Smith's caterwauling in sometime and it just gets worse, the most appalling Bond theme even taking Madonna's into account, just so wrong but the film deserves it, I wouldn't have wanted either Radiohead's Man Of War or Spectre attached to this train wreck.

    It can only go up from here and I'm pretty sure it will but tomorrow will be the proof of that.

    You say Waltz was the wrong person for this, but then go on to blame the writing and story.

    I agree that the writing and story are what let down the character of Blofeld in Spectre. Despite that, I think Waltz was a fantastic choice for the character, and given better writing and story, would have knocked it out of the park.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited September 2021 Posts: 4,548
    SP had all the pieces for a great Bond film. They were just misused and misplaced.

    1. The helicopter PTS...better suited for the final act and Bond's final confrontation with Hinx
    2. The safe house...a better place for Madeleine to be abducted.
    3. The lair...better as a macguffin. Imagine going all the way there to see Blofeld and it's just basically a satellite tracking facility with few people and nothing going on, but Blofeld attempts to imprison Bond and Madeleine there.
    4. Nine Eyes...should have been set up as more dastardly and British Parliament's vote, not the entire world's. Therefore...
    5. C's role is to establish this. When it fails...C is killed, like many Spectre agents are when they fail. C is then found dead, with his eyes gouged out (Hinx!). To get England to reconsider...
    6. Spectre goes with Plan B: a terrorist act (possibly in London). This is what Bond discovers and must thwart.
    7. We could have had a bombing threat, a kidnapped love interest, and a henchman on the prowl. TSWLM was the perfect template to fix SP's final act.

  • GatecrasherGatecrasher Classified
    Posts: 265
    TripAces wrote: »
    SP had all the pieces for a great Bond film. They were just misused and misplaced.

    1. The helicopter PTS...better suited for the final act and Bond's final confrontation with Hinx
    2. The safe house...a better place for Madeleine to be abducted.
    3. The lair...better as a macguffin. Imagine going all the way there to see Blofeld and it's just basically a satellite tracking facility with few people and nothing going on, but Blofeld attempts to imprison Bond and Madeleine there.
    4. Nine Eyes...should have been set up as more dastardly and British Parliament's vote, not the entire world's. Therefore...
    5. C's role is to establish this. When it fails...C is killed, like many Spectre agents are when they fail. C is then found dead, with his eyes gouged out (Hinx!). To get England to reconsider...
    6. Spectre goes with Plan B: a terrorist act (possibly in London). This is what Bond discovers and must thwart.
    7. We could have had a bombing threat, a kidnapped love interest, and a henchman on the prowl. TSWLM was the perfect template to fix SP's final act.

    Why didn’t we get this film instead?
  • Posts: 4,599
    I know this sounds childish but I saw it once at the cinema the day it was released and thats it.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited September 2021 Posts: 7,518
    TripAces wrote: »
    SP had all the pieces for a great Bond film. They were just misused and misplaced.

    1. The helicopter PTS...better suited for the final act and Bond's final confrontation with Hinx
    2. The safe house...a better place for Madeleine to be abducted.
    3. The lair...better as a macguffin. Imagine going all the way there to see Blofeld and it's just basically a satellite tracking facility with few people and nothing going on, but Blofeld attempts to imprison Bond and Madeleine there.
    4. Nine Eyes...should have been set up as more dastardly and British Parliament's vote, not the entire world's. Therefore...
    5. C's role is to establish this. When it fails...C is killed, like many Spectre agents are when they fail. C is then found dead, with his eyes gouged out (Hinx!). To get England to reconsider...
    6. Spectre goes with Plan B: a terrorist act (possibly in London). This is what Bond discovers and must thwart.
    7. We could have had a bombing threat, a kidnapped love interest, and a henchman on the prowl. TSWLM was the perfect template to fix SP's final act.

    Great ideas. Especially point 5.

    Agree with point 2 as well, always seemed weird she was just walking off to the shops or something after leaving Bond.

    Didn't we sort of get "kidnapped love interest" in the final act of Spectre?
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    edited October 2021 Posts: 648
    Not any more than Skyfall. I hated the turn the Craig era took starting with the Mendes movies. Everything in SF and SP feels disconnected from CR and QOS. CR and QOS put Bond into the real world, then SF came along and turned him into a kind-of meta Bond with a past and personality that was completely incongruent with the first two entries. Shoehorning Mr. White into SP didn't work at all. The stories and style are just way too different. To me it feels like Craig's "real" tenure was CR-QOS and the ones after that are parodies of Bond.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    See, I don’t quiet get that. For me, QOS is the one that actually sticks out, and CR fits better with the Mendes films. It’s really not as dark and serious as fans hype it out to be. Maybe it was thought of as such in 2006, coming right after the utterly silly DAD, and that pre-title is about as dour as it gets. But it still has loads of humor, Craig looks like he’s having a lot of fun, cracking chemistry with Eva Green, etc. I remember when SF was being promoted, Mendes talked about how he was actually following how CR established Craig’s run. And he was right, SF felt like a return to that CR mold.

    QOS on the other hand is utterly dry and dour. It lacks the light touch that CR/SF/SP maintained. It’s also the only film of the Craig era to not have the second unit action by Alexander Witt. Instead it was the second unit Paul Greengrass used in his Bourne films, along with the editors. So when news came of SF bringing back Witt and editor Stuart Baird, I knew the series was getting the course correction it needed for its 50th anniversary.

    It’s just too bad that Baird didn’t come back after SF. I wasn’t a fan of Lee Smith’s editing style in SP.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    Posts: 648
    To each his own, I guess. I agree that CR isn't dark at all, it's just more down-to-earth than the previous few Bonds, but "dour" is how I'd describe SF and SP, not QOS. I get that QOS is widely disliked due to its Bourne-ish qualities but I actually think it's more in the brisk, colorful style of DN, FRWL, and GF than most other Bonds.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    If you think SF/SP are that dour, yeah, to each their own. I can’t even put QOS in the same ballpark as Connery’s first three. It’s much more like LTK to me, but without the cheesy humor. They even rate back to back in my ranking of the films. LTK just edges out, because it at least had a more memorable villain whereas Greene is probably THE most boring of all.
  • quantumspectrequantumspectre argentina
    Posts: 61
    to me spectre is the perfect mix of somber drama and a few jokes. also i like the gothic tone,wish some new version of 007 fights the supernatural.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    I just noticed that SP is the fourth Bond movie to officially hit the $1 billion mark adjusting for inflation, after SF, TB and GF.
  • BelinusBelinus Scotland
    Posts: 48
    I was surprised when I joined here and found such a dislike for SP. Like most Bond films it had plot holes but I have always really enjoyed it.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    matt_u wrote: »
    I just noticed that SP is the fourth Bond movie to officially hit the $1 billion mark adjusting for inflation, after SF, TB and GF.

    Yeah, I suspect a lot of goodwill from SF had a part in its boost at the box office.

    Which actually refutes the idea that SF wasn’t popular. I’ve seen so many fans try playing that narrative, that the film was only a hit because of the 50th anniversary, the Olympics, etc. That no one could have liked the film for its own merits.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited October 2021 Posts: 2,897
    Ironically, Alexander Witt was the second unit director on The Bourne Identity - but QOS used the guy from the inferior sequels instead! Ah well. But I love QOS and agree with Slide_99 that it's a shame that EON pulled back from the path they were on with CR and QOS.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited October 2021 Posts: 8,000
    I’m glad they got away from that path of Bond begins. It worked for CR but was not viable in the long run.
  • 9IW9IW
    Posts: 59
    I rewatched last night in preparation for tonight's NTTD. For me, SP is a little dark and gritty. And I think that is true to Fleming's Bond, for the most part. So I like the dark and gritty, so long as we are treated to locations, sets, gadgets, action, etc. that make Bond fun as well. So far, so good. It really comes down to "does this Blofeld motivated by Daddy issues revelation ruin the movie?" It's an eye roll and a sigh for me. Not a get up and walk out moment. Honestly, I think the C/Spectre/M aspect could have been done so much better, and is more bothersome than the backstory issue. The film could have been better. They all could have.
  • Posts: 490
    I really enjoy Spectre but it basically tries to do everything Skyfall does but doesn’t do it as well. Also, it doesn’t really seem to know what kind of movie it wants to be. It tries to take the dramatic personal aspects of Skyfall and introduce a slightly less serious tone with a more confident Bond in his prime, but in a very hazy-looking moody film that feels very vintage. It also doesn’t have the momentum of Skyfall with M under attack. It’s more of a slow-burning mystery.

    It’s a strange combination and I do enjoy watching it but it doesn’t live up to Skyfall and I was really bummed when it seemed like it was going to be Daniel’s last. I do really love all the dark, gothic imagery and vibes in it though.

    Watching it a week before NTTD was such a whiplash. They really are night and day. NTTD has so much energy and color and drama that Spectre just lacked. I still think it’s a great film though.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,834
    As much as I love Hoyte van Hoytema and his other work, I would've loved to have seen Roger Deakins' version of Spectre.
  • Posts: 226
    GoldenGun wrote: »

    SP on the other hand is full of mystery and atmosphere. It gives us fabulous Bondian locations and adds two great Bond girls, something sorely missing from the previous entry, in Bellucci and Seydoux.

    Mendes, at least for my money, first made a Bond-Batman cross-over, and then with SP, he actually made a Bond film, and a very good one at that.

    Completely agree, Spectre was the first "classic Bond film" since TLD that contained all the elements you expect from a traditional Bond film and captured the feel of the Connery films. All of the other ones had some kind of "angle" like the many "this time it's personal" stories we got with LTK, GE and all of Craig's, plus "Bond goes to the XGames" in DAD. That's not a comment on the quality of those movies necessarily, I quite like CR and SF and CR is still the better movie. But to me SP was a welcome throwback that a true Bond fan should be able to like. I think a lot of the backlash came from newer fans who got into it with Craig's and wanted another vendetta.

  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,518
    I love all this love for Spectre, a truly enjoyable Bond film in my eyes, despite its problems.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited October 2021 Posts: 6,760
    CountJohn wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »

    SP on the other hand is full of mystery and atmosphere. It gives us fabulous Bondian locations and adds two great Bond girls, something sorely missing from the previous entry, in Bellucci and Seydoux.

    Mendes, at least for my money, first made a Bond-Batman cross-over, and then with SP, he actually made a Bond film, and a very good one at that.

    Completely agree, Spectre was the first "classic Bond film" since TLD that contained all the elements you expect from a traditional Bond film and captured the feel of the Connery films. All of the other ones had some kind of "angle" like the many "this time it's personal" stories we got with LTK, GE and all of Craig's, plus "Bond goes to the XGames" in DAD. That's not a comment on the quality of those movies necessarily, I quite like CR and SF and CR is still the better movie. But to me SP was a welcome throwback that a true Bond fan should be able to like. I think a lot of the backlash came from newer fans who got into it with Craig's and wanted another vendetta.

    I might actually agree with that statement. In any case I find this one to be the one film in Craig’s tenure that you feel wants to be a ‘traditional’ Bond film and I quite like that.

    Doesn’t mean I don’t like the others as you also pointed out. Personally I loved CR and QOS, while I had a good first viewing of NTTD as well.
    I love all this love for Spectre, a truly enjoyable Bond film in my eyes, despite its problems.

    I must admit, I’m rather late to the show. Had an agreeable first viewing in the cinema, but over the years my feelings towards it became rather lukewarm. In the run-up to NTTD I ‘rediscovered’ its charms, now it’s a favourite of mine.

    Edit: I also feel nostalgic whenever I watch it, because I used to study in Rome just before they started shooting there. Even ran into SP’s location manager when I went out with my roommate. Remember spending quite some time with him and the people he was with. Friendly man, he did not like Belgium though :))
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited October 2021 Posts: 7,518
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    CountJohn wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »

    SP on the other hand is full of mystery and atmosphere. It gives us fabulous Bondian locations and adds two great Bond girls, something sorely missing from the previous entry, in Bellucci and Seydoux.

    Mendes, at least for my money, first made a Bond-Batman cross-over, and then with SP, he actually made a Bond film, and a very good one at that.

    Completely agree, Spectre was the first "classic Bond film" since TLD that contained all the elements you expect from a traditional Bond film and captured the feel of the Connery films. All of the other ones had some kind of "angle" like the many "this time it's personal" stories we got with LTK, GE and all of Craig's, plus "Bond goes to the XGames" in DAD. That's not a comment on the quality of those movies necessarily, I quite like CR and SF and CR is still the better movie. But to me SP was a welcome throwback that a true Bond fan should be able to like. I think a lot of the backlash came from newer fans who got into it with Craig's and wanted another vendetta.

    I might actually agree with that statement. In any case I find this one to be the one film in Craig’s tenure that you feel wants to be a ‘traditional’ Bond film and I quite like that.

    Doesn’t mean I don’t like the others as you also pointed out. Personally I loved CR and QOS, while I had a good first viewing of NTTD as well.
    I love all this love for Spectre, a truly enjoyable Bond film in my eyes, despite its problems.

    I must admit, I’m rather late to the show. Had an agreeable first viewing in the cinema, but over the years my feelings towards it became rather lukewarm. In the run-up to NTTD I ‘rediscovered’ its charms, now it’s a favourite of mine.

    Edit: I also feel nostalgic whenever I watch it, because I used to study in Rome just before they started shooting there. Even ran into SP’s location manager when I went out with my roommate. Remember spending quite some time with him and the people he was with. Friendly man, he did not like Belgium though :))

    Really cool! I remember my cousin was in Rome when they were filming and got some photos of the DB10 while they were filming the car chase. Really cool.

    Everything that takes place in Rome (up until the car chase) feels like an elaborate dance to me, and is really captivating to watch. The funeral, Lucia's home, the meeting... loved it.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,760
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    CountJohn wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »

    SP on the other hand is full of mystery and atmosphere. It gives us fabulous Bondian locations and adds two great Bond girls, something sorely missing from the previous entry, in Bellucci and Seydoux.

    Mendes, at least for my money, first made a Bond-Batman cross-over, and then with SP, he actually made a Bond film, and a very good one at that.

    Completely agree, Spectre was the first "classic Bond film" since TLD that contained all the elements you expect from a traditional Bond film and captured the feel of the Connery films. All of the other ones had some kind of "angle" like the many "this time it's personal" stories we got with LTK, GE and all of Craig's, plus "Bond goes to the XGames" in DAD. That's not a comment on the quality of those movies necessarily, I quite like CR and SF and CR is still the better movie. But to me SP was a welcome throwback that a true Bond fan should be able to like. I think a lot of the backlash came from newer fans who got into it with Craig's and wanted another vendetta.

    I might actually agree with that statement. In any case I find this one to be the one film in Craig’s tenure that you feel wants to be a ‘traditional’ Bond film and I quite like that.

    Doesn’t mean I don’t like the others as you also pointed out. Personally I loved CR and QOS, while I had a good first viewing of NTTD as well.
    I love all this love for Spectre, a truly enjoyable Bond film in my eyes, despite its problems.

    I must admit, I’m rather late to the show. Had an agreeable first viewing in the cinema, but over the years my feelings towards it became rather lukewarm. In the run-up to NTTD I ‘rediscovered’ its charms, now it’s a favourite of mine.

    Edit: I also feel nostalgic whenever I watch it, because I used to study in Rome just before they started shooting there. Even ran into SP’s location manager when I went out with my roommate. Remember spending quite some time with him and the people he was with. Friendly man, he did not like Belgium though :))

    Really cool! I remember my cousin was in Rome when they were filming and got some photos of the DB10 while they were filming the car chase. Really cool.

    Everything that takes place in Rome (up until the car chase) feels like an elaborate dance to me, and is really captivating to watch. The funeral, Lucia's home, the meeting... loved it.

    I think Lucia’s home is my favourite part of movie. Pouring herself a drink, putting on the dramatic music, the gunmen creeping up behind her, the silenced PPK and Bond telling her that they at least have time for a drink. Poetic stuff.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited October 2021 Posts: 7,518
    Precisely. Bond throwing the glasses on the floor, and their back and forth dialogue I also think is exceptional. Bond's suit, the room... just pure Bond IMO.

    I know his suit in these scenes is somewhat controversial (a disguise, maybe, to attend the funeral of a criminal), but I love it. With the boots, the gloves... truly looks like armour, which is just how Tom Ford would have it.
  • Posts: 1,879
    CountJohn wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »

    SP on the other hand is full of mystery and atmosphere. It gives us fabulous Bondian locations and adds two great Bond girls, something sorely missing from the previous entry, in Bellucci and Seydoux.

    Mendes, at least for my money, first made a Bond-Batman cross-over, and then with SP, he actually made a Bond film, and a very good one at that.

    Completely agree, Spectre was the first "classic Bond film" since TLD that contained all the elements you expect from a traditional Bond film and captured the feel of the Connery films. All of the other ones had some kind of "angle" like the many "this time it's personal" stories we got with LTK, GE and all of Craig's, plus "Bond goes to the XGames" in DAD. That's not a comment on the quality of those movies necessarily, I quite like CR and SF and CR is still the better movie. But to me SP was a welcome throwback that a true Bond fan should be able to like. I think a lot of the backlash came from newer fans who got into it with Craig's and wanted another vendetta.

    I'd say TND captured more of that classic Bond film feel with the least "this time it's personal" trappings as the Teri Hatcher thing was quickly over with and becomes a Bond races against time to save the world in the spirit of YOLT and TSWLM film. It hasn't gotten more classic Bond than that. GE did as well, only separated by the updating of the series for the '90s and Bond against a former Mi6 operative.

    That aside, how is SP not qualified as a this time it's personal film or angle, as you call it? It's Bond against Blofeld, who turns out to be practically family. That's where Bond fans find SP a frustrating experience along with the retconning of the previous villains into working for SPECTRE and some lame action scenes. CR did better with fewer yet creative and tough action scenes than more that never went anywhere SP had - in particular the Rome car chase, the Austria plane/Range Rover thing, the escape from Blofeld's base and that shoot Blofeld's chopper down from a mile away climax.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited October 2021 Posts: 2,897
    SP will always be hamstrung by the Brofeld malarkey. That's so undermining, I often wondered if that was Wurvis and Pade's revenge for being dumped in favour of Logan! The snowmobile chase would've been better than the plane sequence and someone on here once suggested that Hinx should've reappeared in the old MI6 building, with Bond having to get past him in order to save Madeleine, and finally killing him in the ruins of Dench's old office. I've never been able to unsee that - would've been perfect.
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